Primaluna preamp - measurements

[Rockdog]

I have a beautiful Primaluna Dialogue Premium preamp. I've recently evaluating going straight from dac to amp. I like both. Most music better through the tubes but some better straight pathed.

I'm just learning to read measurements and obviously the Primaluna is much higher distortion, much higher noise floor, and it generates second harmonics like that was it's job in life. I'm curious just how "bad" these Stereophile measurements are?
https://www.stereophile.com/content/primaluna-evo-400-preamplifier-associated-equipment

They gave this preamp a gushing A rating and claimed it measured well for a tube preamp. (This is a later model than mine, but essentially the same build, same quality parts, same tube compliments, so I think a safe bet that mine would test very closely)

I understand the tube vs. SS debate and not trying to start that again, but curious how you measurement gurus see this preamp? My power amp is very high gain so the preamp is staying on the low end of output voltage where measurements are better, nearly all the time.

It's beautifully hand built, point to point wiring, massive transformers, has civil output impedance, a remote.. its really a fine quality piece and has been flawless in performance, but considering selling and updating to all SS. Hmm.. tough cuz it does sound pretty, but my philosophy is changing..

 

[RickSanchez]

A couple ASR posts that can help get you started on understanding the measurements here, in case you haven't read these already:

1. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...derstanding-digital-audio-measurements.10523/
2. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-thresholds-of-amp-and-dac-measurements.5734/

From what you're describing and the way you're describing it, it would not surprise me that if you compared measurements between your Primaluna Dialogue Premium pre-amp and a well-measured SS pre-amp that your Primaluna would measure worse. Then you would need to figure out if the Primaluna measurement deficiencies -- if they exist -- are actually audible; they may or may not be.

But does it matter? It sounds like you're describing your preferences for the Primaluna, both in terms of sound (for some of your music at least) and the build quality, aesthetics, etc. If you like it: keep it! Even the measurement gurus here on ASR understand personal preferences, and many openly admit to preferring some gear that doesn't measure all that well.

In your case maybe it's a matter of adding a SS pre-amp and using whichever one you prefer, or just going straight from DAC to amp as you mention.

 

[Juhazi]

It is nice to have options! ( I have a PrimaLuna Prologue Three preamp in one set, chained with Minidsp 2x4HD and ClassA SS amp)

https://www.stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/1206luna/index.html

 

[Wes]

I have a beautiful Primaluna Dialogue Premium preamp. I've recently evaluating going straight from dac to amp. I like both. Most music better through the tubes but some better straight pathed.

I'm just learning to read measurements and obviously the Primaluna is much higher distortion, much higher noise floor, and it generates second harmonics like that was it's job in life. I'm curious just how "bad" these Stereophile measurements are?
https://www.stereophile.com/content/primaluna-evo-400-preamplifier-associated-equipment

They gave this preamp a gushing A rating and claimed it measured well for a tube preamp. (This is a later model than mine, but essentially the same build, same quality parts, same tube compliments, so I think a safe bet that mine would test very closely)

I understand the tube vs. SS debate and not trying to start that again, but curious how you measurement gurus see this preamp? My power amp is very high gain so the preamp is staying on the low end of output voltage where measurements are better, nearly all the time.

It's beautifully hand built, point to point wiring, massive transformers, has civil output impedance, a remote.. its really a fine quality piece and has been flawless in performance, but considering selling and updating to all SS. Hmm.. tough cuz it does sound pretty, but my philosophy is changing..

You know everything you need to know from the bolded sentence. You may want to switch it in or out for various albums.

Euphonic coloration is not accuracy, but you should do what sounds best. Besides, you like the looks.

 

[Rockdog]

Thanks all. Good thoughts. One thing that I know is discussed around these parts is just how audible certain non linearities really are and some of that is still quite open to debate. That's a more obscure understanding than just seeing that a SOTA SS preamp has far better measurements in every way.

I perceive the tube preamp as definitely having an audible difference as I describe, but we know that perception is influenced by more than reality. Just how far off, "audibly" from a proverbial straight wire is it by stereophile's measurements? Is it what would be considered a very colored tube preamp, or more subtle? Yes, I do enjoy it and its a pretty piece by audio jewelry standards, but does it objectively color sound a lot, or a little, or somewhere in-between?

BTW/ not stewing over this really, just a question that I can't quite answer from my own reading, yet.

 

[amirm]

I'm just learning to read measurements and obviously the Primaluna is much higher distortion, much higher noise floor, and it generates second harmonics like that was it's job in life. I'm curious just how "bad" these Stereophile measurements are?
https://www.stereophile.com/content/primaluna-evo-400-preamplifier-associated-equipment

They are bad. Unless you keep levels very low (listen at low volumes), it has a strong rise in distortion with level. It is 100 to 1000 times worse than any good pre-amp I measure.

Since your power amp has high gain, perhaps you are operating in the left side of that graph in which case, it is much less of a problem.

 

[Rockdog]

They are bad. Unless you keep levels very low (listen at low volumes), it has a strong rise in distortion with level. It is 100 to 1000 times worse than any good pre-amp I measure.

Since your power amp has high gain, perhaps you are operating in the left side of that graph in which case, it is much less of a problem.

Thanks Amir. ..or not

Come on.. 5% at 3v? Thats bad? (Rhetorical question) I don't see any other measurements here of a tube preamp to compare and am unlikely to take time comparing measurements elsewhere. Stereophile's JA says "measures well for a tube preamp" and also calls it a "distortion generator". I'm not sure about the former, but the latter is certainly true it appears. My volume pot position is rarely above 10 o'clock, so I'm likely on the left of the distortion scale but don't know that for sure.

I've now bought a DAC and upgraded speakers because of this site and will continue to switch back and forth listening to this preamp and see where I want to go next.

It's interesting though, how measurements don't necessarily, in this case or with a tube gain stage perhaps, tell you precisly how "bad" something will sound. I suppose looking at the harmonic signatures here gives a decent clue as to "what kind of bad".

I've done the Harmon "How to Listen" training several times, have a lifelong music background, and have been a 35 year audiophile. I'm no plated ear expert at all but I believe I have reasonably decent ears for my age. I don't think anyone would sit down at my system and say "that sounds "bad". My subjective perception is that the Primaluna has a sort of palpable presence in the lower to upper midrange that is really pleasant and feels "live" on vocals in particular.

I'm just starting to toy with room measurements to learn to EQ, and thats a yet unexplored frontier for me. I know Amir, you say this is essential in audio. Like most long term audiophiles I have an aversion to manipulating the signal in the digital realm but my mind is wide open. I realize the "tube sound" can be applied in the digital realm as well, but I still have literally everything to learn about EQ.

As said earlier, great to have choices!

Thanks and regards,

D

 

[Rockdog]

It is nice to have options! ( I have a PrimaLuna Prologue Three preamp in one set, chained with Minidsp 2x4HD and ClassA SS amp)

https://www.stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/1206luna/index.html

Jahazi, was it a leap to accept that the Minidsp does an analogue to digital conversion, and then back again, after your preamp? Do you notice any degradation from this?

Its amazingly capable for the price, but as a stodgy old audiophile I don't want anything "messing with my signal"... says the guy who's preamp pumps out 5% THD at full volume.. yes, choices!

 

[Alexanderc]

Come on.. 5% at 3v? Thats bad? (Rhetorical question) I don't see any other measurements here of a tube preamp to compare and am unlikely to take time comparing measurements elsewhere.

I don't imagine you'll see many tube preamps here--maybe the occasional budget item. It is actually 1% at 3v. Compared to this one that is approaching 0.0001% at 3v (I know you said that you were unlikely to take time comparing, but you also asked in your OP how we see this preamp--this is how). https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-pre90-review-preamplifier.18283/

I will echo most of the others here in that, if you like it, use it! It's a gorgeous piece of machinery and the pride of ownership is undoubtedly very high. You say you can hear a difference, but if you like the Primaluna better, then great! A person looking for recommendations for an even better sounding tube preamp probably won't get much feedback here.

 

[Juhazi]

Hi, all I can say that minidsp doesn't spoil the sound of PrimaLuna (it retains the distortion profile)
https://www.stereophile.com/content...lifier-seven-monoblock-amplifier-measurements

I need the dsp to get good match with the sub and main speakers. Eq both individually, set xo and timing. Totally different level of integration!

 

[Rockdog]

I don't imagine you'll see many tube preamps here--maybe the occasional budget item. It is actually 1% at 3v. Compared to this one that is approaching 0.0001% at 3v (I know you said that you were unlikely to take time comparing, but you also asked in your OP how we see this preamp--this is how). https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-pre90-review-preamplifier.18283/

I will echo most of the others here in that, if you like it, use it! It's a gorgeous piece of machinery and the pride of ownership is undoubtedly very high. You say you can hear a difference, but if you like the Primaluna better, then great! A person looking for recommendations for an even better sounding tube preamp probably won't get much feedback here.

Yes, a little off on reading the graph. Thanks, 1% sounds a lot better, pun intended. Used to believe that 1% was the audible threshold from reading the likes of Stereo Review probably 30 years ago. I know there's a recent thread here on audibly... I'd guess most of my listening level on the Primaluna is below 0.5%.

I'm in no hurry, but you're right, we buy this stuff to enjoy it. But, I suppose enjoy the journey of tweaking as well.

 

[Rockdog]

Hi, all I can say that minidsp doesn't spoil the sound of PrimaLuna (it retains the distortion profile)
https://www.stereophile.com/content...lifier-seven-monoblock-amplifier-measurements

I need the dsp to get good match with the sub and main speakers. Eq both individually, set xo and timing. Totally different level of integration!

Thats exactly the attraction to me, sub integration and EQ of bass. I have two JL 12" subs and their CR-1 crossover. Super quality piece with crossover all in the analogue realm. Doesn't do timings though, and of course no EQ.