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Preamp Input Impedance for MM Carts

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The accepted standard for MM phono preamp inputs is 47kohm. Is the peaking that many simulated models show for other impedances nonlinear? Could you use a good mic preamp instead (with better headroom and specs than many phono preamps) and apply PEQ at the output, or will there be FR changes depending on level?
 
A preamp typically has an impedance of around 1K. I'd expect that low impedance to roll-off the highs and probably attenuate the overall signal level (which can reduce your signal-to-noise ratio).

...A phono preamp is optimized for phono cartridges.

As you may know, MC cartridges are lower impedance and less-effected by load impedance, including capacitance, but they have lower output.

Headroom is almost never a problem. If you have a USB device (5V) that limits the voltage swing, but if it's USB it's usually got an analog-to-digital converter and it's usually designed so the preamp has enough headroom to clip the ADC. A separate preamp usually has a higher voltage supply. 12V is common, and + & -12V or + & -15V is not uncommon.
 
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47 kOhms was no doubt chosen as a compromise. From a noise perspective, you'd want it to be higher, but from a peaking / damping perspective it's hardly sufficient for some cartridges even with best-case capacitive loads as-is. You can accommodate more capacitive loading with lower resistance, but the top end of frequency response invariably is lower as well.

The best thing to do would be integrating a small FET buffer into the cartridge itself, thus making it active. I imagine doing so without negatively impacting move mass (for parts and potential extra cabling) or wrecking compatibility would be a challenge, but not infeasible. Integrating either the whole preamp or a buffer into the turntable would already constitute progress as well. (It has been done in the past but the circuits of the mid-1970s weren't exactly premium quality.)

Plan B would be a radical change in design approach, going from voltage input to current input and treating the cartridge as a current source instead (which would allowing using a transimpedance amplifier and applying some tricks from instrumentation). I have no idea whether the increased damping would negatively impact anything, and you would no doubt have to individually accommodate each cartridge type to get the right frequency response out of it. At least the response would already be a 1st order dropoff natively, so fairly little in terms of EQ should be required to get an RIAA out of it.
 
https://linearaudio.net/article-detail/2240 covers using a mic preamp and doing the RIAA filter with DSP. It includes schematics for a preamp to sit between the cartridge and the mic preamp for suitable loading, using phantom power.
Hi there, sorry bit late to this conversation. I’m looking to do just this but the link is broken. Is there any other way to reach the article?
 
Hi there, sorry bit late to this conversation. I’m looking to do just this but the link is broken. Is there any other way to reach the article?
https://linearaudio.net/record-replay-riaa-correction-digital-domain seems to be the new link, and the home page has the details of how to pay for it. It's $2.99 per article. Accompanying materials are at https://linearaudio.net/test-waveforms-scott-wurcers-digital-riaa-article-volume-10.

Since this thread there has been some discussion in another thread - in particular you should see this post where @Michael Fidler shares a schematic for the same application.
 
https://linearaudio.net/record-replay-riaa-correction-digital-domain seems to be the new link, and the home page has the details of how to pay for it. It's $2.99 per article. Accompanying materials are at https://linearaudio.net/test-waveforms-scott-wurcers-digital-riaa-article-volume-10.

Since this thread there has been some discussion in another thread - in particular you should see this post where @Michael Fidler shares a schematic for the same application.
If enough people are interested in this, I can do a board for public use using the OPA1692.
 
The accepted standard for MM phono preamp inputs is 47kohm. Is the peaking that many simulated models show for other impedances nonlinear? Could you use a good mic preamp instead (with better headroom and specs than many phono preamps) and apply PEQ at the output, or will there be FR changes depending on level?
If you were to use a mic preamp (approx 3k Ohm input impedance), you'd almost certainly end up with heavily rolled off response as you'd be primarily making a first-order LR filter with the cartridge inductance (capacitative reactance/tank effect will be heavily over-damped).

I'd be wary of simulations — cartridge manufacturers are known to exploit electrical resonances to flatten response dips or mechanical roll-off at the top of the band.
 
The line inputs on the Focusrite Scarletts are 60 kOhm, I believe. Could work for some cartridges possibly. There's no ground lug on the Focusrite like on regular phono stages, but I guess you can fix that...
 
The line inputs on the Focusrite Scarletts are 60 kOhm, I believe. Could work for some cartridges possibly. There's no ground lug on the Focusrite like on regular phono stages, but I guess you can fix that...
Can you get the necessary gain on the line input? I thought that was limited to the mic/instrument input.
 
The best thing to do would be integrating a small FET buffer into the cartridge itself, thus making it active. I imagine doing so without negatively impacting move mass (for parts and potential extra cabling) or wrecking compatibility would be a challenge, but not infeasible. Integrating either the whole preamp or a buffer into the turntable would already constitute progress as well.
I have done a full phono preamp as little as 5х2.5х45 mm and 1.2 gramm weight ! , especially for inside tonearm mounting. JFE2140 low noise jfet input + OPA2192 main RIAA amp = SNR 85 dBA, THD 0,0002%, 1 kHz gain 46 dB . Detailed description is here [ https://www.patreon.com/posts/anons-no-2-151864203 ], pictures are attached.
 

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On a m
The accepted standard for MM phono preamp inputs is 47kohm. Is the peaking that many simulated models show for other impedances nonlinear? Could you use a good mic preamp instead (with better headroom and specs than many phono preamps) and apply PEQ at the output, or will there be FR changes depending on level?
ore basic note, most phono stages over the decades have had 47 - 50k as the resistive load for MM pickups. SME tonearms also added capacitance inside the RCA plugs which could be snipped out if needs be, mainly I suspect for the Shure cartridges most often used, as these needed higher capacitance for best response I think many Ortofons of old were the same, especially the VMS models which offered an optional capacitor block (CAP210) which fitted snugly between the cartridge pins.

A friend of mine had a Technics SU3500 amp for some years and this had three settings for resistive loading (was it 33k, 47k and 68k?). Using a V5 III cartridge, the sound went dull or bright depending on the extreme, but neither extreme was a good I thought.



Subjective P.S. with some measurement evidence if you look for it - Some pickups today have hf peaks at 10kHz or higher, others still have a down-tilt above 1kHz. The response can be measured, but the subjective effects do still seem to vary - Not sure anally playing with loading quite fixes it, as @Michael Fidler above suggests.
 
Several 70's recievers/pre-amps had 3-4 different steps for loading a MM, -I have seen: 33k/47k-50k/68-75k and 100k, - many of the CD4/Quadro carts were optimized for 100k ohm.
 
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