Prices... am I out of touch?

[restorer-john]

Buy it once…

There's an amplifier sitting on my bench that was made in 1977. It looks, sounds and operates as well as it did the day it was made 47 years ago. It needs absolutely nothing in terms of maintenance. The quality of construction puts most "budget HiFi" made today in the shade. It cost £190 in 1977.

 

[GreeneDeux]

At the same time, an Amplifier does one thing - it powers speakers. A smartphone is a miniaturised computer. Though, I don't buy smartphones, either.

£190 in '77 is over £1,000 today... that's crazy - both how much it cost, and how much money has inflated!

 

[Robin L]

By the way, the Topping LA90 power amp goes for about $800 but still can be considered a "bargain" on account of its very high performance:

Topping LA90 Discrete Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Topping LA90 Discrete balanced stereo amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $799. The case is the same as the IC-based Topping LA90 which is fine with me given its high quality look and feel. The power switch doubles as input...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[recycle]

Here are a few ways to express financial hardship without directly saying you're poor:
(source ChatGPT)

1. "I'm on a tight budget right now."
2. "I'm watching my spending closely."
3. "I'm trying to save as much as possible these days."
4. "I'm cutting back on expenses for a bit."
5. "I'm being more frugal with my money lately."
6. "I'm trying to be financially cautious at the moment."
7. "I'm living simply these days."
8. "I'm prioritizing my needs over wants right now."

 

[JeffS7444]

I dunno what you consider "reasonable" prices, but if anything, I think true hifi sound has never been more accessible than it is today. Chances are, you already have access to excellent sonic fidelity via any number of mobile devices in your life, or with palm-sized boxes making up a "desktop stack", though the brands may be unfamiliar to you.

But OTOH if you wish to build a more traditional home hifi with brands you knew from the past, much of what used to be the entry- and mid-level part of the market simply no longer exists. In the world of stereo receivers, pickings are much slimmer today than in the past.

 

[GreeneDeux]

Here are a few ways to express financial hardship without directly saying you're poor:
(source ChatGPT)

1. "I'm on a tight budget right now."
2. "I'm watching my spending closely."
3. "I'm trying to save as much as possible these days."
4. "I'm cutting back on expenses for a bit."
5. "I'm being more frugal with my money lately."
6. "I'm trying to be financially cautious at the moment."
7. "I'm living simply these days."
8. "I'm prioritizing my needs over wants right now."

There is a difference between being poor and not wanting to waste money. You're not the only one, and respectfully, I don't appreciate the insinuation. I could spend hundreds, maybe even thousands on audio gear if really I wanted, sure, but to me it doesn't make sense. I guess I'd rather spend more efficiently in this hobby and put the money I save towards other hobbies that I also enjoy. Variety is the spice of life as they say...

 

[sam_adams]

Only way partly around it is buying used, but not recommended for food.

 

[Chrispy]

There is a difference between being poor and not wanting to waste money. You're not the only one, and respectfully, I don't appreciate the insinuation. I could spend hundreds, maybe even thousands on audio gear if really I wanted, sure, but to me it doesn't make sense. I guess I'd rather spend more efficiently in this hobby and put the money I save towards other hobbies that I also enjoy. Variety is the spice of life as they say...

I could spend a lot more than I do on audio, but I have other interests too and I have gear of very good quality now that satisfies me. If you do your research well you can have a very good setup for reasonable money, even in the hundreds. Just depends on what you want to afford.

 

[coonmanx]

The more I read around about hi-fi the more baffled and bewildered I become on the price tags of equipment... I see $3,000 speakers, $1,000 amplifiers and $500 headphones being hailed as "low price" "great value" "a steal" "budget" "affordable" etc... to me none of those are anywhere even close to being any of those things! Even $200 is already an awful lot for headphones by my reckoning. Just yesterday I saw a review in a magazine magazine calling itself "affordable audio" for a $680 amplifier, which dared to call it "affordable", and gave it their "best of the year" award... no, sir, that is not "affordable", that is half a month's rent! I'd feel like I got punked if I subscribed to that magazine and then got that nonsense in the mail for it!

Just crazy to me not only how high the price tags can reach (way higher than anything I've mentioned so far), but how expensive it goes before audiophiles stop calling it "cheap". There's a massive disconnect for me whenever I see someone (on a forum, in a review, in a video, in a magazine, whatever) talking about something that for me is unthinkably expensive as if it's some kind of great deal, usually touting something along the lines of "you get what you pay for" just to rub it in. I don't get it... and, I'll admit, it's frustrating. I don't see the value in any of it. Am I alone?

The used market has treated me very well. Also I built a really nice pair of speakers for about $200. Got a two way kit off of Ebay and then found some cabinets that I could use. And they sound wonderful.

Maybe it takes a bit of luck to find a decent used amplifier. But they are out there for sure. But you have to be patient. I recently scored a very nice MCS 3872 integrated amplifier off of Ebay for about $130. It works and sound great. No regrets there at all. In fact that one was made by NEC.

I do think that speakers are the thing that gets most overpriced. And t doesn't really need to be that way at all. Good to great speakers can be found for a lot less if you know where to look. Once again used if you know what to look for. Or possibly new from a place like Parts Express.

And finally the market always determines prices. And also how much someone is willing to spend.

 

[Keith_W]

We have all been there - love music, love sound, no money. I got through my student years listening to music on computer speakers.

And BTW - hi-fi these days is CHEAP! You can buy a dongle, plug it into your phone or laptop, and hook it up to some active monitors. Want to price up how much a turntable + Class A/B amp + speakers cost? That's how much your parents had to pay, and it wouldn't even come close to the quality of dongle + phone. And then they had to spend more money to buy music. You can listen to an unlimited quantity of music for free (if you don't mind some ads).

I don't think it is possible for DAC's to get any cheaper. Amps might get cheaper. But good quality speakers will always be expensive.

 

[tmtomh]

There is a difference between being poor and not wanting to waste money. You're not the only one, and respectfully, I don't appreciate the insinuation. I could spend hundreds, maybe even thousands on audio gear if really I wanted, sure, but to me it doesn't make sense. I guess I'd rather spend more efficiently in this hobby and put the money I save towards other hobbies that I also enjoy. Variety is the spice of life as they say...

There's a lot of subjectivity and variability in what we might consider cheap, affordable, expensive, and a good or bad value. So much of it has to do with your reference point. For some, the goal is a component-sized amp with a built-in power supply, superb linearity, very low distortion, no speaker-load dependence, and gobs of clean power. In that context, $700 is cheap or at least below the midpoint of the market. For others, a small amp with inferior linearity, distortion, and load dependence, in a small case with an external power brick, is perfectly fine and will sound great in most situations. In that context, $700 is outrageous and a terrible value.

From your original post to your subsequent comments including the one I've quoted above, it appears you'll want to use the latter reference point. There are excellent DACs available for very little money, and as I've noted very decent amps available cheaply. Speakers are tougher but still, there are some good performers out there for a few hundred bucks depending on your needs and expectations.

It does, however, seem that you're also bordering on simply not understanding what's involved in designing, sourcing parts, manufacturing, distributing, and marketing hi-fi stereo equipment. There are certain floors to what things cost given certain quality parameters and the realities of the costs of the inputs of production.

 

[pderousse]

Sky is the limit in this hobby. Sorry, I do not know how long you have been in audiophilia, but it appears that you have just driven across town and stumbled into an upscale Porshe dealership, where they they have on display the 911 Carerra GTS (c. $450K) and the salesman tells you it is affordable as he grins and silently motions his head toward the Ferrari dealership across the street. They also have several used Audis and VWs on the lot that might even be a stretch for you, given that you drove your 2009 Dodge T&C to the place. You just want a car, but car, as you discover [?], is a status item, just like watches, clothes, jewlery and furniture.

Do not listen to anyone telling you that you must find a different hobby.

You can still find an entry and begin to appreciate improved recorded audio playback. Partsexpress could be a reasonable onramp (and DIY is a great way to apply sweat-savings to improved quality as you learn). Also, ASR often reviews products that work for someone on a budget - Most people here definitely have one. However, those who buy $300k amps, like Ferraris, do not have budgets (or, rather, I sure as hell hope they don't have budgets).

Anyway, try this video: https://tinyurl.com/ycy5m27b [I cannot embed it here, but that is for another discussion]

Its made by a guy often maligned in these parts [sometimes unfairly I think] who is a decent source for knowledge about entry to mid-fi audio and some higher-end stuff, but his aim here is to discuss the attitude often found among elitists at both spectrums ('Well your Dodge seems so, uh ... practical' v. 'A Ferrari is stupid compared to my DIY hopped-up Miata, I would never buy one ... ['and probably could never possibly afford to buy one either,' muses the Ferrari owner].

My point is, there is room for all budgets / lifestyles, and the barrier to objectively higher quality has never been lower than it is now. Enjoy music.

 

[Palladium]

Incredibly good IEMs and dongles are now next to free.
Speakers are more expensive, but then again there's no point buying expensive speakers IMO if you aren't going have any room correction or treatment.

 

[Daverz]

The more I read around about hi-fi the more baffled and bewildered I become on the price tags of equipment...

The Apple headphone dongle and one of the Truthear x Crinacle Zero IEMs will give you SOTA sound for well under $100 IMO. If you are able to afford an iPhone...

 

[recycle]

There is a difference between being poor and not wanting to waste money. You're not the only one, and respectfully, I don't appreciate the insinuation. I could spend hundreds, maybe even thousands on audio gear if really I wanted, sure, but to me it doesn't make sense. I guess I'd rather spend more efficiently in this hobby and put the money I save towards other hobbies that I also enjoy. Variety is the spice of life as they say...

Here are some ways to convey that you're stingy without directly saying it:
(source ChatGPT)

1. "I'm very careful with my money."
2. "I prefer to save rather than spend."
3. "I'm quite thrifty by nature."
4. "I'm a bit of a penny-pincher."
5. "I like to get the most value for my money."
6. "I’m very budget-conscious."
7. "I make sure to spend wisely."
8. "I prioritize savings over splurging."

 

[GreeneDeux]

Anyway, try this video: https://tinyurl.com/ycy5m27b [I cannot embed it here, but that is for another discussion]

Ah, I stopped watching when he said "people aren't stupid"... kidding, kidding But, broadly speaking, I can't say I agree. If any of you remember Men in Black, I think Agent K said it best: "a person is smart, people are stupid". Interesting video. I suppose I do see some shades of the inverted snob in myself, though that's how I've been my whole life... through good times, through hard times... I've never understood the value in excessive and posh things. I do respect the engineering that goes into a Porsche for example, but wouldn't buy one. I especially wouldn't buy a luxury car like a Bently or a Rolls. Reminds me of that story about, I believe the Raj of India, who went to buy a Rolls and the salesman implied he wasn't good enough to drive a Rolls... he bought every car they had on-site and put them into service as street sweepers, lol. But, I digress.

I've seen a lot of replies talking about how there are in fact a good lot of genuinely low-cost hi-fi gear, and the barrier to entry really is low. That's certainly true - I'm piecing together exactly such a desktop system myself, and waiting on sales for good measure. But the more expensive stuff... I actually demoed an HD 600 at a music store once (among some other cans that I regrettably can't recall off the top of my head) and I didn't like how it sounded. The HD 579 sounded better, for a third of the price. So no, as tmtomh suggested, I suppose I really don't respect the engineering and designing that goes into these things. Not when the actual benefit of it all seems to be so minimal, at least. A Porsche has the benefit of being a a LOT higher-performance than any car or truck I've ever had. Driving in a Rolls (or perhaps more accurately, being driven in a Rolls) is certainly living in the lap of luxury. But I've never been truly blown away or impressed by hi-fi gear beyond the entry-level...

 

[pderousse]

Ah, I stopped watching when he said "people aren't stupid"... kidding, kidding But, broadly speaking, I can't say I agree. If any of you remember Men in Black, I think Agent K said it best: "a person is smart, people are stupid". Interesting video. I suppose I do see some shades of the inverted snob in myself, though that's how I've been my whole life... through good times, through hard times... I've never understood the value in excessive and posh things. I do respect the engineering that goes into a Porsche for example, but wouldn't buy one. I especially wouldn't buy a luxury car like a Bently or a Rolls. Reminds me of that story about, I believe the Raj of India, who went to buy a Rolls and the salesman implied he wasn't good enough to drive a Rolls... he bought every car they had on-site and put them into service as street sweepers, lol. But, I digress.

I've seen a lot of replies talking about how there are in fact a good lot of genuinely low-cost hi-fi gear, and the barrier to entry really is low. That's certainly true - I'm piecing together exactly such a desktop system myself, and waiting on sales for good measure. But the more expensive stuff... I actually demoed an HD 600 at a music store once (among some other cans that I regrettably can't recall off the top of my head) and I didn't like how it sounded. The HD 579 sounded better, for a third of the price. So no, as tmtomh suggested, I suppose I really don't respect the engineering and designing that goes into these things. Not when the actual benefit of it all seems to be so minimal, at least. A Porsche has the benefit of being a a LOT higher-performance than any car or truck I've ever had. Driving in a Rolls (or perhaps more accurately, being driven in a Rolls) is certainly living in the lap of luxury. But I've never been truly blown away or impressed by hi-fi gear beyond the entry-level...

I’m not understanding why exactly you disagree with Darko, but that’s fine (It’s not my thesis). As you can see from most comments before, you have many options. I’m sure you will find your way.

 

[TonyJZX]

hmmmm

i think this is partly about priorities

(EDITED BY MOD TO REMOVE POLITICAL SENTIMENTS- lets not go there pls)

let's put it like this... a Wiim Ultra is $329... its $600 here

I think min wage here is $800???? and if you're paying $400 rent and the rest then maslow's hierarchy is what you should be concerned about

obviously we live in the best time if you're into hifi

you can buy something like a $100 tpa3255. some really decent speakers, an SMSL dac and you're good to go.

Get a laptop as a music server and sail the seven seas jack sparrow!

things were a LOT worse in the past

like you had to spend thousands on decent gear and you had no internet to educate yourself, you relied on "what hifi" (!!!)

my sort of protip is not even 2nd hand. But stores still have clearance lines... I bought an Onkyo 7.2 for like 40% retail given they were leaving the market. Good stuff is out there.

 

[Sal1950]

I bought my first really good Hi Fi around $1975 based on a Marantz 2270 receiver which cost around $600 including the walnut case., (try to buy a nice used one on ebay right now, LOL) The Denon X4700H 9.2 channel AVR I got 2 years back was around $2,200 ,new, sealed, and shipped to my door direct from Denon, not bad after almost 50 years of inflation?
Excluding what goes on with the lunatics in the "high end and snake-oil land", there's never been a better time to purchase some excellent High Fidelity gear. The recording technology has progressed so far, today bringing us perfect digital copies of the original event that the mic's heard in the studio, something we only dreamed of 50 years ago. From there, a high percentage of very affordable electronics brings us completely "transparent to the source" components with only our speakers left to make sound quality preference decisions on during the final phase.
If you've been around this home music reproduction passion as long as I have, you should understand what a wonderful position we are living in today.
YMMV

 

[antcollinet]

The more I read around about hi-fi the more baffled and bewildered I become on the price tags of equipment... I see $3,000 speakers, $1,000 amplifiers and $500 headphones being hailed as "low price" "great value" "a steal" "budget" "affordable" etc... to me none of those are anywhere even close to being any of those things! Even $200 is already an awful lot for headphones by my reckoning. Just yesterday I saw a review in a magazine magazine calling itself "affordable audio" for a $680 amplifier, which dared to call it "affordable", and gave it their "best of the year" award... no, sir, that is not "affordable", that is half a month's rent! I'd feel like I got punked if I subscribed to that magazine and then got that nonsense in the mail for it!

Just crazy to me not only how high the price tags can reach (way higher than anything I've mentioned so far), but how expensive it goes before audiophiles stop calling it "cheap". There's a massive disconnect for me whenever I see someone (on a forum, in a review, in a video, in a magazine, whatever) talking about something that for me is unthinkably expensive as if it's some kind of great deal, usually touting something along the lines of "you get what you pay for" just to rub it in. I don't get it... and, I'll admit, it's frustrating. I don't see the value in any of it. Am I alone?

When I left university in 1983 I'd saved for a celebratory investment in hifi. I also had to put part of my first pay check in the hat.

I bought a Technics amp, tape deck and tuner stack (I already had a turntable and speakers inherited from my parents). I can't remember precisely, but each component was a little over £100 - so lets say £350 all in. It was all entry level stuff - lowest price from the technics range.

In today's money that would be about £1500 - for an entry level system.

Today - I could get significantly better performance and functionality out of a Wiim amp for around £320. Less than I paid in actual pound notes over 40 years ago.

Or I could get a top end performance amp and streamer (say purify amp + wiim Pro plus) for about that same £1500 in real terms.

So this stuff might still be expensive - but it is a hell of a lot cheaper now than it was then.