Prices... am I out of touch?

[kemmler3D]

Edit preamble - yes, I know, there is actually, genuinely cheap entry-level gear, and it is good, very very good even, as low as ~$200 and under per piece. Yes, that is a good price, that makes sense to me. The disconnect for me, explained further below, is when more expensive things get called cheap, because to me $500 for an amp for example or a single speaker or a pair of headphones is already getting excessive for what it is, in my opinion at least, whereas it seems like many in this hobby, especially reviewers, still call that "budget". For me, that doesn't parse, I'd even dare to say it seems deranged, in a "who is this even for? How much of a spendthrift do you have to be for this to be budget?" sense. I think this all comes off more aggressive or accusatory than I'd like but I mean no offense, I just don't know how else to put voice to my thoughts.

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The more I read around about hi-fi the more baffled and bewildered I become on the price tags of equipment... I see $3,000 speakers, $1,000 amplifiers and $500 headphones being hailed as "low price" "great value" "a steal" "budget" "affordable" etc... to me none of those are anywhere even close to being any of those things! Even $200 is already an awful lot for headphones by my reckoning. Just yesterday I saw a review in a magazine magazine calling itself "affordable audio" for a $680 amplifier, which dared to call it "affordable", and gave it their "best of the year" award... no, sir, that is not "affordable", that is half a month's rent! I'd feel like I got punked if I subscribed to that magazine and then got that nonsense in the mail for it!

Just crazy to me not only how high the price tags can reach (way higher than anything I've mentioned so far), but how expensive it goes before audiophiles stop calling it "cheap". There's a massive disconnect for me whenever I see someone (on a forum, in a review, in a video, in a magazine, whatever) talking about something that for me is unthinkably expensive as if it's some kind of great deal, usually touting something along the lines of "you get what you pay for" just to rub it in. I don't get it... and, I'll admit, it's frustrating. I don't see the value in any of it. Am I alone?

Replying to OP's original question, I think you are out of touch, but only in terms of what present-day Hi-Fi is and costs, not in a bad way. There is also a certain amount of learning and then re-learning what it takes to get good performance.

I came from the true consumer world where it was hard to get people to pay $300 for a nice portable speaker.

When I started reading more about hi-fi a couple years back, I was really taken aback by how much a good amp and speakers cost, but what shocked me the most was the cost of a DSP unit that could simply do PEQ. MiniDSP was 5-6x more than what I thought such things should cost, having seen modules for single-digit dollars in the manufacturing world. I still think so, but luckily we have gotten more alternatives over time.

I didn't expect people to still be paying $1K+ for amps in 2022.

I wasn't sure about speakers, but I was surprised to see people not blink at $1K for a speaker.

Over time I got more accustomed to what compromises you need to make at every price point.

But more importantly, I still buy all my gear used. Can you get TOTL sound for under $500? Not easily... but you don't have to spend a lot more than that if you get lucky on Craigslist, either.

 

[Sal1950]

Here are a few ways to express financial hardship without directly saying you're poor:

You forgot one of the best,
"I'm living on a fixed income"

Price-wise, the market for high-end audio is similar to that for wristwatches and other luxury goods, in the sense that if you simply want a superbly accurate timepiece, any number of inexpensive quartz watches will do the job brilliantly. More money does not buy you a higher degree of accuracy, but it will generally buy you a more finely detailed product, which might be likened to a piece of wearable art. And in this sense, the emphasis becomes more about how a product makes a person feel, rather than merely what it does.

For sure. I'm a retired mechanic/machinist and if I was to fall into a pile of cash I'd have a big stack Dan D'agostino amps, etc here. They're unbelievably beautiful, it must cost $10-20k, maybe more, just to machine those incredible cases. I'd much prefer to have a bunch of them in my living room than any fancy-dan artwork on the walls.

So who gets to determine what is affordable or not?

Only my wallet.
My buddy/neighbor went nuts when he helped me carry my 5 new JBL speakers in and I told him they cost $10K.
But then he has $175K sitting in his driveway, 2 trucks of which he is the sole household driver. ?????

 

[Petrushka]

You forgot one of the best,
"I'm living on a fixed income"

For sure. I'm a retired mechanic/machinist and if I was to fall into a pile of cash I'd have a big stack Dan D'agostino amps, etc here. They're unbelievably beautiful, it must cost $10-20k, maybe more, just to machine those incredible cases. I'd much prefer to have a bunch of them in my living room than any fancy-dan artwork on the walls.

Only my wallet.
My buddy/neighbor went nuts when he helped me carry my 5 JBL speakers in and I told him they cost $10K.
But then he has $175K sitting in his driveway, 2 trucks of which he is the sole household driver. ?????

I did some IT work for a company that made food carts for airlines. Thy had CNC machines that could punch out a hundred of those in an afternoon. Put them in a drum polisher overnight, and presto. By the way, these were the poster products in the ugliest audio thread.

 

[coonmanx]

But that isn't the subject of this topic. The statement posed is that current hifi is too expensive. Which it clearly isn't. Never before in history you could buy a certain level of performance for such little money.

I would disagree with this statement. Back in 1980 you could buy a whole lot of hifi for not a lot of money. Or you could spend a whole lot more. The same goes for today.

The statement actually was about the fact that some were saying that 10K for speakers was "affordable" And I would say that is not true. For a lot of us 10K for speakers is out of reach. But these days, from what I have learned, I have no desire to spend that much on speakers. I also wouldn't and have not spent more than $50 for a CD player.

What is "affordable" for one may be out of reach for everyone else. And that was true before and is still true to this day.

I think that reviewers may be pushing the narrative that more expensive stuff is affordable. Because they may have access to more expensive stuff.

 

[Petrushka]

I would disagree with this statement. Back in 1980 you could buy a whole lot of hifi for not a lot of money. Or you could spend a whole lot more. The same goes for today.

The statement actually was about the fact that some were saying that 10K for speakers was "affordable" And I would say that is not true. For a lot of us 10K for speakers is out of reach. But these days, from what I have learned, I have no desire to spend that much on speakers. I also wouldn't and have not spent more than $50 for a CD player.

What is "affordable" for one may be out of reach for everyone else. And that was true before and is still true to this day.

I think that reviewers may be pushing the narrative that more expensive stuff is affordable. Because they may have access to more expensive stuff.

Better to pay $20 for a CD drive and $50 for dbpoweramp.

 

[bachatero]

You forgot one of the best,
"I'm living on a fixed income"

What about those who are living off the dividends of a millionS-dollar investment account?

 

[Sal1950]

I did some IT work for a company that made food carts for airlines.

??? Do those cases look like food carts to you?
There is an incredible number of different CNC processes going on for each one.
Etc, etc, etc.

 

[coonmanx]

Better to pay $20 for a CD drive and $50 for dbpoweramp.

Funny you should say this because I paid just about $20 for my JVC XL-V151 CD player that I got off of Ebay and that included shipping. LOL. And it sounds great!

 

[Petrushka]

??? Do those cases look like food carts to you?
There is an incredible number of different CNC processes going on for each one.
Etc, etc, etc.

The answer is they are no more complex. Do not have more more holes. The point of CNC is you draw it, the machine makes it.

Draw it in SolidWorks, and software writes the CNC script. I guarantee an airline food cart price makes these look cheap. But mostly due to FAA regs.

 

[kelesh]

Funny you should say this because I paid just about $20 for my JVC XL-V151 CD player that I got off of Ebay and that included shipping. LOL. And it sounds great!

I have had the 261 from the same series for years. The great sound is undoubtedly due to the "errorless D/A converter"

 

[Steven Holt]

You forgot one of the best,
"I'm living on a fixed income"

For sure. I'm a retired mechanic/machinist and if I was to fall into a pile of cash I'd have a big stack Dan D'agostino amps, etc here. They're unbelievably beautiful, it must cost $10-20k, maybe more, just to machine those incredible cases. I'd much prefer to have a bunch of them in my living room than any fancy-dan artwork on the walls.

Only my wallet.
My buddy/neighbor went nuts when he helped me carry my 5 new JBL speakers in and I told him they cost $10K.
But then he has $175K sitting in his driveway, 2 trucks of which he is the sole household driver. ?????

Sal, man, I've read your posts, I know yr a good guy. Don't take this wrong, I mean no offence -- but those amps you've shown, not even a brothel in Vegas would put those in their 'guest lounge'. Not that I've ever been to one, of course.

 

[Parts]

If I was starting out today and new to music I would possibly be saving for something like Kali actives, and not sure if it would be Topping or a CA CX100, if PC most likely a Topping headphone dac DX7 or such. That looks serious bang for buck compared to 20 years ago.

Looking at the Kali LP-6 with a Topping E70, man thats your amplifier dac, speakers with XLR cables for under £750. Is that not great value? Not even sure you can do much better second hand in this day and age. Not sure what the go to sources are these days, I nee dto catch up.

My upstairs system is rather old, it has a TEAC VRDS T-1 that has failed, with a D-T1 matching Dac, in 1994 that was around £1000 if I remember, I am considering replacing that pairing with the Cambridge Audio CXC transport and CXN100 streaming dac at £1400. That seems good value and I feel I can get a better Transport and Dac for around £1000 today than I could have 30 years ago.

So yes while I sometimes feel much of the hifi prices are mental, looking at you LS3/5a, and those Mission 770's and copies of old amplifiers. Sure some stuff just seem sto have gow way too expensive, 30 years a pair of ATC SCM 50 would have cost the same as a high end bicycle, today they cost as much as two high end bicycles.

But we now have all these amazing budget class D amps, speakers, dacs that are pretty tempting and costing not a lot compared to what was available years ago.

 

[Sokel]

The answer is they are no more complex. Do not have more more holes. The point of CNC is you draw it, the machine makes it.

Draw it in SolidWorks, and software writes the CNC script. I guarantee an airline food cart price makes these look cheap. But mostly due to FAA regs.

It's the size.
I'm in touch with big CNC machines for ships.
The bigger the block,the more time it takes,I think they have to take account of the heat that builds up,etc.

The pre shown there is about 35 Kg and the power amp about 50 Kg.

 

[Petrushka]

The answer is they are no more complex. Do not have more more holes. The point of CNC is you draw it, the machine makes it.

It's the size.
I'm in touch with big CNC machines for ships.
The bigger the block,the more time it takes,I think they have to take account of the heat that builds up,etc.

The pre shown there is about 35 Kg and the power amp about 50 Kg.

I’ll grant that the block of aluminum and the milling are going to be expensive. The place I worked had four large dumpsters full of aluminum scrap after one order. That’s a lot of money.

 

[MattHooper]

You forgot one of the best,
"I'm living on a fixed income"

For sure. I'm a retired mechanic/machinist and if I was to fall into a pile of cash I'd have a big stack Dan D'agostino amps, etc here. They're unbelievably beautiful, it must cost $10-20k, maybe more, just to machine those incredible cases. I'd much prefer to have a bunch of them in my living room than any fancy-dan artwork on the walls.

Only my wallet.
My buddy/neighbor went nuts when he helped me carry my 5 new JBL speakers in and I told him they cost $10K.
But then he has $175K sitting in his driveway, 2 trucks of which he is the sole household driver. ?????

I know what you mean, Sal.

Those amps are pretty blingy and if they hit your aesthetic bull’s-eye, then they would be great candy in the room. I would agree with you that they are very cool looking, and look like they have a super luxurious level of fit and finish. Artwork is great, of course. But for the audiophile there is a wonderful combination of visual pleasure and functionality (and possibly great engineering) that a great piece of audio gear can supply.

With amps like those, you get to look at them and appreciate them every time you sit down and listen to music. Plus… extra kick that those super cool objects are helping produce the music you are hearing!

I guess it’s like the combination one can get out of aesthetics and feel and the drive of a sports car.

My tube amps may be far from state of the art, but in decades of ownership, the pleasure I get out of their look and design has never grown old.

 

[antcollinet]

and software writes the CNC script.

Oh there is a whole lot more to it than that. The person setting up the processing parameters has to understand the different materials and grades of those materials and how they interact with different cutting tools, speeds and feeds, cutting depth, what type of tool path to run, what direction of rotation to use (climb vs conventional milling) and so on. and how to adjust these to get the finish needed. I am a total novice, and work with wood rather than metal - I am sure a real machinist considers a hundred more parameters than i am aware of.

 

[Petrushka]

Oh there is a whole lot more to it than that. The person setting up the processing parameters has to understand the different materials and grades of those materials and how they interact with different cutting tools, speeds and feeds, cutting depth, what type of tool path to run, what direction of rotation to use (climb vs conventional milling) and so on. and how to adjust these to get the finish needed. I am a total novice, and work with wood rather than metal - I am sure a real machinist considers a hundred more parameters than i am aware of.

Tolerance Based Machining | TBM | CAMWorks

Tolerance Based Machining eliminates the manual tasks associated to preparing parts with close tolerances, asymmetric tolerances, surface finishes and other drawing annotations for toolpath generation to automate and dramatically accelerate the manufacturing process.

camworks.com

 

[JeffS7444]

Back in 1980 you could buy a whole lot of hifi for not a lot of money.

Were you actually there? Yes, a person could buy an entry level Technics DD turntable for $150 (no cartridge) and Technics integrated amplifier for ~100, but my first job only paid something like $3.25/hour, and there were times when every hour of it felt like an eternity. I think what really changed my notion of "affordable" was getting my first credit card.

 

[Sal1950]

Tolerance Based Machining | TBM | CAMWorks

Tolerance Based Machining eliminates the manual tasks associated to preparing parts with close tolerances, asymmetric tolerances, surface finishes and other drawing annotations for toolpath generation to automate and dramatically accelerate the manufacturing process.

camworks.com

So what's your point? You've given nothing to show the costs of production, which I believe is your point of contention when I said they would probably cost $10-20k a piece to produce. So this is ASR, give me some numbers, the base cost of that virgin billet aluminum and brass, the CNC design time, the machine setup time, the cutting time, the tapping and threading time, the polishing time, much more. And don't forget these are very low production units, we're not talking 50,000 food carts, so cost per unit goes up, way up.

Sal, man, I've read your posts, I know yr a good guy. Don't take this wrong, I mean no offence -- but those amps you've shown, not even a brothel in Vegas would put those in their 'guest lounge'. Not that I've ever been to one, of course.

That's your opinion of the "art" of it.
I could name many paintings/painters work going for millions that I would gladly use for toilet paper.
Dan D has invested a fortune in their cosmetic design, one for which I'm sure he's brought in some professional outside consultation. Still, the bottom line here is that many very wealthy folks are laying down huge money to have them on display in their audio shrine so obviously they've all agreed with me.
YMMV

 

[MattHooper]

I’m pretty much spent out on audio, I’ve got everything I need and don’t foresee any major purchases as far as I can see into the future. But if I was buying, there certainly is absolutely terrific quality audio available for less than I was paying for some of my gear even 20 years ago.

When it comes to Home Theatre, my other geek hobby, there I have truly been priced out of things. JVC generally makes the best consumer projectors, and I would upgrade my JVC projector pretty much every two years whenever they made another advance in contrast. However, the bottom started going out and Home Theater, especially in the projector market, and so manufactures of high-quality projectors are now almost solely targeting the luxury rich crowd. I haven’t upgraded in eight years. The same projector quality I bought for around eight grand back then would now cost me around 25 grand.
Nope. No can-do.