Powerline network interference noise

[TimVG]

Hi Guys

I've been playing around with some Genelec 1032A speakers, an older model which is still available in a newer iteration. Anyhow, due to circumstances I have 4 network-over-powerline adapters installed in my house as we need both WiFi and wired network at certain points in the house. These speakers (and an older subwoofer of mine as well in fact) seem very prone to interference noise caused by these adapters.

I purchased a Furman AC-210 A E power conditioner from Thomann, to no avail. It does absolutely nothing in terms of filtering out noise caused by these adapters.

**I did doublecheck if it were in fact the adapters (despite being 99% sure) by unplugging them. Zero noise after unplugging.

Is there some sort of filter that doesn't cost and arm and a leg that I could purchase to remedy this issue?

Thank you all in advance.

 

[RayDunzl]

Hmm...

Is the noise being picked by the power supply, or through the air from the radiation of the powerline antenna you created?

Maybe plug one adapter into an extension cord and wave the adapter and/or the extension near the gear and listen.

Plug the extension into the neighbor's house, or a generator, or an inverter off a battery, or a UPS running on battery, if feasible.

Either way, if the noise changes as the adapter moves, I might be less inclined to think the noise is in the "power".

 

[TimVG]

Hmm...

Is the noise being picked by the power supply, or through the air from the radiation of the powerline antenna you created?

Maybe plug one adapter into an extension cord and wave the adapter and/or the extension near the gear and listen.

Plug the extension into the neighbor's house, or a generator, or an inverter off a battery, or a UPS running on battery, if feasible.

Either way, if the noise changes as the adapter moves, I might be less inclined to think the noise is in the "power".

I'll give this a try - thanks for the tip.

 

[digitalfrost]

I'm not sure if the Furman AC-210 A E contains an HF filter. I actually plugged my Powerlan adaptors into an extension with filter and wondered why they didn't work lol. Here's what I'm using:

https://www.brennenstuhl.com/en-DE/...-with-surge-protection-4-way-3m-h05vv-f-3g1-5

 

[Tatteredmidnight]

Hmm...

Is the noise being picked by the power supply, or through the air from the radiation of the powerline antenna you created?

Maybe plug one adapter into an extension cord and wave the adapter and/or the extension near the gear and listen.

Plug the extension into the neighbor's house, or a generator, or an inverter off a battery, or a UPS running on battery, if feasible.

Either way, if the noise changes as the adapter moves, I might be less inclined to think the noise is in the "power".

I had track lighting that would induce a noticeable hum in my powered monitors. After posting a similar inquiry as OP to this site, I got a similar suggestion. After connecting the speaker to a UPS that was unplugged from the mains, the noise remained. Clearly it was an RF issue and I just refrained from using those lights.

 

[TimVG]

Hmm...

Is the noise being picked by the power supply, or through the air from the radiation of the powerline antenna you created?

Maybe plug one adapter into an extension cord and wave the adapter and/or the extension near the gear and listen.

Plug the extension into the neighbor's house, or a generator, or an inverter off a battery, or a UPS running on battery, if feasible.

Either way, if the noise changes as the adapter moves, I might be less inclined to think the noise is in the "power".

So, the noise pretty much stays the same independent on distance. I also have 2 'non-wifi' adapters and the noise remained with one of those in place in my media room as well. The noise increases as bandwith usage increases (streaming audio, video, downloading large files, ..)

Unplugging the adapter in my media room cures the noise coming from the speakers though.

 

[TimVG]

I'm not sure if the Furman AC-210 A E contains an HF filter. I actually plugged my Powerlan adaptors into an extension with filter and wondered why they didn't work lol. Here's what I'm using:

https://www.brennenstuhl.com/en-DE/...-with-surge-protection-4-way-3m-h05vv-f-3g1-5

Will order one of these tomorrow to try. Fingers crossed.

 

[Wes]

can you dump the network-over-powerline adapters and solve the whole problem by going with a mesh WiFi system?

might be a way to stub out via wired from a WiFi node if you need that

 

[RayDunzl]

So, the noise pretty much stays the same independent on distance. I also have 2 'non-wifi' adapters and the noise remained with one of those in place in my media room as well. The noise increases as bandwith usage increases (streaming audio, video, downloading large files, ..)

Unplugging the adapter in my media room cures the noise coming from the speakers though.

Maybe you only have a problem when the adapter is on the same branch circuit (breaker) as the audio gear.

Is there a nearby outlet not on the same breaker? Maybe run an extension to it, until you figure out the best next step.

 

[TimVG]

can you dump the network-over-powerline adapters and solve the whole problem by going with a mesh WiFi system?

might be a way to stub out via wired from a WiFi node if you need that

If there's no cheaper solution that's effective, it's an option I suppose. Since none of my 'newer' active monitors seems to suffer however I do hope a good filter will be able to block out the noise.

 

[AnalogSteph]

Ironically, it's those who tend to be most annoyed by powerline networking technology who stand the best chance of making it work well - folks with radio affinity. Marketing and reality are far apart with this stuff - advertised as a simple and easy alternative to WiFi where that won't work, in real life it can be anything but while radiating a fair amount of RF interference (way past nominal legal levels, actually).

In order to minimize interference, you need to minimize the RF output. For that to happen, the adapters must be able to hear each other as well as possible, so they'll be able to reduce output power. This means:
1. Adapters must be plugged directly into wall outlets as per instructions.
2. Any problematic switch-mode power supplies must be relegated behind a mains filter (an actual filter with L and C and such, not just an overvoltage protection thingy) to keep them from polluting the mains wiring. (Go through what you have and unplug them while observing interference levels. Not just one by one but also as many as possible at once.)
3. If adapters are plugged into different phases, these may need to be coupled RF-wise in the main electric panel by an electrician. Otherwise transmission losses between them could be very high, making the adapters transmit at full tilt.

See where this gets you. If my hunch is right, you should also be seeing a substantial improvement in throughput. (If there are any radio enthusiasts left in the vicinity, they should be delighted as well.) If the problematic speakers still aren't happy, get them a mains filter.

In general I would recommend using this technology only for very problematic runs, e.g. getting into a basement with thick concrete walls (and ceiling) all around. Elsewhere you can often find an acceptable combination of cables and access points. The hassle associated with drilling a hole through the ceiling may also be worth it after all. Nothing beats a good ol' network cable.

You say the issues is having both WiFi and wired LAN available? Well, have you considered a WiFi bridge by any chance?

BTW, it can't hurt to check the problematic speakers for potential pin 1 issues either. They may not yet be AES48 compliant.

 

[TimVG]

I'm not sure if the Furman AC-210 A E contains an HF filter. I actually plugged my Powerlan adaptors into an extension with filter and wondered why they didn't work lol. Here's what I'm using:

https://www.brennenstuhl.com/en-DE/...-with-surge-protection-4-way-3m-h05vv-f-3g1-5

The 8 plug version was delivered today, first impression is that it's a major improvement! it's not totally gone, but we're down to the point where it's not bothering me at the listening seat. Thanks for the tip!

 

[TimVG]

Ironically, it's those who tend to be most annoyed by powerline networking technology who stand the best chance of making it work well - folks with radio affinity. Marketing and reality are far apart with this stuff - advertised as a simple and easy alternative to WiFi where that won't work, in real life it can be anything but while radiating a fair amount of RF interference (way past nominal legal levels, actually).

In order to minimize interference, you need to minimize the RF output. For that to happen, the adapters must be able to hear each other as well as possible, so they'll be able to reduce output power. This means:
1. Adapters must be plugged directly into wall outlets as per instructions.
2. Any problematic switch-mode power supplies must be relegated behind a mains filter (an actual filter with L and C and such, not just an overvoltage protection thingy) to keep them from polluting the mains wiring. (Go through what you have and unplug them while observing interference levels. Not just one by one but also as many as possible at once.)
3. If adapters are plugged into different phases, these may need to be coupled RF-wise in the main electric panel by an electrician. Otherwise transmission losses between them could be very high, making the adapters transmit at full tilt.

See where this gets you. If my hunch is right, you should also be seeing a substantial improvement in throughput. (If there are any radio enthusiasts left in the vicinity, they should be delighted as well.) If the problematic speakers still aren't happy, get them a mains filter.

In general I would recommend using this technology only for very problematic runs, e.g. getting into a basement with thick concrete walls (and ceiling) all around. Elsewhere you can often find an acceptable combination of cables and access points. The hassle associated with drilling a hole through the ceiling may also be worth it after all. Nothing beats a good ol' network cable.

You say the issues is having both WiFi and wired LAN available? Well, have you considered a WiFi bridge by any chance?

BTW, it can't hurt to check the problematic speakers for potential pin 1 issues either. They may not yet be AES48 compliant.

Thanks for the detailed response. These are things I'll definitely look into. In the short term, the power block with filter does seem to solve the issue for the most part.