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Preamp Processor Guidance

JediGeo

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Hello Hometheater & HiFi Gurus I am in need of some guidance. I am somwhat new to this seen and as such are building a system. I recently picked up a used emotiva XPA-5. I know it's not the best but its what I have for now. I do know I want to go the separates route and so I am looking to get a preamp/ processor for my first serious purchase. Unfortunately, my search had gone cold as these units that I though were going to be at the top of my list (A7705, AVR10, HPT-1, and SDP-55) have fallen flat after Amirm generously reviewed them. This has left me confused and at a cross road. Therefore I am looking to the community for help. I mean there must be a unit out there slightly better than the rest. I say this as I am leaning towards the HPT-1 if only because it got slightly better marks but that is not saying much. I mean there must be one unit in the world that get it right.. Well that is my hope at least. I am also hoping I missed the diamond in the rough. Well I need to get a unit as my AVR died. Now this unit will be primarly used for75% HT and 25% music. My budget is 6k but would like to spend more like 4k. Now thinking a bit more I am also not apposed to two units separating the preamp from the processor if this will produce better results. Well, as can be seen I am open to any ideas. Thanks in advance for all the help and guidiance!!
 
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Dj7675

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Hello Hometheater & HiFi Gurus I am in need of some guidance. I am somwhat new to this seen and as such are building a system. I recently picked up a used emotiva XPA-5. I know it's not the best but its what I have for now. I do know I want to go the separates route and so I am looking to get a preamp/ processor for my first serious purchase. Unfortunately, my search had gone cold as these units that I though were going to be at the top of my list (A7705, AVR10, HPT-1, and SDP-55) have fallen flat after Amirm generously reviewed them. This has left me confused and at a cross road. Therefore I am looking to the community for help. I mean there must be a unit out there slightly better than the rest. I say this as I am leaning towards the HPT-1 if only because it got slightly better marks but that is not saying much. I mean thwre must be one unit in the world that get it right.. Well that is my hope at least. I am also hoping I mused the diamond in the rough. Well I need to get a unit at my lat AVR died. Now this unit will be primarly used for75% HT and 25% music. My budget is 6k but would like to spend more like 4k. Thanks in advance for all the help and guidiance.
I think it is best to think out these products like so...
-What room correction do you want? Audyssey/Dirac/ARC etc, or are you ok with any of them
-How important is stability of the platform, ease of use etc?
-Are balanced connections a must? Do you have issues with ground loops or have long cable runs?
-How many channels will you need?
I too went down the road of wanting separates, and like you got stuck with what processor to get. Nearly bought emotiva, but I don’t have time for something that doesn’t work reliably. After spending time here and reading some reviews, ended up with the Denon X8500. This was before it was tested but the X3600 had been tested so I hoped for the best. Seems to be 3 or so scenarios where people end up:
1-If you don’t need more than 11 channels of processing, get an x3700/x4700 and run it in full preamp mode if you don’t want to use the internal amps.
2-If you want 13 channels and have a use for any of the 13 channels of internal amplification, get the X8500. It offers the best performance to date and if running all 13 channels it would allow you to run 3/5/7 channels of external amplification and the internal amps for the rest.
3-The Monoprice HTP1- If you will be using all external channels. I believe the could of main issues that Amir found in the review were resolved. At 2.7V (Which I believe would work fine with your Emotiva) I believe the SINAD was excellent at over 100. Most importantly is users seem to be happy with stability etc. This doesn’t seem to be the case with the other brands at the moment.
 

circumstances

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Hello Hometheater & HiFi Gurus I am in need of some guidance. I am somwhat new to this seen and as such are building a system. I recently picked up a used emotiva XPA-5. I know it's not the best but its what I have for now. I do know I want to go the separates route and so I am looking to get a preamp/ processor for my first serious purchase. Unfortunately, my search had gone cold as these units that I though were going to be at the top of my list (A7705, AVR10, HPT-1, and SDP-55) have fallen flat after Amirm generously reviewed them. This has left me confused and at a cross road. Therefore I am looking to the community for help. I mean there must be a unit out there slightly better than the rest. I say this as I am leaning towards the HPT-1 if only because it got slightly better marks but that is not saying much. I mean thwre must be one unit in the world that get it right.. Well that is my hope at least. I am also hoping I mused the diamond in the rough. Well I need to get a unit at my lat AVR died. Now this unit will be primarly used for75% HT and 25% music. My budget is 6k but would like to spend more like 4k. Thanks in advance for all the help and guidiance.

I needed to replace my Anthem AVM20 pre/pro. I also wanted another pre/pro only, because my Anthem MCA50 amplifier is still working perfectly.

Based on Amirm's great review work, this forum, AVS Forum, and my own research, I bought the new Denon x3700h.

It came on Saturday, I started setting it up yesterday, I am using it in preamp only mode, with my MCA50.

Sounds great, very happy with the purchase, and I continue working on dialing it in.

For $1199 MSRP (I didn't pay that), it works as an HDMI 2.1 solution for me until I can justify dropping the big bucks on the newest Anthem pre/pro down the road (but I'm probably going to just stick with the 3700/MCA50 combo for a decade+).
 
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JediGeo

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Thanks to both of you for the input. I was trying to stay away from getting an AVR but the more I delve into it the more I find I can't justify the added cost of going the true seperate route. I think the x3700h will work for my purposes. Well maybe one day a pre/pro will be developed that will be worth its cost. Thanks again to the both of you!
 

circumstances

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Thanks to both of you for the input. I was trying to stay away from getting an AVR but the more I delve into it the more I find I can't justify the added cost of going the true seperate route. I think the x3700h will work for my purposes. Well maybe one day a pre/pro will be developed that will be worth its cost. Thanks again to the both of you!
I consider it the true separates route, because I'm using my amp, and I'm using the 3700 in preamp mode! lol
 
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JediGeo

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So looking into the AVR x4700h a little more have you had any issues with connecting your amp using the RCA conectios? As I am new to having a seperate amp I was thinking that for the best signal I should get a unit with balanced XLR inputs. Now I know that XLRs are perfered in long cable runs and since I am only going sub 6ft would you say XLRs would be overkill in this application? No going back to the Monoprice HTP-1 for a moment. That unit being 4K and the X4700h being 1.7K I can't understand this as X4700h looks to have all the bels and whistles in terms of formats in addition to the onboard Amps. I mean is Dirac Live amd the balanced XLRs the only reason for the difference ? To that point does it provide such a better experiance over Audyssey MultEQ XT32 to warrant the cost difference? Some understanding would be appreciated. Thanks!!
 

circumstances

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So looking into the AVR x4700h a little more have you had any issues with connecting your amp using the RCA conectios? As I am new to having a seperate amp I was thinking that for the best signal I should get a unit with balanced XLR inputs. Now I know that XLRs are perfered in long cable runs and since I am only going sub 6ft would you say XLRs would be overkill in this application? No going back to the Monoprice HTP-1 for a moment. That unit being 4K and the X4700h being 1.7K I can't understand this as X4700h looks to have all the bels and whistles in terms of formats in addition to the onboard Amps. I mean is Dirac Live amd the balanced XLRs the only reason for the difference ? To that point does it provide such a better experiance over Audyssey MultEQ XT32 to warrant the cost difference? Some understanding would be appreciated. Thanks!!

I have the 3700. no issues using RCA (had this amp connected to my AVM20 pre-pro with RCA for 18 years until I bought the 3700).

In my opinion you do not need XLR for a six foot run.

Can't weigh in on Dirac, as I've never used it.
 

Obelisk

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So looking into the AVR x4700h a little more have you had any issues with connecting your amp using the RCA conectios? As I am new to having a seperate amp I was thinking that for the best signal I should get a unit with balanced XLR inputs. Now I know that XLRs are perfered in long cable runs and since I am only going sub 6ft would you say XLRs would be overkill in this application? No going back to the Monoprice HTP-1 for a moment. That unit being 4K and the X4700h being 1.7K I can't understand this as X4700h looks to have all the bels and whistles in terms of formats in addition to the onboard Amps. I mean is Dirac Live amd the balanced XLRs the only reason for the difference ? To that point does it provide such a better experiance over Audyssey MultEQ XT32 to warrant the cost difference? Some understanding would be appreciated. Thanks!!

As long as you use reasonable quality RCA cables between the AV processor and the amps, that aren't too long (2 or 3 metres) you should be fine. Balanced cables work better for much longer runs and in more challenging (electrical noise) environments. Longer RCA cables are okay with subwoofers.

Regarding the differences between an HTP-1 and AVR-X4700H, take a look at these:
ATI show sample - likely similar to HTP-1 internals:
yRnf1C.jpg


Denon AVR-X4700H internal:
image


Notice all the empty space in the HTP-1 chassis, compared to the very crowded AVR-X4700H?

One would expect with less stuff (amplifiers) in the box the HTP-1 MIGHT benefit from:
- Having an over-specified power supply that could provide better filtered and stable voltages, supporting better performance
- With a lower component density, circuit trace routing can be better optimized, reducing noise and channel crosstalk
- Improved thermal stability (fewer components with more space around them)
- With the higher price point, higher quality components could be used, hopefully improving performance and reliability
- Lower density/complexity in the enclosure can improve reliability and maintainability

Room equalization, whether it is Audyssey, Dirac, ARC, etc., is a must have feature these days, but it's not magic. The room and proper speaker placement needed to be sorted out as well as possible, before adding room equalization. I suspect any modern room EQ solution, properly adjusted, should yield very similar results.

An often ignored aspect when looking at specifications of separates, is practicality. For example, while my system can easily produce a SPL of 110 dB, in my listening space I would NEVER intentionally listen to anything that loud. (Maybe a very occasional movie explosion, but that would be a very brief event.) So while good THD+N, SINAD and Dynamic Range measurements indicate something about the quality of the engineering inside a product, in a real listening room, most listeners are never going to fully explore these capabilities. Remember, 120 dB is the threshold of pain. Therefore, agonizing if a DAC or AV processor is capable of over 100 dB of dynamic range does not usually have a practical listening application. Again, not saying good measurements aren't important, but like having a high performance car without access to a closed track, for most of us, we are never going to approach the limits of good equipment.
 
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JediGeo

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Thanks for your helpful reply and perspective although I am still perplexed by the price difference as this seem to be a rare case where you spend more for less. Now the real queation if you were in my shoes would you spend the dough and get the HTP-1 or go the value rought and get the X4700H and why?
 

Dj7675

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Thanks for your helpful reply and perspective although I am still perplexed by the price difference as this seem to be a rare case where you spend more for less. Now the real queation if you were in my shoes would you spend the dough and get the HTP-1 or go the value rought and get the X4700H and why?
Before coming here I always assumed better performance from more expensive gear. This was obviously a very poor assumption. A larger brand such as Denon/Marantz I would think would have a huge advantage due to economies of scale. It would be interesting to now the quantity sold for example of the x3600. I would assume this also applies to AVRs vs Processors in general, even within the Denon/Marantz brand. I just wouldn’t think there would be much volume there either as it is really a lower volume item. If cost does’t really matter it really boils down to:
-Do you want 16 channels of processing
-Do you want Dirac or are you ok with Audyssey
 

Obelisk

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TL;DR: I just bought a Denon AVR-X4700H

Regarding spending more for less, welcome to specialty (Monoprice HTP-1) verses mass produced (Denon AVR-X) products.

The reason I responded to this thread in the first place, is I have just gone through this same decision making process with a similar budget in mind. (See here) The context for my purchase is replacing a Proceed AVP premamp/processor that I purchase new in 1999 for CND $7,343 (including the rack mount kit). While there was certainly more expensive equipment available at the time, the Proceed was most definitely high end. (Proceed was the AV branding of Madrigal Audio Labs, who make Mark Levinson) My ownership experience with the Proceed is as follows:
  • When new, it had an issue with the IR receiver that required factory service :facepalm:
  • Performance has been excellent and other than the initial issue, has been working flawlessly for over 20 years :D
  • There were four firmware updates. One of them added two-channel 24/96 support. The rest appeared to be bug fixes.
  • Promises were made about upgrades to support new formats, but that never happened. There was a trade-up program to the AVP2 :(
  • Unlike, as an example Theta Digital, Proceed has not existed for a long time now to even offer ongoing trade-up/upgrade products :(
Looking at the ATI/Monoprice HTP-1 and thinking about the Proceed AVP, I would expect a similar ownership experience. Having been left behind before, I would say HDMI 2.1/eARC support will be important going forward. While the HTP-1 might get an HDMI 2.1 upgrade board, I would guess that will cost $1,500, or some other number that is equivalent to buying a mass market new receiver. So the HTP-1 is $4,000 (CDN $5,250) today, plus maybe $1,500 for the HDMI 2.1 upgrade? (Plus shipping costs, import duty and taxes)

Regarding my decision:
  • I would agree with Dj675 above: Very few people have a room to implement 16-channels
  • There is no local dealer for the Monoprice HTP-1. The only way I can hear it is to buy it, pay to ship it, and if I don't like it, pay to ship it back.
  • Being outside the US, service support for the HTP-1 is more of a concern
  • Audyssey vs Dirac - Denon/Marantz have the the Audyssey app available now and Ratbuddyssey, so I don't think there is a big difference
  • Why isn't the HTP-1 sold under the ATI brand? Why doesn't ATI appear to sell an AV Processor? What will support be like? Upgrades?
  • The ability to turn off the amps in the Denon receivers is significant and has been demonstrated (thanks Amir) to improve performance
  • With Denon, there is a local dealer with a convenient return policy
  • Looking at the new Denon line-up, running in preamp mode, to me the differences are:
    • 3700 - Analog Devices and Cirrus Logic DSPs
    • 4700 - All Analog Devices DSPs :) and a second trigger output to control the "height" amplifier
    • 6700 - A 4700 with two more channels (DTS:X Pro isn't a benefit with fewer channels, so this feature gets a shrug)
    • 8500 - A 6700 with better DACs and internal amplifiers (provided an HDMI 2.1 upgrade)
  • If I wanted to spend Denon AVR-X8500H money, I might seriously consider the Monoprice HTP-1
  • Given the improvements in DACs in the last 20 years, a higher-end Denon receiver is likely to sound comparable to the Proceed AVP
  • Denon has been making incrementally improved receivers for a LONG time. I expect they are reasonably good at it by now.
  • For $1,700 (CND $2,300) the Denon AVR-X4700H checks all my boxes :D
    • My complaint - no gold plated terminals on the 4700
    • If I need to downsize, I could part with my four amplifiers (2x Parasound HCA-2200II left/right, Parasound HCA-1203 centre/surrounds, Rotel RB-960BX front height) and use the receiver's amps
 
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JediGeo

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Before coming here I always assumed better performance from more expensive gear. This was obviously a very poor assumption. A larger brand such as Denon/Marantz I would think would have a huge advantage due to economies of scale. It would be interesting to now the quantity sold for example of the x3600. I would assume this also applies to AVRs vs Processors in general, even within the Denon/Marantz brand. I just wouldn’t think there would be much volume there either as it is really a lower volume item. If cost does’t really matter it really boils down to:
-Do you want 16 channels of processing
-Do you want Dirac or are you ok with Audyssey
 
OP
J

JediGeo

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TL;DR: I just bought a Denon AVR-X4700H

Regarding spending more for less, welcome to specialty (Monoprice HTP-1) verses mass produced (Denon AVR-X) products.

The reason I responded to this thread in the first place, is I have just gone through this same decision making process with a similar budget in mind. (See here) The context for my purchase is replacing a Proceed AVP premamp/processor that I purchase new in 1999 for CND $7,343 (including the rack mount kit). While there was certainly more expensive equipment available at the time, the Proceed was most definitely high end. (Proceed was the AV branding of Madrigal Audio Labs, who make Mark Levinson) My ownership experience with the Proceed is as follows:
  • When new, it had an issue with the IR receiver that required factory service :facepalm:
  • Performance has been excellent and other than the initial issue, has been working flawlessly for over 20 years :D
  • There were four firmware updates. One of them added two-channel 24/96 support. The rest appeared to be bug fixes.
  • Promises were made about upgrades to support new formats, but that never happened. There was a trade-up program to the AVP2 :(
  • Unlike, as an example Theta Digital, Proceed has not existed for a long time now to even offer ongoing trade-up/upgrade products :(
Looking at the ATI/Monoprice HTP-1 and thinking about the Proceed AVP, I would expect a similar ownership experience. Having been left behind before, I would say HDMI 2.1/eARC support will be important going forward. While the HTP-1 might get an HDMI 2.1 upgrade board, I would guess that will cost $1,500, or some other number that is equivalent to buying a mass market new receiver. So the HTP-1 is $4,000 (CDN $5,250) today, plus maybe $1,500 for the HDMI 2.1 upgrade? (Plus shipping costs, import duty and taxes)

Regarding my decision:
  • I would agree with Dj675 above: Very few people have a room to implement 16-channels
  • There is no local dealer for the Monoprice HTP-1. The only way I can hear it is to buy it, pay to ship it, and if I don't like it, pay to ship it back.
  • Being outside the US, service support for the HTP-1 is more of a concern
  • Audyssey vs Dirac - Denon/Marantz have the the Audyssey app available now and Ratbuddyssey, so I don't think there is a big difference
  • Why isn't the HTP-1 sold under the ATI brand? Why doesn't ATI appear to sell an AV Processor? What will support be like? Upgrades?
  • The ability to turn off the amps in the Denon receivers is significant and has been demonstrated (thanks Amir) to improve performance
  • With Denon, there is a local dealer with a convenient return policy
  • Looking at the new Denon line-up, running in preamp mode, to me the differences are:
    • 3700 - Analog Devices and Cirrus Logic DSPs
    • 4700 - All Analog Devices DSPs :) and a second trigger output to control the "height" amplifier
    • 6700 - A 4700 with two more channels (DTS:X Pro isn't a benefit with fewer channels, so this feature gets a shrug)
    • 8500 - A 6700 with better DACs and internal amplifiers (provided an HDMI 2.1 upgrade)
  • If I wanted to spend Denon AVR-X8500H money, I might seriously consider the Monoprice HTP-1
  • Given the improvements in DACs in the last 20 years, a higher-end Denon receiver is likely to sound comparable to the Proceed AVP
  • Denon has been making incrementally improved receivers for a LONG time. I expect they are reasonably good at it by now.
  • For $1,700 (CND $2,300) the Denon AVR-X4700H checks all my boxes :D
    • My complaint - no gold plated terminals on the 4700
    • If I need to downsize, I could part with my four amplifiers (2x Parasound HCA-2200II left/right, Parasound HCA-1203 centre/surrounds, Rotel RB-960BX front height) and use the receiver's amps
TL;DR: I just bought a Denon AVR-X4700H

Regarding spending more for less, welcome to specialty (Monoprice HTP-1) verses mass produced (Denon AVR-X) products.

The reason I responded to this thread in the first place, is I have just gone through this same decision making process with a similar budget in mind. (See here) The context for my purchase is replacing a Proceed AVP premamp/processor that I purchase new in 1999 for CND $7,343 (including the rack mount kit). While there was certainly more expensive equipment available at the time, the Proceed was most definitely high end. (Proceed was the AV branding of Madrigal Audio Labs, who make Mark Levinson) My ownership experience with the Proceed is as follows:
  • When new, it had an issue with the IR receiver that required factory service :facepalm:
  • Performance has been excellent and other than the initial issue, has been working flawlessly for over 20 years :D
  • There were four firmware updates. One of them added two-channel 24/96 support. The rest appeared to be bug fixes.
  • Promises were made about upgrades to support new formats, but that never happened. There was a trade-up program to the AVP2 :(
  • Unlike, as an example Theta Digital, Proceed has not existed for a long time now to even offer ongoing trade-up/upgrade products :(
Looking at the ATI/Monoprice HTP-1 and thinking about the Proceed AVP, I would expect a similar ownership experience. Having been left behind before, I would say HDMI 2.1/eARC support will be important going forward. While the HTP-1 might get an HDMI 2.1 upgrade board, I would guess that will cost $1,500, or some other number that is equivalent to buying a mass market new receiver. So the HTP-1 is $4,000 (CDN $5,250) today, plus maybe $1,500 for the HDMI 2.1 upgrade? (Plus shipping costs, import duty and taxes)

Regarding my decision:
  • I would agree with Dj675 above: Very few people have a room to implement 16-channels
  • There is no local dealer for the Monoprice HTP-1. The only way I can hear it is to buy it, pay to ship it, and if I don't like it, pay to ship it back.
  • Being outside the US, service support for the HTP-1 is more of a concern
  • Audyssey vs Dirac - Denon/Marantz have the the Audyssey app available now and Ratbuddyssey, so I don't think there is a big difference
  • Why isn't the HTP-1 sold under the ATI brand? Why doesn't ATI appear to sell an AV Processor? What will support be like? Upgrades?
  • The ability to turn off the amps in the Denon receivers is significant and has been demonstrated (thanks Amir) to improve performance
  • With Denon, there is a local dealer with a convenient return policy
  • Looking at the new Denon line-up, running in preamp mode, to me the differences are:
    • 3700 - Analog Devices and Cirrus Logic DSPs
    • 4700 - All Analog Devices DSPs :) and a second trigger output to control the "height" amplifier
    • 6700 - A 4700 with two more channels (DTS:X Pro isn't a benefit with fewer channels, so this feature gets a shrug)
    • 8500 - A 6700 with better DACs and internal amplifiers (provided an HDMI 2.1 upgrade)
  • If I wanted to spend Denon AVR-X8500H money, I might seriously consider the Monoprice HTP-1
  • Given the improvements in DACs in the last 20 years, a higher-end Denon receiver is likely to sound comparable to the Proceed AVP
  • Denon has been making incrementally improved receivers for a LONG time. I expect they are reasonably good at it by now.
  • For $1,700 (CND $2,300) the Denon AVR-X4700H checks all my boxes :D
    • My complaint - no gold plated terminals on the 4700
    • If I need to downsize, I could part with my four amplifiers (2x Parasound HCA-2200II left/right, Parasound HCA-1203 centre/surrounds, Rotel RB-960BX front height) and use the receiver's amps
Thanks for showing your thought path and perspective.
 

bigguyca

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Here are some pictures of the Monoprice HTP-1. The ATI unit (see post above) and the Monoprice units are quite different.


Overall from front.jpg



Overall from side.jpg




Right side ref. front.jpg


Left side ref. front.jpg
 

Obelisk

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Here are some pictures of the Monoprice HTP-1. The ATI unit (see post above) and the Monoprice units are quite different.

bigguyca: Thanks for posting these images. Very informative.

I must say, I am a bit disappointed to see mounting point holes in the PCBs that are going unused. The image of the right-side, showing the HDMI input board at an angle is a bit concerning, as is the rear of the output board that was clearly intended to be secured to stand-offs on the front corners, but they appear to be just hanging in space. How is the analog - S/PDIF input PCB secured? The Kapton tape that is securing the display panel cable looks strange.

If you will excuse the dust, here's a 20+ year old Madrigal Audio Labs product - notice the chassis finish, power supply, PCB stand-offs and mounting screws compared to the HTP-1:
p3979148176.jpg

p3979148174.jpg

p3979148173.jpg

p3979148175.jpg

p3979148172.jpg
 

Ville

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Here's again the classic Rane tech note for interconnections. The one in Figure 5e usually works great with RCA to XLR:
https://www.ranecommercial.com/legacy/note151.html
It seems that the opposite, XLR to RCA, may be more problematic. If it is, a processor with only balanced outputs likely limits the choice of a properly working amplifier.

I value "working properly" really high. Of contemporary AVRs I have experience only about the Denon X3500 with XT32 room correction, so I am clearly biased. It works and does not crash, room correction works (ASR review), and its output voltage is high enough to drive my old Genelecs (with XLR input!). On top of that it measures at least good enough (review here on ASR) and cost me about 600 euros a year ago. Back then, the cheapest device with preouts and XT32, and measured by Amir. It really makes me wonder why anyone would want to spend almost ten times more to fight with, e.g., crashes and user interface bugs some of these boutique devices seem to have. Mass produced devices often work more reliably. Nowadays with Amir's measurements we also know that the Denons work also technically well. Personally I would still buy the cheapest Denon with the properties I need (preouts, minimum XT32, maybe HDMI 2.1) and use the possibly saved money on subwoofers, for example. Yes, that's plural!;)
 
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