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Prices... am I out of touch?

The more I read around about hi-fi the more baffled and bewildered I become on the price tags of equipment... I see $3,000 speakers, $1,000 amplifiers and $500 headphones being hailed as "low price" "great value" "a steal" "budget" "affordable" etc... to me none of those are anywhere even close to being any of those things! Even $200 is already an awful lot for headphones by my reckoning. Just yesterday I saw a review in a magazine magazine calling itself "affordable audio" for a $680 amplifier, which dared to call it "affordable", and gave it their "best of the year" award... no, sir, that is not "affordable", that is half a month's rent! I'd feel like I got punked if I subscribed to that magazine and then got that nonsense in the mail for it!

Just crazy to me not only how high the price tags can reach (way higher than anything I've mentioned so far), but how expensive it goes before audiophiles stop calling it "cheap". There's a massive disconnect for me whenever I see someone (on a forum, in a review, in a video, in a magazine, whatever) talking about something that for me is unthinkably expensive as if it's some kind of great deal, usually touting something along the lines of "you get what you pay for" just to rub it in. I don't get it... and, I'll admit, it's frustrating. I don't see the value in any of it. Am I alone?
When I left university in 1983 I'd saved for a celebratory investment in hifi. I also had to put part of my first pay check in the hat.

I bought a Technics amp, tape deck and tuner stack (I already had a turntable and speakers inherited from my parents). I can't remember precisely, but each component was a little over £100 - so lets say £350 all in. It was all entry level stuff - lowest price from the technics range.

In today's money that would be about £1500 - for an entry level system.

Today - I could get significantly better performance and functionality out of a Wiim amp for around £320. Less than I paid in actual pound notes over 40 years ago.

Or I could get a top end performance amp and streamer (say purify amp + wiim Pro plus) for about that same £1500 in real terms.

So this stuff might still be expensive - but it is a hell of a lot cheaper now than it was then.
 
The more I read around about hi-fi the more baffled and bewildered I become on the price tags of equipment... I see $3,000 speakers, $1,000 amplifiers and $500 headphones being hailed as "low price" "great value" "a steal" "budget" "affordable" etc... to me none of those are anywhere even close to being any of those things! Even $200 is already an awful lot for headphones by my reckoning. Just yesterday I saw a review in a magazine magazine calling itself "affordable audio" for a $680 amplifier, which dared to call it "affordable", and gave it their "best of the year" award... no, sir, that is not "affordable", that is half a month's rent! I'd feel like I got punked if I subscribed to that magazine and then got that nonsense in the mail for it!

Just crazy to me not only how high the price tags can reach (way higher than anything I've mentioned so far), but how expensive it goes before audiophiles stop calling it "cheap". There's a massive disconnect for me whenever I see someone (on a forum, in a review, in a video, in a magazine, whatever) talking about something that for me is unthinkably expensive as if it's some kind of great deal, usually touting something along the lines of "you get what you pay for" just to rub it in. I don't get it... and, I'll admit, it's frustrating. I don't see the value in any of it. Am I alone?
No, probably not. Myself I buy mainly used audio equipment which are fair priced. Same with cars. New cars are a money pithole. So I buy used ones and without too much electronics in it. New cars have by regulation a black box which will be read out after an accident. I don't want this.
The saved money do I spend for a nice diner in a very good restaurant and vacation journey.
 
Find a new hobby.

I did, but not for cost reasons.

My Audio purchases have been made. Unless something breaks. .

New hobby has a range of prices, too. Doesn't everything?


All used here as "new" prices just aren't published (that I've seen). You have to call the (only) Dealer and play a round of "Let's Make A Deal", picking optional equipment, and other features. And then get in line wait a year or two for manufacturing and delivery (from Europe or South Africa)

High range:

1722155800730.png

Affordable Range:

I own one similar to the middle below, paid $12k three years ago. The plane is good, the trailer needs a lot of work.

1722156012443.png

The range in my "wish list" in case I go shopping:

1722158475413.png
 
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I bought my first pair of headphones at 1983 (14yo) for about $70 at a pro store and it was at the low side of prices.

I consider low starting pricing of those stuff more than fair.
It's skilled people (I hope) that make them and that kind of education has to be paid,doesn't it?

As in everything else in life,you get what you pay for (as a whole,it's not only the item,we people buy stories more than everything else)
 
Always confused me why more people don't buy second hand, especially loudspeakers.

All my system was bought used (speakers were third hand) except the CD transport. Why would I take the hit (especially 20% sales tax) when someone else already did?

It pains me to buy new, even though I can afford it. All my furniture and white goods were bought second hand too. On the other hand I'll happily pay for a car service rather than get the train because the benefit is real and obvious.

'Affordable' is relative as already said. When I started out I was still at school and earned £10 for one day a week stacking shelves in the supermarket. In the hi-fi shop the cheapest amp was a Rotel at £120. That was unaffordable to me.
 
There is plenty of affordable stuff, just hifi publications don't really want to mention much of that for the most part. If you look around this site you will find plenty of affordable gear. One mans affordable is another mans unattainable, but just pick a budget and go with whatever that is. Don't be suckered in by magazines, influencers masquerading as reviewers on YouTube and you will be able to put together a system that can outdo some fancy pants system costing exorbitant sums of cash.
Just look through reviews here of some of the hyped expensive stuff, a lot of it is all show. You really don't need a fat wallet to get sound enjoyment, in fact it's more enjoyable having a cheaper system and hearing the occasional really expensive system if you know someone and quietly chuckling to yourself at how it sounds worse or no better for a system that is less than the cost of one interconnect in the expensive setup.
 
The more I read around about hi-fi the more baffled and bewildered I become on the price tags of equipment... I see $3,000 speakers, $1,000 amplifiers and $500 headphones being hailed as "low price" "great value" "a steal" "budget" "affordable" etc... to me none of those are anywhere even close to being any of those things! Even $200 is already an awful lot for headphones by my reckoning. Just yesterday I saw a review in a magazine magazine calling itself "affordable audio" for a $680 amplifier, which dared to call it "affordable", and gave it their "best of the year" award... no, sir, that is not "affordable", that is half a month's rent! I'd feel like I got punked if I subscribed to that magazine and then got that nonsense in the mail for it!

Just crazy to me not only how high the price tags can reach (way higher than anything I've mentioned so far), but how expensive it goes before audiophiles stop calling it "cheap". There's a massive disconnect for me whenever I see someone (on a forum, in a review, in a video, in a magazine, whatever) talking about something that for me is unthinkably expensive as if it's some kind of great deal, usually touting something along the lines of "you get what you pay for" just to rub it in. I don't get it... and, I'll admit, it's frustrating. I don't see the value in any of it. Am I alone?
Its called inflation. 3% a year over 20 years adds up. But you also get a lot more performance for the price these days. For the prices you are mentioning here you can buy state of the art performance levels. End-game setups for that kind of money would have been unthinkable decades ago (remember think about inflation when looking at pricing).

That’s a really good and interesting comparison. A good quality amplifier really shouldn’t ever become “obsolete”. (I have several from the 50’s myself - lol)

Buy it once…

I doubt amplifiers from the 50s have the power, noise and distortion numbers that make sure they never become obsolete. But I understand what you are saying, its just that the price of amplifiers that can drive 99% of what you throw at them has been dropping steadily over several decades. I'd put a $1000 power amplifier from 2024 up against pretty much anything pre-2000 and I'm sure it most likely runs circles around it. A $1000 (inflation corrected) amplifier from the 1980s stands no chance.
 
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The more I read around about hi-fi the more baffled and bewildered I become on the price tags of equipment... I see $3,000 speakers, $1,000 amplifiers and $500 headphones being hailed as "low price" "great value" "a steal" "budget" "affordable" etc... to me none of those are anywhere even close to being any of those things! Even $200 is already an awful lot for headphones by my reckoning. Just yesterday I saw a review in a magazine magazine calling itself "affordable audio" for a $680 amplifier, which dared to call it "affordable", and gave it their "best of the year" award... no, sir, that is not "affordable", that is half a month's rent! I'd feel like I got punked if I subscribed to that magazine and then got that nonsense in the mail for it!

Just crazy to me not only how high the price tags can reach (way higher than anything I've mentioned so far), but how expensive it goes before audiophiles stop calling it "cheap". There's a massive disconnect for me whenever I see someone (on a forum, in a review, in a video, in a magazine, whatever) talking about something that for me is unthinkably expensive as if it's some kind of great deal, usually touting something along the lines of "you get what you pay for" just to rub it in. I don't get it... and, I'll admit, it's frustrating. I don't see the value in any of it. Am I alone?

Hi

I'll answer your question by telling you that accurate reproduction in your home or while moving has never been more affordable.
If you have a smartphone, you can have SOTA (State Of The Art) reproduction for under $100. Or close to SOTA at around $50.oo. That is "affordable" for people in the US, that are not at the poverty level (Poverty level defined as: people who live in a family of 4 whose income is above $28,000 a year. See this: What income is considered poverty USA?). The debate could rage on about the threshold of income priorities but I won't digress :)

Now if you want this in your home, well again prices have been lowered dramatically. It depends on where you want to listen to music. The size of the room has an impact on the final price. Too many things to say for now.

Now let us go to a different take. "Things" in this world have, something attached to them called "cost". A notion that is often lost on many. It cost something to make something.. Often a lot to the people making stuff for you to enjoy. Let's take the exmaple of an amplifier and let's supose a one person trying to make these...
They/he/she have to learn how to make the amplifier (Cost them time, resources and often money)
They/he/she have find the parts that makes the amplifier ... (Cost them time, resources and money)
They/he/she have to test those parts and make sure they work as advertised (Cost them time, resources and money)
They/he/she have to find ways to make the amp known by the market aka Marketing ... (Cost them time, resources and money)
They/he/she have to make the amp available to you (Cost them time, resources and money)
They/he/she may have to find ways to correct mistakes that were made getting the products to you (Cost them time, resources and money)

Meanwhile They/he/she must realize very few people actually care about good sound... thus a very risky enterprise to sell you an amp and after all the above, you may decide not to not like like their amp, based on the false narrative that a $50 amp can't be good ...
Let's not go thinking about speakers where you have to make a something at least the size of a shoebox ;)... Physics will limit how small it can be .. you can't be smaller than that and light up a 12 x 15 ft room...
And you can beginning to see why $20 IEM and decent headphones under $200.oo are indeed "affordable" for those who are in the hobby ...

On this there are also very good, "affordable" speakers. I will cite two from the top of my head:
JBL LSR-305 at about $300/pair reviewed Here
JBL LSR-308 at about $600/pair. reviewed Here.

I use both in my HT and am pleased beyong expectation. I supplement these with two subwoofers, again two very big, "affordable " :p boxes at $250 each...

There are others.

You can have better objective performances than any of my 2 examples, (or the ASR reviewed equivalents in price and performances). For that you will spend at least 3 times as much , which for the enthusiasts, remain in the province of "affordability".


OTOH. The narrative that has driven the hobby is":

Moh EXPENSIVE = Moh Better.. An expression that I coined myself (Spelling and grammar be damned!! :)). They will tell you that you have to spend a lot to get better. How much is "a lot" is variable linked to the subjective. The Hi-Fi industry wants you to spend more , they came up with these BS prices items and find people to write, to proclaim that the more expensive items is always better. And people believed and continue to do so.
There are performance metrics. This is where ASR has come and has annoyed, even embarrassed, the HiFi industry in particular the High End segment of this Industry. ASR has regularly proven that price is not an indication of performance. Repeatedly.. my favorite being the $ 9.95 dongle, DAC and amplifier, that performed as well as a 15,000.oo (NO TYPO) DAC. Yep!...

As in many things if you want to push the enveloppe of objective, measurable performance, it will cost you but.. you got to choose what you are looking for in a reasonable fashion.

If you want a car capable of accelerating from 0 to 60 MPH in 3 secs, you can either get some fancy Ferrari or equivalent, at least $200,000 or you can get a Tesla 3 Performance at $55,000...
If you want a cheap, at $10,000 car and sub 3 seconds 0 to 60.. they don't exist or are not available , yet (2024) in the US or anywhere ..


Peace.
 
UK pensioner's perspective -

What was the mid priced market has all but gone, taken over by a huge glut of good-used older gear which @Mart68 and other UK forum regulars regularly plunder (me too in recent times). Cheap imported electronics at the bottom, with stunning performance, companies like Schiit who are doing their utter best to make competitively priced gear with proper performance now and keeping imported prices as fair as they can, speakers designed by good European/US engineers but made cheaply in the far east - and then there's the high end, with mostly outrageous prices keeping pension pots well filled, albeit with lower demand, but I can think of a few companies that increased their prices 'because they can' rather than because they need to, to stay in business.

So after the comments above (severely edited), I do feel for the OP, as if only looking at new gear, I'm in much the same boat these days I admit. As @Mart68 says above, there's a huge wealth of decent used gear out there and not all of it is shagged to death, although some could do with a professional check-over I admit. Choosing carefully, one can still buy a good working system from the golden years of separates which will play music to a high standard.
 
I feel like the original poster's sensitivity reflects more on what they are focusing on than the actual discord of the site. This is an audiophile site full of people focusing on audio reproduction. I make mid-six figures but am fine driving a ten year old car. Of course I spend on my audio products. A lot here are the same - we just have different financial priorities or more financials. There is plenty of talk of budget products and well reviewed budget products - the Kali UNF active speakers are $300 per pair, the Fosi v3 is $100 for a stereo amplifier, the Salnotes Zero 2 earbuds for $25, the Apple lightning/USB-C dongle for $10.

I agree that comparing an audio item to "other similar items" and calling it a bargain is a tired trope that needs to stop.

However, money is always relative. I am reminded of a recent presentation I attended where the speaker said that the top 1% richest in the world are responsible for half of the greenhouse gas emissions. Everyone's first reaction is to condemn those global elites in their private jets. However, the monthly income to get into that top 1% is only $1,000 a month. On a relative scale, we are all the elite. But what is a reasonable way to spend money? Is multiple car ownership for a family exorbitant? Air travel for pleasure? Owning a multi-thousand dollar stereo? It is all relative.
 
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For great sound: my phone is a good enough source, as is my laptop with a £10 dongle - add £20 IEMs and we're done.

Gets more expensive to add speakers, but active iLoud micro or Kali LP (£200 ish) - same dongle or a £100 DAC and that's great kit.

Very easy to spend more, second hand options are myriad... does not have to be expensive.

That said, this is not really a cheap hobby!

Music, however, is as free as love :)
 
I don't get it... and, I'll admit, it's frustrating.

Hi-fi is mostly low-volume manufacturing with lots of manual labour demanding relatively high wages.

Do some research on what it would take to make your own hi-fi products and what asking price you would have to accept to just barely make a profit, and I guarantee you'll be sweating bullets in no time ;)

Even if you outsource most of the production steps to East Asia, I'll still be a cutthroat exercise.

Yes, there's bargains to be had, and yes, some manufacturers rely heavily on the fact that higher price tags give the illusion of better sound.

But most of the "outrageous" stuff is just honest people making a living. Not to mention that "you get what you pay for" often manifests itself most strongly in the form of reliablity. There's not much fun in buying cheap gear, if it breaks and needs replacement every six months.
 
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and white goods were bought second hand too.
Toilet paper too? :facepalm: :p

I've bought a lot from both the new and used market but it's always been new in speakers.
My stack of 6 classic Adcom amps were all from the used market and I've purchased a couple Marantz multich pre-pro's used.

I doubt amplifiers from the 50s have the power, noise and distortion numbers that make sure they never become obsolete.
Agreed, you do have to get into the 1970s solid state power amps to get something competitive with more modern designs, with the same with if not newer for preamps.. Of course with multich and being compatible with modern codec's, all bets are off.
 
I got this system for a friend, all bought off of forums:

Technics SL6 linear tracker turntable plus a tenner for new stylus £80
B&O CD player £80
AR 'A03' amplifier £70
KEF 'Calinda' speakers with new crossovers £100
£30 for speaker cable and interconnects.

£360 or about $430 in USD.

His room is large with good acoustic, that system sounds superb on both sources across all types of music. You would not want better unless you were an obsessive which he and his wife are not.

No way could you have got that kind of sound quality for that little money until about 15 years ago, at least not in the UK.

Reliability? Five years on it's all still working fine. It's never been cheaper to get into good sound.
 
Putting things in perspective. Since 1975, prices of milk and gasoline have gone up ten times.

Using that adjustment, my Advent 300, 20 wpc, would cost $3000.

But a decent entry level streamer amp now is $300-500. Same dollar amount as the 1975 receiver.

And when I say decent, I mean bordering on transparent.
 
As far as I can see, never before has so high sound quality been available at such a reasonable price compared to average guy's financial resources.

Besides, to anyone who feels that most HiFi gear is silly expensive, I have a solution that has worked for me: Get interested in Swiss mechanical watches. Once You have accustomed to the idea that USD 5K is a reasonable price for a good wristwatch, most other things look dirty cheap.
 
I won't get into the argument of whether today's HiFi is cheap or too expensive, as I see it very much as 'It Depends'.

However, what I think is undeniable is that the most expensive of anything that might be classified as 'luxury' goods' has become hugely more expensive, whether cars, watches, cameras or HiFi.

I started buying and/or DIYing HiFi equipment in the early 1970s, and looking through my copy of the 1974 HiFi yearbook, the most expensive pickup cartridge I found was the ADC25 at £77, equivalent to £708 now. That's a mid-price cartridge now.

The most expensive amplifier was the Galactron at £328 then, equivalent to £3018. What price an Agostino?

The most expensive loudspeakers in that book were the IMF Pro monitors at £385, equivalent to £3542 now. Again, a mid price for today.

I accept that the Yearbook didn't list everything, and some items were 'Price on Application' but nevertheless, it's clear that manufacturers, even those who were still around 50 years ago, have massively raised their prices. The most expensive B&W loudspeaker in1974 was the DM70, at £175, equivalent to £1614 today. Now, their current TOTL (excluding the Nautilus) is over £47,500

Tannoy's most expensive loudspeaker in 1974 was the GRF at £215, equivalent now to £1978. The Westminster is now £55,000, and the lower level ones of the Prestige series are all over £7000.

As to mechanical watches or cars...

S.
 
As far as I can see, never before has so high sound quality been available at such a reasonable price compared to average guy's financial resources.

Besides, to anyone who feels that most HiFi gear is silly expensive, I have a solution that has worked for me: Get interested in Swiss mechanical watches. Once You have accustomed to the idea that USD 5K is a reasonable price for a good wristwatch, most other things look dirty cheap.

1957, JBL paragon, $1830.

I simply deny that you have to spend tons of money today to enjoy music.
No one needs boutique equipment to enjoy music.
 
The more I read around about hi-fi the more baffled and bewildered I become on the price tags of equipment... I see $3,000 speakers, $1,000 amplifiers and $500 headphones being hailed as "low price" "great value" "a steal" "budget" "affordable" etc... to me none of those are anywhere even close to being any of those things! Even $200 is already an awful lot for headphones by my reckoning. Just yesterday I saw a review in a magazine magazine calling itself "affordable audio" for a $680 amplifier, which dared to call it "affordable", and gave it their "best of the year" award... no, sir, that is not "affordable", that is half a month's rent! I'd feel like I got punked if I subscribed to that magazine and then got that nonsense in the mail for it!

Just crazy to me not only how high the price tags can reach (way higher than anything I've mentioned so far), but how expensive it goes before audiophiles stop calling it "cheap". There's a massive disconnect for me whenever I see someone (on a forum, in a review, in a video, in a magazine, whatever) talking about something that for me is unthinkably expensive as if it's some kind of great deal, usually touting something along the lines of "you get what you pay for" just to rub it in. I don't get it... and, I'll admit, it's frustrating. I don't see the value in any of it. Am I alone?

Check out this thread, a really great system put together at really modest outlay, could well be an inspiration.
 
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