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Prices... am I out of touch?

Were you actually there? Yes, a person could buy an entry level Technics DD turntable for $150 (no cartridge) and Technics integrated amplifier for ~100, but my first job only paid something like $3.25/hour, and there were times when every hour of it felt like an eternity. I think what really changed my notion of "affordable" was getting my first credit card. :facepalm:
I wasn’t there. But I was there in 1998 working my first minimum-wage part-time job where a full 20 hour weekend paycheck at $5.15 got me a discman with the stock earbuds. CDs were also $15 a pop which hurt until CD burners and Napster a few years later. Was not cheap.

I bought Ascend Acoustic CBM-170 in college for $330 while working for $7.50 an hour setting up PA systems around campus. I understand that it is pretty easy to get $18-20 an hour for a low skill job now since the pandemic, but those speakers are still the same price.
 
I don't wish to disparage anyone who is being "left behind" due to no fault of their own. But for those whose situation has been caused by their own life choices (especially car loans) Dave Ramsey has a few gentle words of advice.
 
2x Kali LP-6v2 + WS 6.2 covers 30-20k at reasonable volumes, and is less than $1k ($900)

If you're not into streaming, 2x Kali IN-8v2 (@ $800 MSRP) + a decent sub-$200 DAC or dongle is even better -- and still under $1k USD.
 
The reason why today's Hifi equipment offers good sound quality per dollar has a lot to do with the same factors that have enabled today's IT solutions to offer hugely better performance per dollar than ever before. Advancements in digital technology and the breakthrough of digital gadgets in to our life has lead to huge production volumes and consequently low unit costs. On software side the economy of size has also brought the prizes down with the added impact from opensource solutions.

These developments have had big impact on audio technology:
- First, the emergence of reasonably priced CD-players improved the sound quality/price over vinyl players and various magnetic tape solutions (at least as long as we are speaking of objective quality, instead of fairy tale beliefs)
- Then, the emergence of digital streaming solutions was a game changer in audio solutions, and the the emergence of hardware like Raspberry Pi, and opensource streaming software helped to bring the prices to astonishingly low level.
- Open source based DSP-solutions provided big improvements in sound quality for very cheap price (although there is a certain learning curve attached)

On analog side, maybe the biggest factor has been the improved quality of class D amplifiers. DSP enabled active monitors with low cost, but high quality class D amps offer today very good sound quality / price.
 
There's plenty of good audio equipment that's affordable, and everyone's finances are different, of course. My wife and I are comfortably off, but I choose not to spend a lot of money on my hobbies, preferring always to go for high value over high price. I have a lot of old and new equipment (too much!) but no single item cost more than $350.

Same logic with clothes (we shop at thrift stores for the most part) and cars (Toyota Corolla, Honda Fit) and food (Trader Joe's and Aldi).

I think in our consumerist society, luxury items are constantly referred to as "affordable" and "a steal" where in fact they are a stretch for many incomes.

The main thing is not to get ratcheted up by others and buy what you want, can afford, and need or really want.
 
[Ray includes a bunch of Glider pictures and prices]
I immediately supplied a sound track of variometer beeps sliding erratically up and down the scale as the thermal eludes the pilot. Surely the worlds most tedious video game soundtrack...
 
I would disagree with this statement. Back in 1980 you could buy a whole lot of hifi for not a lot of money. Or you could spend a whole lot more. The same goes for today.
For equivalent money spend you get a lot more hifi these days.
I think I may have worded it poorly, I went back and added a preamble to try and clear it up. I've never been good with words. Your statement is true but for me "a certain level of performance for such little money" is stuff like the Schiit Magni or Rekkr for example, or the Midgard on a good day, in terms of money in vs. functionality out. One brand of many just for illustration because I'm familiar with their catalogue. Anything much beyond that in the price ladder I tend to see as to much for too little gain, perhaps enjoyable but I'm always surprised to see so many people say it's good value or a bargain or similar.

I think Coonmanx and CapMan "get me" the best on this :) at least in recent memory of this thread.
What I meant with a certain level of performance is not that restricted. I also meant things like a 400W power amplifier with low distortion, or a loudspeaker that plays 105dB with low distortion. But also the cheapest stereo amplifiers you can buy from Denon and the like. Equivalent in price to cheaper amplifiers decades ago, but much better performance.
 
Were you actually there? Yes, a person could buy an entry level Technics DD turntable for $150 (no cartridge) and Technics integrated amplifier for ~100, but my first job only paid something like $3.25/hour, and there were times when every hour of it felt like an eternity. I think what really changed my notion of "affordable" was getting my first credit card. :facepalm:
Yes, I was there and that is when I bought my first system.

As for the credit card... Yeah it may make something more affordable until the bill rolls in. Then enjoy the 19% interest if you don't pay it off quickly.
 
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I wasn’t there. But I was there in 1998 working my first minimum-wage part-time job where a full 20 hour weekend paycheck at $5.15 got me a discman with the stock earbuds. CDs were also $15 a pop which hurt until CD burners and Napster a few years later. Was not cheap.

I bought Ascend Acoustic CBM-170 in college for $330 while working for $7.50 an hour setting up PA systems around campus. I understand that it is pretty easy to get $18-20 an hour for a low skill job now since the pandemic, but those speakers are still the same price.
Good thing I waited a while to get into CDs. In fact my first "CD player" was a 486 computer that I got in 1995 that had a CD drive. Hooked it up to the stereo and voila!
 
Edit preamble - yes, I know, there is actually, genuinely cheap entry-level gear, and it is good, very very good even, as low as ~$200 and under per piece. Yes, that is a good price, that makes sense to me. The disconnect for me, explained further below, is when more expensive things get called cheap, because to me $500 for an amp for example or a single speaker or a pair of headphones is already getting excessive for what it is, in my opinion at least, whereas it seems like many in this hobby, especially reviewers, still call that "budget". For me, that doesn't parse, I'd even dare to say it seems deranged, in a "who is this even for? How much of a spendthrift do you have to be for this to be budget?" sense. I think this all comes off more aggressive or accusatory than I'd like but I mean no offense, I just don't know how else to put voice to my thoughts.

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The more I read around about hi-fi the more baffled and bewildered I become on the price tags of equipment... I see $3,000 speakers, $1,000 amplifiers and $500 headphones being hailed as "low price" "great value" "a steal" "budget" "affordable" etc... to me none of those are anywhere even close to being any of those things! Even $200 is already an awful lot for headphones by my reckoning. Just yesterday I saw a review in a magazine magazine calling itself "affordable audio" for a $680 amplifier, which dared to call it "affordable", and gave it their "best of the year" award... no, sir, that is not "affordable", that is half a month's rent! I'd feel like I got punked if I subscribed to that magazine and then got that nonsense in the mail for it!

Just crazy to me not only how high the price tags can reach (way higher than anything I've mentioned so far), but how expensive it goes before audiophiles stop calling it "cheap". There's a massive disconnect for me whenever I see someone (on a forum, in a review, in a video, in a magazine, whatever) talking about something that for me is unthinkably expensive as if it's some kind of great deal, usually touting something along the lines of "you get what you pay for" just to rub it in. I don't get it... and, I'll admit, it's frustrating. I don't see the value in any of it. Am I alone?
Edit preamble - yes, I know, there is actually, genuinely cheap entry-level gear, and it is good, very very good even, as low as ~$200 and under per piece. Yes, that is a good price, that makes sense to me. The disconnect for me, explained further below, is when more expensive things get called cheap, because to me $500 for an amp for example or a single speaker or a pair of headphones is already getting excessive for what it is, in my opinion at least, whereas it seems like many in this hobby, especially reviewers, still call that "budget". For me, that doesn't parse, I'd even dare to say it seems deranged, in a "who is this even for? How much of a spendthrift do you have to be for this to be budget?" sense. I think this all comes off more aggressive or accusatory than I'd like but I mean no offense, I just don't know how else to put voice to my thoughts.

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The more I read around about hi-fi the more baffled and bewildered I become on the price tags of equipment... I see $3,000 speakers, $1,000 amplifiers and $500 headphones being hailed as "low price" "great value" "a steal" "budget" "affordable" etc... to me none of those are anywhere even close to being any of those things! Even $200 is already an awful lot for headphones by my reckoning. Just yesterday I saw a review in a magazine magazine calling itself "affordable audio" for a $680 amplifier, which dared to call it "affordable", and gave it their "best of the year" award... no, sir, that is not "affordable", that is half a month's rent! I'd feel like I got punked if I subscribed to that magazine and then got that nonsense in the mail for it!

Just crazy to me not only how high the price tags can reach (way higher than anything I've mentioned so far), but how expensive it goes before audiophiles stop calling it "cheap". There's a massive disconnect for me whenever I see someone (on a forum, in a review, in a video, in a magazine, whatever) talking about something that for me is unthinkably expensive as if it's some kind of great deal, usually touting something along the lines of "you get what you pay for" just to rub it in. I don't get it... and, I'll admit, it's frustrating. I don't see the value in any of it. Am I alone?
Not to worry. Take it from someone who has been at the very top pricewise; just because you pay (A LOT) more for gear does not in any way shape or form equate to better sound quality.
In many cases it’s the “cheaper” headphones that sound more realistic.
As an example: Hifiman’s eggshaped models are more often than not objectively poorer than the cheaper round cup models.
AKG’s K371 runs circles around their flagship K872.
I need to go water some plants now but safe to say there are many more examples.
 
Edit preamble - yes, I know, there is actually, genuinely cheap entry-level gear, and it is good, very very good even, as low as ~$200 and under per piece. Yes, that is a good price, that makes sense to me. The disconnect for me, explained further below, is when more expensive things get called cheap, because to me $500 for an amp for example or a single speaker or a pair of headphones is already getting excessive for what it is, in my opinion at least, whereas it seems like many in this hobby, especially reviewers, still call that "budget". For me, that doesn't parse, I'd even dare to say it seems deranged, in a "who is this even for? How much of a spendthrift do you have to be for this to be budget?" sense. I think this all comes off more aggressive or accusatory than I'd like but I mean no offense, I just don't know how else to put voice to my thoughts.

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The more I read around about hi-fi the more baffled and bewildered I become on the price tags of equipment... I see $3,000 speakers, $1,000 amplifiers and $500 headphones being hailed as "low price" "great value" "a steal" "budget" "affordable" etc... to me none of those are anywhere even close to being any of those things! Even $200 is already an awful lot for headphones by my reckoning. Just yesterday I saw a review in a magazine magazine calling itself "affordable audio" for a $680 amplifier, which dared to call it "affordable", and gave it their "best of the year" award... no, sir, that is not "affordable", that is half a month's rent! I'd feel like I got punked if I subscribed to that magazine and then got that nonsense in the mail for it!

Just crazy to me not only how high the price tags can reach (way higher than anything I've mentioned so far), but how expensive it goes before audiophiles stop calling it "cheap". There's a massive disconnect for me whenever I see someone (on a forum, in a review, in a video, in a magazine, whatever) talking about something that for me is unthinkably expensive as if it's some kind of great deal, usually touting something along the lines of "you get what you pay for" just to rub it in. I don't get it... and, I'll admit, it's frustrating. I don't see the value in any of it. Am I alone?
I guess it has to do with how much you are into the hobby. Some people depending on their lives priority don't care spending everything they have on the hobby as they care every ounce of performance a gain. Some people would be just fine with some cut corners as long as it fits their budget. You don't have to be rich to call a 1000 dollar amplifier as a budget one.

Where it really matters is, you have hell lot of expenses and audio is kind of your sidekick hobby. At this point you will be hesitant to pay for it. I have some friends who doesn't mind eating at a boutique restaurant for 200 euros and still be fine with it, but they would still consider 50 euros earphones as too much money for an earphone. I am the opposite of it. To me, I would skip lot of hotel meals to save it up myself for some dream speaker I want.
 
Yes, I was there and that is when I bought my first system.

As for the credit card... Yeah it may make something more affordable until the bill rolls in. Then enjoy the 19% interest if you don't pay it off quickly.
Tell me about it. I first got a credit card as a 19 year old student and every now and then I'd use it to buy records as I had zero disposable income until I was about 30.

By then the debt was up to three grand, I used to just pay the minimum each month to service it. God knows what that cost me over the years.

Eventually I moved into sales and was able to clear it with my first month's pay. But I wouldn't recommend buying on credit cards to anyone unless you can pay it off right away.
 
`There is a difference between being poor and not wanting to waste money. You're not the only one, and respectfully, I don't appreciate the insinuation. I could spend hundreds, maybe even thousands on audio gear if really I wanted, sure, but to me it doesn't make sense. I guess I'd rather spend more efficiently in this hobby and put the money I save towards other hobbies that I also enjoy. Variety is the spice of life as they say...

You are not out of touch. Welcome to the modern influencer/consumer culture of the present day.

1. What hobby are you partaking in?
The audiophile hobby is interesting because it means a lot of things. It can mean having a room/area of your home where the focus is listening to music (privately or with others) and the intent is to be as true to the source/recording or experience as possible. It can be that you enjoy the engineering that goes into audio equipment and like to collect notable historical products and products that reflect the creativity of a solution. If you think about “watch collecting” or “shoe collecting” or “handbag collecting” you want things to be functional, but it’s the art and heritage that matters.

Creating the environment where the focus is listening to music is one reason why vinyl LPs are popular in 2024 as are physical media like CDs are popular. Our world is such that many people find it hard to sit and listen through a full music album. If a new album is released on streaming, do you listen to it from start to finish? Or do you listen and skip tracks you don’t like?

“Variety is the spice of life”
This can be looked at in many ways. Even if you enjoy the precision of hi-fi, some audiophiles think of variety as trying to experience different type of speakers (omnidirectional, planar, etc.) or even more simply have a headphone and speaker setup to provide two different ways to experience the a particular track. You can season to taste by picking different speakers and the variety and experience of difference itself is what brings joy. Even here, the way to be efficient is to buy second hand and make sure that the resale value of whatever you are trying is there.

2. Content creators need to generate FOMO.
Did you research a lot of schools when applying to college? Did you research different strollers or car seats when you became a parent? Read reviews of washers and dryers when buying a new home?

It’s natural to seek out reviews and expert opinions when you’re making a purchase decision or plan. However once you buy something, you’re done for a while. That’s horrible for companies — look at 23 and me.

So if you look at something like headphones, the absolute pinnacle of headphones 20 years ago was a certain price. The Sennheiser HD600 was one of those super crazy, if you have money to spend type of deals. Now, RELATIVE to other things that have been released, the HD600 is “more affordable” than a flagship HD800/HD820 or the Focal/Dan Clark/etc.


3. Part of the hobby for many is conspicuous consumption.

4. You need to understand and determine what efficient means to you.
Would you rather buy a $100 day every 3 years? Or spend $1000 on a DAC that last you 10 years?

The first option is smarter financially. You amortized expenses and every 3 years, you gain from whatever technological benefits existed.
The first option is worse ecologically. You may not actually hear any considerable difference and have added to the e-waste.
What about time? If you make $50/hour and it takes you a few hours to troubleshoot/swap/deal with issues, maybe it makes sense to buy a product that is easier to use, has more reliable support (software + warranty support).

Do you care about country of manufacture and where tax revenue associated with your purchase is going?

I for one, spent a lot money seeking variety to understand what my end game was. Once I found my endgame, I went for it. The best way to save money in this hobby is to a) listen and play with a lot of gear; see what ergonomics make sense and don’t b) listen to a lot of different speakers to get a feel for what sort of trade offs you like. Full range, more coloration? Neutral, but bass shy? C) spend as much money as you can on the speakers and cut corners everywhere else.

When ASR and PS Audio see eye to eye, you know it’s something that you should consider carefully: the speakers make the biggest difference (and Paul says amp, which I will concede in terms of avoiding clipping)
 
Not to worry. Take it from someone who has been at the very top pricewise; just because you pay (A LOT) more for gear does not in any way shape or form equate to better sound quality.
In many cases it’s the “cheaper” headphones that sound more realistic.
As an example: Hifiman’s eggshaped models are more often than not objectively poorer than the cheaper round cup models.
AKG’s K371 runs circles around their flagship K872.
I need to go water some plants now but safe to say there are many more examples.

The LSR305/305P which had gone for as low as $200 per pair, IMO there's no head-and-shoulders better upgrade in speakers unless you need stupid amounts of SPL or LFE without a sub.
 
^Thanks for the tip. I’ve been out of the speaker world for a long time due to the apartments I’ve lived in having something akin to old Japanese paper walls and absolutely no isolation….so headphones became a way for me to blast weird tunes at night.
Then again I do have a pair of old JBLs from the 90s that I bought with the money I’d gotten for my confirmation which still sound awesome. Glad to hear that JBL still are producing great affordable speakers.
 
A big difference about the past? Less exposure to influencers who would have a person believe that a certain lifestyle is "normal". And for someone of my dad's generation, hifi wasn't some ongoing journey, it was simply something you bought for the purpose of listening to music. The very notion of buying something cheap today, with the intent of making a series of upgrades, to eventually achieve his original goal - he'd have thought it was nutty.
 
my first job only paid something like $3.25/hour

Minimum wage for me was a buck sixty, if I remember correctly.

Busboy at a swanky Dinner/Dancing/Drinking Show place in Jacksonville Fl wih waitresses dressed in litlle satin outfits

The shows were second or third tier Las Vegas style acts. Music/Comedy for the most part.

Get dinner served and cleared, hide someplace in the complex or watch the show, repeat, then hang till the remaining people stopped drinking and left.

We'd collect the untouched drinks and food and bring them down to"The Hole", an emergency exit on the right side of the stage, and watch the show.

1722265114609.png
 
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Does this work on hifi?

What is the wage rule for engagement rings?
"How much should you spend on an engagement ring? According to the classic engagement ring cost rule, you should spend three months' salary on an engagement ring for your loved one – after all, they'll be wearing that ring for the rest of their life."
 
Does this work on hifi?

What is the wage rule for engagement rings?
"How much should you spend on an engagement ring? According to the classic engagement ring cost rule, you should spend three months' salary on an engagement ring for your loved one – after all, they'll be wearing that ring for the rest of their life."
Given the divorce rate that last assertion is a little optimistic.

Main system was about two months salary but is mostly second-hand. At brand new prices it would be 8 months salary.

(Should probably mention that I'm not on a high salary).
 
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