Pressed steel speaker chassis vs cast or plastic

[dfuller]

If the advantages aren't clear and it's more expensive, are you sure that it's a better choice?

Actually, yes - from an engineering standpoint it's better in pretty much every sense. Stiffer, less resonant, reduces distortion. Whether or not they're audible is a different question... Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.

 

[Roland68]

This is what OP aims for. They are more comfortable when it's more expensive.

Definitely a conspiracy to sell expensive chassis and speakers with cast baskets

 

[dshreter]

Quite important to this topic is the volume that a component will be manufactured. If prototyping a single component, machining or 3d printing can be the least expensive. Stamping and injection molding are extremely expensive to setup - but can be the least expensive when producing parts in large quantities.

If you want a speaker that is well engineering and delivers good value for the money, you actually want to see a company that is able to bring to bear more advanced manufacturing techniques over something crude like casting.

 

[dfuller]

Quite important to this topic is the volume that a component will be manufactured. If prototyping a single component, machining or 3d printing can be the least expensive. Stamping and injection molding are extremely expensive to setup - but can be the least expensive when producing parts in large quantities.

If you want a speaker that is well engineering and delivers good value for the money, you actually want to see a company that is able to bring to bear more advanced manufacturing techniques over something crude like casting.

To be clear, cast baskets are die cast aluminum that is then machined to its final shape. It's not like cast iron or anything.

 

[RobL]

Hmmm…if stamped steel baskets are just as high quality as cast aluminum baskets, one wonders why cast baskets would exist at all.

 

[voodooless]

Hmmm…if stamped steel baskets are just as high quality as cast aluminum baskets, one wonders why cast baskets would exist at all.

The same could be said about lots of stuff in audio, yet it still exists…

 

[Ktacos]

The same could be said about lots of stuff in audio, yet it still exists…

yeah, like a good dome tweeter basically renders the top end perfectly but that doesn't stop people from making or buying expensive exotic tweeters with problems.

I tend to buy the cast basket drivers because I just think they look nicer and easier to bolt into the cabinet. It's also not always intentional, a lot of the time the nicer performing driver I want happens to have a cast basket.

 

[dshreter]

Hmmm…if stamped steel baskets are just as high quality as cast aluminum baskets, one wonders why cast baskets would exist at all.

That's an overly simplistic way of looking at it. Stamped steel baskets can perform just as well as cast aluminum baskets. That doesn't mean one or the other is superfluous.

For example, I think it would be very difficult to stamp this basket for the racetrack driver in Genelec Ones.

Genelec 8361A Review (Powered Monitor)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Genelc 8361A studio monitor (powered active speaker). It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $4,995. The 8361A looks identical to the rest of the series except massively scaled up: It doesn't look it but it is extremely heavy. It has a...

www.audiosciencereview.com

But stamping works admirably for example in Neumann KH80.

Neumann KH80DSP Teardown

A friend of mine decided to look at the inside of the KH80DSP because he found the Neumanns run hotter than his JBL LSR305P MkII. Seems like there hasn't been any teardown picture of the KH80DSP on the internet. My friend kindly allowed me to share these disassembly pictures on this forum, so...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[RobL]

That's an overly simplistic way of looking at it. Stamped steel baskets can perform just as well as cast aluminum baskets. That doesn't mean one or the other is superfluous.

For example, I think it would be very difficult to stamp this basket for the racetrack driver in Genelec Ones.

Genelec 8361A Review (Powered Monitor)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Genelc 8361A studio monitor (powered active speaker). It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $4,995. The 8361A looks identical to the rest of the series except massively scaled up: It doesn't look it but it is extremely heavy. It has a...

www.audiosciencereview.com

View attachment 406542

But stamping works admirably for example in Neumann KH80.

Neumann KH80DSP Teardown

A friend of mine decided to look at the inside of the KH80DSP because he found the Neumanns run hotter than his JBL LSR305P MkII. Seems like there hasn't been any teardown picture of the KH80DSP on the internet. My friend kindly allowed me to share these disassembly pictures on this forum, so...

www.audiosciencereview.com

View attachment 406543

Why would the racetrack woofer be hard to make from stamped steel? Lots of examples of stamped racetrack woofers on google. In fact, if it wasn’t possible to make one to specs as engineered by Genelec, that kinda reinforces the idea about quality drivers, no?

 

[dshreter]

Why would the racetrack woofer be hard to make from stamped steel? Lots of examples of stamped racetrack woofers on google. In fact, if it wasn’t possible to make one to specs as engineered by Genelec, that kinda reinforces the idea about quality drivers, no?

The shape of that Genelec casting would be very difficult to make via stamping, with what looks to be a lot of right angles. On the other hand, casting the shape seen on the Neumann would be a waste of money leading to a more expensive speaker with virtually the same performance.

 

[RobL]

The shape of that Genelec casting would be very difficult to make via stamping, with what looks to be a lot of right angles. On the other hand, casting the shape seen on the Neumann would be a waste of money leading to a more expensive speaker with virtually the same performance.

I think if the basket were to be stamped, it wouldn’t resemble the cast basket at all. Any difference in design would be accommodated via the mounting.
With what little I’ve read about speaker production, I think one of the bigger differences, stamped vs cast, is tolerance. Stamped baskets aren’t (can’t be?) machined so the tolerances are on the order of .010”. Cast baskets are machined after casting to much tighter tolerances. This allows motor assemblies etc. to obviously have much tighter tolerances as well. I guess whether that is important or not is up to the manufacturer.

 

[Killingbeans]

I get that but if a speaker costs a considerable amount of money, measures and sounds good should cheap parts not matter?

No. Except for three cases:

• Knowing that your speakers have cheap parts in them gives you sleepless nights.
• Speakers with cheap parts in them are frowned upon in your circle of friends, and owning them degrades your social status.
• The cheap parts are proven to fail prematurely.

In most cases the really expensive stuff is just 99.99% bling. Like the finite element optimized zirconium overkill nonsense from Børresen:

In fact, expensive high performing speakers using cheap parts, are the result of good engineering. People, who would rather make you pay for precious materials than truly optimizing their designs in the areas that matter the most, are not doing you any favors.

 

[mhardy6647]

Electrovoice (e.g.) touted the robust, precise, and "permanent" alignment of the important parts of a driver when a cast basket was used.
Sure, it's marketing, but it certainly doesn't sound like a bad idea.
Even their (1961) entry-level Wolverine twincone drivers boasted nicely made cast frames at very modest price points.

source: https://www.alliedcatalogs.com/flipbook/1961_allied_radio_catalog.html pg. 68

I can offer some empirical/anecdotal evidence that sixty-three years later, these drivers are still doing fine. There are... far too many nice, and nicely made, EV drivers here.

 

[dfuller]

But stamping works admirably for example in Neumann KH80.

Neumann KH80DSP Teardown

A friend of mine decided to look at the inside of the KH80DSP because he found the Neumanns run hotter than his JBL LSR305P MkII. Seems like there hasn't been any teardown picture of the KH80DSP on the internet. My friend kindly allowed me to share these disassembly pictures on this forum, so...

www.audiosciencereview.com

View attachment 406543

This is actually really interesting, it shows that you can take the integrated grille off that tweeter. Might try it and see what happens.

 

[Penelinfi]

Cast frames may potentially offer better motor ventilation, less obstruction behind the cone, higher power handling as the basket will usually absorb a little bit more heat. That being said, you can usually engineer enough holes into a steel basket to have enough ventilation for most usage too. It seems that the basket material isn't necessarily a huge factor when it comes to good sound. Material perception may be a bigger factor when you look at it each day. Those expensive speakers with plastic trim. Or when they use the cheapest generic stamped steel grills on a $108,000 speaker instead of custom laser grills.

 

[Deleted member 58670]

One thing worth mentioning about stamped steel baskets is that they can have serious "ring" or resonance around a few hundred Hz, that is quite easy to hear if you run a measurement sweep on the driver. Very easy to fix with some damping.

 

[RoA]

Interesting replies and enlightening. Thanks to those that contribute rather than get defensive.

I guess you can damp a stamped steel chassis further with mastic or other damping pads of sorts.

The rear venting or potential lack of it when comparing cast with stamped steel, as mentioned above will probably play a role too.

I remember a pair of very cheap MS 20i Pearls I had many moons ago, I believe it was co designed by R Marshall of old Epos fame. The driver was integrated into the front baffle as a whole plastic moulding. I took it off and damped the waffle back of the baffle with tons of blue tack. Sounded great . I have not seen such a construction since. Lovely drivers for what was a budget speaker.

Not the pearl edition but the closest I could find.

After reading all your replies I would still rather have a solid, cast driver, ideally developed by the speaker manufacturer itself rather than an off-the-shelf solution for any speaker above a certain price point.

This price point is difficult to ascertain, but ELAC and the IAG group prove it can be done with their Quad, Mission and Wharfedale designs that often/almost always use in-house designed drivers even on budget designs. I really liked the S2's I had for a long time and I would get another pair anytime if I needed a non-active stand mount or desk top speaker. I am sure they could, if needed, design an active speaker that measures 'perfect' but a lot of people prefer designs that suit their tastes rather than being text book perfect.

At the higher end, give me an active ATC over a Kii anytime but that's just me. That is if ATC use threaded inserts rather than screws direct in to wood!

 

[Deleted member 58670]

I've used bitumen (asphalt) damping sheets. Cheap and very effective.

 

[RoA]

No. Except for three cases:

• Knowing that your speakers have cheap parts in them gives you sleepless nights.
• Speakers with cheap parts in them are frowned upon in your circle of friends, and owning them degrades your social status.
• The cheap parts are proven to fail prematurely.

In most cases the really expensive stuff is just 99.99% bling. Like the finite element optimized zirconium overkill nonsense from Børresen:

In fact, expensive high performing speakers using cheap parts, are the result of good engineering. People, who would rather make you pay for precious materials than truly optimizing their designs in the areas that matter the most, are not doing you any favors.

I may be shallow but perceived value plays a role in my decision making. That includes detail not 'just' the holistic whole. Where I have no preferences is in cone materials, tweeters or otherwise. What sounds good sounds good.

Being Swiss may has something to do with. I love watches and only wear mechanical ones. The engineering aspect fascinates me and I quite often enjoy wondering how something so intricate and (relatively) complicated can run within a second or two a day. I guess this marks my stance on hifi too. Yes, I enjoy a well engineered, good sounding product but there are other aspects I enjoy too.

I will stay out of this thread now as I have nothing more to say really but will read with interest any further replies on the subject and of course will ignore those that are simply offensive. Thanks.

 

[voodooless]

The engineering aspect fascinates me and I quite often enjoy wondering how something so intricate and (relatively) complicated can run within a second or two a day. I guess this marks my stance on hifi too

This may be the single best argument that engineering excellence isn't a guarantee for best performance