Preamp needed? Help me to understand...

[carlo]

Not in a hurry for shopping, but I'd like to understand what the best next moves could be. I just bought a pair of Genelec 8030C black in really mint conditions, and like them very much.
Set their sensitivity at +6; also bought two sets of cables; balanced and unbalanced RCA terminated in order to make some various comparisons.

I also own a Linn hifi system (integrated amp Majik-I, Cd player Mimik, vinyl turntable and Keilidh floorstanding speakers) in the same room; I was not really satisfied with the sound which I found a bit "veiled" and not very "precise".

I ripped three or four CD's in order to make some tests with the gear I have; not scientific at all and also some connections have been a bit weird, still these are my subjective results:

1)Computer playing the ripped CD through Audient EVO 4, to Genelec via balanced connection = very good
2)Computer playing the ripped CD through Apogee Groove (it's a usb DAC and headphone amp, so connected to Genelec unbalanced with a Y cable) = very very good (best result of all)
3)Computer playing the ripped CD through Evo, then Groove going unbalanced to the aux input of my Linn integrated amp, then preamp out to Genelec = good but a bit of that "veiled sound" which I don't like that much began to be there.
4) Mimik CD player playing the physical CD, then to Genelec through the preamp out of the Linn integrated amp = about the same result as 3), with minor differences.

With differences related to the different DACS it seems that the preamp definitely colors the sound; nothing dramatic, but sort of laid back and less present (don't know how to explain better) so you find yourself raising volume in order to hear better.

Wanted to run another test, now excluding the Genelec from the equation, being self powered. I repeated the points 2) and 3) connecting now the EVO and the Groove to the power section of the integrated amp, thus powering my Keilidh floorstanders bypassing the preamp. My speakers never sounded that good, in the sense that everything was more clear; bass more tight and defined and more present midrange without the need of playing loud.

That said, I still prefer my new Genelecs but I understand that without a preamp I could not play LPs or CD through them; only, I think I have proved that every time the signal goes to my preamp it worsens a bit. It's just a matter of changing preamp or that performance loss is unavoidable? Would something - just to mention one - like the Shiit Saga 2 perform really more transparent? I should then provide a phono preamp and possibly a desktop DAC in order to avoid too many cables, adapters etc. Should that route be the one, I could decide to keep my passive speakers plus the amp section of my integrated as an option for some listenings.

Thank you for any suggestion and for reading this long post

C

 

[Sokel]

My head spins at what it would take for a proper gain-staging at 3 and 4.

Without detailed measurements and description all bets are off.

 

[carlo]

My head spins at what it would take for a proper gain-staging at 3 and 4.

Without detailed measurements and description all bets are off.

Ahaha I may understand, even if 4) is not that weird....it's a cd player + preamp + powered speakers, just because CD player has no gain adjustment, nor the Genelec have...

 

[Sokel]

Ahaha I may understand, even if 4) is not that weird....it's a cd player + preamp + powered speakers, just because CD player has no gain adjustment, nor the Genelec have...

Oh, right about four, I thought Gens had some level adjustment as most monitors.

 

[DVDdoug]

which I found a bit "veiled" and not very "precise".

...very good

...very very good (best result of all)

...good but a bit of that "veiled sound" which I don't like that much began to be there.

..about the same result as 3), with minor differences.

Sorry... but those words aren't defined (It's not your fault that you can't describe what you're hearing) but worse, none of that makes any sense.

"Digital is digital" unless you ripped to MP3* or another other lossy format.

And... most DACs and analog electronics are better than human hearing.

The preamp can possibly degrade the sound in a few ways:

1. Tone controls or other EQ will alter the frequency response.
2. You can get noise (hum, hiss, or whine in the background). Noise is not unusual from a phono preamp but the line inputs shouldn't have any audible noise. Noise is also easily identifiable... It's nothing vague like "veiled" sound...
3. If you turn it up too high you can push it into clipping/distortion but the Genelecs are likely to distort first.

With electronics those are ONLY 3 REAL characteristics of "sound quality". ...Of course you can have a weird problem like one channel being louder than other, etc. With speakers and room acoustics the main thing is frequency response, and the room acoustics create reflected soundwaves and other complications. See Audiophoolery

in order to avoid too many cables, adapters etc.

That's more likely to cause a reliability problem than a sound quality problem. If you have a broken shield (or an unshielded cable) with a phono connection or a line-level connection you might pick-up a hum or buzz. (Low-level phono connections are more sensitive to noise.)

thus powering my Keilidh floorstanders

Different speakers will ALWAYS sound different.

When you are comparing the sound it's important that the levels be matched. Louder generally sounds better. Your ears/brain make it sound like you've turned up the bass when you've only tuned-up the volume (Equal Loudness Curves). And we often perceive other changes when there's only a volume change... All of that is perfectly normal.

It's also important that the listening tests be done blind and that they are reliable and repeatable. That's a secondary reason for level matching. If "A" is louder than "B", you can always identify A or B so the test is no longer blind.

In most cases blind listening isn't useful when comparing speakers because they sound different and you can always identify A and B.

What is a blind ABX test?.
Controlled Audio Blind Listening Tests



* Good quality (high bitrate) MP3 can often sound identical to the original or it's usually very hard to hear any difference. Low quality MP3 can sound like a bad cell phone connection. (You're not likely to describe that kind of distortion as "veiled", or "less precise".)

 

[carlo]

Sorry... but those words aren't defined (It's not your fault that you can't describe what you're hearing) but worse, none of that makes any sense.

"Digital is digital" unless you ripped to MP3* or another other lossy format.

And... most DACs and analog electronics are better than human hearing.

The preamp can possibly degrade the sound in a few ways:

1. Tone controls or other EQ will alter the frequency response.
2. You can get noise (hum, hiss, or whine in the background). Noise is not unusual from a phono preamp but the line inputs shouldn't have any audible noise. Noise is also easily identifiable... It's nothing vague like "veiled" sound...
3. If you turn it up too high you can push it into clipping/distortion but the Genelecs are likely to distort first.

With electronics those are ONLY 3 REAL characteristics of "sound quality". ...Of course you can have a weird problem like one channel being louder than other, etc. With speakers and room acoustics the main thing is frequency response, and the room acoustics create reflected soundwaves and other complications. See Audiophoolery


That's more likely to cause a reliability problem than a sound quality problem. If you have a broken shield (or an unshielded cable) with a phono connection or a line-level connection you might pick-up a hum or buzz. (Low-level phono connections are more sensitive to noise.)


Different speakers will ALWAYS sound different.

When you are comparing the sound it's important that the levels be matched. Louder generally sounds better. Your ears/brain make it sound like you've turned up the bass when you've only tuned-up the volume (Equal Loudness Curves). And we often perceive other changes when there's only a volume change... All of that is perfectly normal.

It's also important that the listening tests be done blind and that they are reliable and repeatable. That's a secondary reason for level matching. If "A" is louder than "B", you can always identify A or B so the test is no longer blind.

In most cases blind listening isn't useful when comparing speakers because they sound different and you can always identify A and B.

What is a blind ABX test?.
Controlled Audio Blind Listening Tests



* Good quality (high bitrate) MP3 can often sound identical to the original or it's usually very hard to hear any difference. Low quality MP3 can sound like a bad cell phone connection. (You're not likely to describe that kind of distortion as "veiled", or "less precise".)

 

[Chrispy]

Not in a hurry for shopping, but I'd like to understand what the best next moves could be. I just bought a pair of Genelec 8030C black in really mint conditions, and like them very much.
Set their sensitivity at +6; also bought two sets of cables; balanced and unbalanced RCA terminated in order to make some various comparisons.

I also own a Linn hifi system (integrated amp Majik-I, Cd player Mimik, vinyl turntable and Keilidh floorstanding speakers) in the same room; I was not really satisfied with the sound which I found a bit "veiled" and not very "precise".

I ripped three or four CD's in order to make some tests with the gear I have; not scientific at all and also some connections have been a bit weird, still these are my subjective results:

1)Computer playing the ripped CD through Audient EVO 4, to Genelec via balanced connection = very good
2)Computer playing the ripped CD through Apogee Groove (it's a usb DAC and headphone amp, so connected to Genelec unbalanced with a Y cable) = very very good (best result of all)
3)Computer playing the ripped CD through Evo, then Groove going unbalanced to the aux input of my Linn integrated amp, then preamp out to Genelec = good but a bit of that "veiled sound" which I don't like that much began to be there.
4) Mimik CD player playing the physical CD, then to Genelec through the preamp out of the Linn integrated amp = about the same result as 3), with minor differences.

With differences related to the different DACS it seems that the preamp definitely colors the sound; nothing dramatic, but sort of laid back and less present (don't know how to explain better) so you find yourself raising volume in order to hear better.

Wanted to run another test, now excluding the Genelec from the equation, being self powered. I repeated the points 2) and 3) connecting now the EVO and the Groove to the power section of the integrated amp, thus powering my Keilidh floorstanders bypassing the preamp. My speakers never sounded that good, in the sense that everything was more clear; bass more tight and defined and more present midrange without the need of playing loud.

That said, I still prefer my new Genelecs but I understand that without a preamp I could not play LPs or CD through them; only, I think I have proved that every time the signal goes to my preamp it worsens a bit. It's just a matter of changing preamp or that performance loss is unavoidable? Would something - just to mention one - like the Shiit Saga 2 perform really more transparent? I should then provide a phono preamp and possibly a desktop DAC in order to avoid too many cables, adapters etc. Should that route be the one, I could decide to keep my passive speakers plus the amp section of my integrated as an option for some listenings.

Thank you for any suggestion and for reading this long post

C

I suspect the differences are mostly level related let alone blindly compared. Sometimes a pre-amp is needed, like vinyl, more often it is as a switching center when you have various sources and/or separate amps (or active speakers).

 

[carlo]

Thank you so much for your detailed response, which I appreciate. Just to make things clear, the room doesn’t come into play as I was not comparing the two different speakers (Linn and Genelec); just saying that through a bunch of experiments it seems to me that whenever it’s possible to exclude the preamp they sound better. That’s my perception, and it’s possible that unmatched levels or confirmation bias have played its role in my judgment, in one sense.
In any case I could not detect any buzz or hum or whine while listening.