• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Power Supply Mod Testing for Schiit Magni 3+

Ken Tajalli

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 8, 2021
Messages
2,065
Likes
1,843
Location
London UK
Heresy has the same PS.
There isn't much (if anything) to gain here by lowering noise or increasing the power rating of the used power supply.
Now we are getting somewhere!
Heresy using the same PSU and having much cleaner output, means simply, that the issue is not with the PSU, but the circuit that comes after.
So you would be correct in saying there isn't much to gain by tinkering with the PSU.
As a side note, I believe that Schiit engineers (why did they use that name :)) used the minimum voltage required from AC adaptor to keep voltage differential across the regulars to a minimum (power dissipation), so they wouldn't need heatsinks nor a bigger AC supply, which means few cents of savings on manufacturing.
But since Heresy's output is clean, it means they knew what they were doing.
Basically, noise rejection in Magni3+ is not as good as Heresy.
 
Last edited:

solderdude

Grand Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
16,023
Likes
36,348
Location
The Neitherlands
It is a double halfwave rectifier to make a + and - DC opposite common.
It is easy to see in the layouts how the diodes are wired and the common is between the reservoir caps and current is not just drawn between + and - rail (which makes it a doubler) but to common.
The circuit is the same though but the load connection is what makes this a 'doubler'.
 
Last edited:
D

Deleted member 48726

Guest
But is it significant or just barely louder ?
Would you know if an amp clips at a 0.8dB higher level ?
It is not the same as dialing the volume up 1dB.
But it could be the difference between audible clipping vs. inaudible clipping. Then the difference is significant.
 

solderdude

Grand Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
16,023
Likes
36,348
Location
The Neitherlands
In both cases the amp clips (1% distortion) at 400mW, which happens to be the spec as well so clipping is exactly the same, not even 0.1dB difference in level there.
Let's be real .... there simply is NO audible difference here in clipping and the clipping power levels are exactly the same.
Just a slight measured difference in the 'knee' where distortion starts to rise and that is only 0.8dB difference and this level is far, far below any audible levels so inconsequential.
This, more than likely has nothing to do with the modification at all.
That 0.8dB level difference in the 'knee' is inaudible.
 
Last edited:

ElJaimito

Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2019
Messages
37
Likes
38
It is a double halfwave rectifier to make a + and - DC opposite common.
It is easy to see in the layouts how the diodes are wired and the common is between the reservoir caps and current is not just drawn between + and - rail (which makes it a doubler) but to common.
The circuit is the same though but the load connection is what makes this a 'doubler'.
Ah, my eyesight ain't so good. Prefer schematics, or having it in my hand. Yes the voltage doubler works fine with half the ripple, but that half also appears at the midpoint. It's just I couldn't get my head around using half wave rectification in a precision audio product...
 

Owl

Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2022
Messages
78
Likes
118
Texas Instruments does recommend using small ceramic caps on the input side, if there is some distance between rectification and the regulator. What would be the problem on the output side?
 

eliash

Senior Member
Joined
May 29, 2019
Messages
408
Likes
209
Location
Bavaria, near lake Ammersee
- Once used such a regulator to drive an active broadband antenna design (30KHz-30MHz). I noticed considerable low frequency noise (below 120KHz) clearly audible in this frequency range with a JRC radio in regular AM mode (noise about 1-2 digit µV range). A large cap of about 1000µF at the output of the regulator lowered this noise significantly and below the radios idle noise level, probably due to its low ESR in that frequency range.
- Same thing experienced with a poor DAC power supply design, having claimed using low noise regulators to supply the audio circuit of an early ES90xy DAC chip (which has negligible noise attenuation from the audio power rails towards the audio outputs!). 3x 100µF in parallel significantly reduced the semiconductor shot noise from the regulators at low sound levels.

If it was my Shiit DAC, I would keep their design for the sake of knowing about the above!
...Need to add that the power rail noise from the regulators by itself can be heard easily at the ESS Sabre 9018 DAC output, when playing a DC-signal file (e. g. 50% of max. DAC amplitude output), otherwise, when playing sound files, the power rail noise modulates the output signal and lessens the quality...
 

Linearphass

Member
Joined
May 30, 2020
Messages
23
Likes
10
Location
Houston
I agree with most of your comments, including working w these guys for... erhm... a lot of decades! ;-)

Thoughts...
Ancient Tech, yep thats true, but hey, they work well, and they're cheap! With that bypass cap on the regulator pin, they are significantly quieter than a basic 78xx fixed reg. And, it looks like Amir proved that the changes didn't result in meaningful differences in overall noise.

I've also seen many circuits with >1000uf on the output without issues. I don't know where the modder is getting the "shouldn't have too low of an ESR on the output" idea, it doesn't seem to be in the datasheet! If you have LDO regs, now they DO have sensitivity to output cap ESR, and may oscillate if its wrong... but its usually because ESR is too high.

Measuring fast spikes, and in the <10mV range on a scope is a tricky thing, without special equip and techniques. Do you have a high speed differential probe? Did you rig up a way to minimize the ground connection to as short (few mm) as possible, or do you have the usual 4" ground lead? All the difference shown could be just how the probe and ground clip laid out on the board differently, the second time it was measured. Really, if you want to try to minimize high freq spikes, you WOULD put small value, low ESR caps across the output rail, and of course around the circuit, as they likely are.

On the diodes, well, yes its safer. But, the output, inside of a larger device like this, shouldn't ever get shorted, vs you are making a bench power supply, where there a likely chance it would. Prove to yourself your circuit won't ever look like a short and you can drop that. And if you see that you always drain output before input, you can drop the other. Id also have to say in most commercial circuits I've seen, the diodes werent implemented. Belt and suspenders, vs save costs. I would imagine Jason looked that over and deemed it safe, and went on with the another design concern... keeping the Magni at the low price point.

Jason could have put in some of the sexy, ultra low noise LDO parts that are available, had >10X less noise.... with parts that maybe cost 5-10X, and need special output caps, also 5-10X... but would you notice, in the final amp performance? (Or even be able to measure it?)

Or... use a venerable set of regulators that are cheap and good enough because of the high PSR of the rest of the circuit, and have it work pretty much as well for $20 less in final price?

I think a lot of the "picking on the designer" thinking loses track of the bigger picture, sometimes. ;-)
 

Linearphass

Member
Joined
May 30, 2020
Messages
23
Likes
10
Location
Houston
Absolutely right about measuring supply noise.
In addition inexpensive scopes commonly used in DIY or small businesses are quite noisy. I lifted this off the web but It is close to the technique I have used for years:

I am going to contribute the technique that I use for measuring power supply ripple and noise. HP used to the term PARD, meaning Periodic And Random Disturbances.

This is the schematic:



The setup:



A photograph of the DC block, you can also see the 50 ohm series termination at the end of the coax. Its soldered directly across the output capacitor:



This setup ensures a 50 Ohm measurement environment. The output from the power supply is very much less than 50 Ohms so we need the series termination resistor to prevent reflections in the cable.

The trick is to solder the probe to the supply output directly to the board with a very short ground lead. Note than since this probe is ac coupled tit will not show the dc voltage, just the ac component. For most audio circuits the scope bandwidth should be limited to 20Mhz or lower. This probe could also be used with an audio analyzer to look at the noise in the frequency domain.
 

fpitas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 7, 2022
Messages
9,885
Likes
14,207
Location
Northern Virginia, USA
Texas Instruments does recommend using small ceramic caps on the input side, if there is some distance between rectification and the regulator. What would be the problem on the output side?
Linear regulators are a feedback system, and are designed with a certain range of capacitance at input and output. If you move the capacitors away too far, the regulator "sees" the inductance of the track to the capacitor.
 

KSTR

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 6, 2018
Messages
2,759
Likes
6,168
Location
Berlin, Germany
Hhm, did anyone notice the rather large 1R break-out resistors for that supply? These will dominate load regulation and therefore making the regulator's output cap any larger than a few 10's of microfarads (with medium ESR) doesn't buy us anything. Therefore I think the mod is fine as-is and removes some stress and risks from the regulators.
 

Old Iron

Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2022
Messages
36
Likes
16
WOW,
This C3, 4, 5 ,6 mods have some practical, real world application problems. LM317 are not LDO regulators. As other members indicated.

I would first change D1 & D2 to a bridge rectifier design. Boosting the regulator voltages.
And produce symmetrical ripple and noise. Which is easier to filter and suppress.
The LM3XX regulator series are best running 30% to 60% load.
Has anyone measured or calculated the idle current of the amp?

Next problem is no RFI, EMI filtering on the input to the regulators.
Wall wort's are AC line noise and AM radio transmitter noise generators!

Second my first easy mod is install film caps across C3, 4, 5, 6,
Sorry R1 & R2 1/4 Watt SMD 603 Chip resistor!!!
All bets off!
 

Old Iron

Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2022
Messages
36
Likes
16
KSTR, R2 &R3 correct?

My best brick wall power supply benchmark. Big ass Gell cell batteries.
 

Old Iron

Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2022
Messages
36
Likes
16
The endgame is how much better does it sound!
Keep it real, Made in the USA!
One companies offering dirt cheap.

I might buy one to evaluate. Then do my basic mods.
I live in Maryland, USA.
I have a UPS account.
And would be willing to ship and share among contributors.
Surf's Up!
 

pablolie

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 8, 2021
Messages
2,094
Likes
3,533
Location
bay area, ca
I use upgraded power supplies for my Squeezeboxes. Not because it improves sound, but because cheap power supplies have caused me issues, especially and annoyingly interfering with remote control operation. Never an issue again.
 

Old Iron

Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2022
Messages
36
Likes
16
Nice response Sir.
Always keep a back up in your gig bag!
After 30 plus yeas of live sound engineering.

First test of all systems is failure mode!
I ran FOH at the bayou in DC. for Leslie West solo.
His band and road crew "Detained leaving some western state!

SORRY THIS IS SO OFF SUBJECT.
 
Top Bottom