power supplies for streamers

[Martin]

Cool, I would now go and read up on all of the tests at ASR that demonstrate how useless power supplies are on properly designed gear.
I would provide measurements to support my anecdote if I felt there was new science on the interaction of power supplies.

The alternative seems to be legitimizing this:

$1200 on craigslist, battery is extra. I recommend fuses, especially if this is hooked up to even more expensive gear, and especially if you intend to keep it open on a piece of pine.

Altmann BYOB Attraction DAC - electronics - by owner - sale - craigslist

Up for sale is a tuneful sounding Altmann Attraction NOS DAC offered by the original owner. If you value truthful tonal presentation of music, this dac may be the ticket.Upgraded to its highest...

portland.craigslist.org

Now that BYOB site is one crazy website. Reminds me of some others Ive come across in my audio journey.

Martin

 

[MaxBuck]

No you are not. That is the whole thing about expectation bias.

Something something Fight Club something...

 

[Devnull]

There are 2 scenarios that upgrading a power supply in a streamer will help.

1. The original power supply was designed poorly and is a piece of crap.
2. The streamer was designed poorly and the engineering of it's internal voltage rails is crap.

Either way it's fixing a problem that shouldn't need to be fixed. Anyway you look at it it's a pile of crap and should just be flushed down the toilet.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Cool, I would now go and read up on all of the tests at ASR that demonstrate how useless power supplies are on properly designed gear.
I would provide measurements to support my anecdote if I felt there was new science on the interaction of power supplies.

The alternative seems to be legitimizing this:

$1200 on craigslist, battery is extra. I recommend fuses, especially if this is hooked up to even more expensive gear, and especially if you intend to keep it open on a piece of pine.

Altmann BYOB Attraction DAC - electronics - by owner - sale - craigslist

Up for sale is a tuneful sounding Altmann Attraction NOS DAC offered by the original owner. If you value truthful tonal presentation of music, this dac may be the ticket.Upgraded to its highest...

portland.craigslist.org

"Eddies," said Ford, "in the space-time continuum." "Ah," nodded Arthur, "is he?"

 

[MAB]

"Eddies," said Ford, "in the space-time continuum." "Ah," nodded Arthur, "is he?"

Yes, the "space-time wash". This would fit in nicely there, after taking a bath on the purchase price...

 

[klettermann]

>>bump<< Sorry to resurrect this, but I thought this might justify it.

As of late I've been chasing hum (another story) leading to some ASR discussions about whether external power supplies, wall-warts, etc. “matter” for DACs, streamers or anything else. Rather than debate mechanisms in the abstract, I did a simple before/after measurement exercise in my own system and wanted to share the results.

Setup:

• Same room, same mic position
• Same electronics, all turned on, same DAC / streamer / DSP chain
• Measurements taken with REW, identical settings. It's quiet room.
• No DSP, EQ, or filtering differences between runs (but wouldn't matter cause there's nothing playing except any measurable system noise)
• Conditions:
  1. Wall warts on separate circuit feeding a DAC (Modius e), DSP processor (MiniDSP Studio + remote control dongle and 2 ethernet switchs)
  2. Wall warts were then all replaced with a Cioks DC7

Conditions:
1. Stock wall-warts on a separate circuit feeding:

• DAC (Modius E)
• DSP processor
• (MiniDSP SHD Studio + remote dongle)
• Two Ethernet switches

2. All wall-warts replaced with a single Cioks DC7 powering the same devices

Results:
Attached are two plots:

1. Baseline noise floor (original power configuration)

2. Noise floor after power changes

What’s interesting is not any single spike, but the broadband reduction:

• Several dB lower noise floor from roughly 1kHz up through a 10kHz. This was repeatable.
• Clear reduction in low-frequency hash and mains-related components
• No changes above the system’s inherent noise limit

To be clear, I’m not claiming this proves some audibility improvement, “sound quality,” or that power supplies alter digital bits, blacker blackness, holographic sparkle, etc, etc. What it does show is that:

• Power and grounding choices can measurably change the electrical / acoustic noise environment
• Some wall-wart / shared-circuit configurations are objectively noisier than others
• These effects are can be visible and easily measured without exotic test setups or equipment

If someone wants to argue why this happens (ground impedance, leakage currents, SMPS common-mode noise, etc.), great — that’s a useful discussion. But at minimum, this seems to move the conversation from “purely theoretical” to “measurable under ordinary conditions.” YMMV but that's what I got. Cheers,

 

[MaxwellsEq]

>>bump<< Sorry to resurrect this, but I thought this might justify it.

As of late I've been chasing hum (another story) leading to some ASR discussions about whether external power supplies, wall-warts, etc. “matter” for DACs, streamers or anything else. Rather than debate mechanisms in the abstract, I did a simple before/after measurement exercise in my own system and wanted to share the results.

Setup:

• Same room, same mic position
• Same electronics, all turned on, same DAC / streamer / DSP chain
• Measurements taken with REW, identical settings. It's quiet room.
• No DSP, EQ, or filtering differences between runs (but wouldn't matter cause there's nothing playing except any measurable system noise)
• Conditions:
  1. Wall warts on separate circuit feeding a DAC (Modius e), DSP processor (MiniDSP Studio + remote control dongle and 2 ethernet switchs)
  2. Wall warts were then all replaced with a Cioks DC7

Conditions:
1. Stock wall-warts on a separate circuit feeding:

• DAC (Modius E)
• DSP processor
• (MiniDSP SHD Studio + remote dongle)
• Two Ethernet switches

2. All wall-warts replaced with a single Cioks DC7 powering the same devices

Results:
Attached are two plots:

1. Baseline noise floor (original power configuration)

View attachment 505829

2. Noise floor after power changes

View attachment 505830

What’s interesting is not any single spike, but the broadband reduction:

• Several dB lower noise floor from roughly 1kHz up through a 10kHz. This was repeatable.
• Clear reduction in low-frequency hash and mains-related components
• No changes above the system’s inherent noise limit

To be clear, I’m not claiming this proves some audibility improvement, “sound quality,” or that power supplies alter digital bits, blacker blackness, holographic sparkle, etc, etc. What it does show is that:

• Power and grounding choices can measurably change the electrical / acoustic noise environment
• Some wall-wart / shared-circuit configurations are objectively noisier than others
• These effects are can be visible and easily measured without exotic test setups or equipment

If someone wants to argue why this happens (ground impedance, leakage currents, SMPS common-mode noise, etc.), great — that’s a useful discussion. But at minimum, this seems to move the conversation from “purely theoretical” to “measurable under ordinary conditions.” YMMV but that's what I got. Cheers,

Interesting. Does the effect vary by time of day? I'd like to see several graphs of the same tests over several days and hours.

 

[klettermann]

Interesting. Does the effect vary by time of day? I'd like to see several graphs of the same tests over several days and hours.

The extreme low end does. The high end does not. I've got dozens of scans with the wall warts showing all kinds of variations from time of day, whether electronics are on or not, even state of CD player (playing, paused etc). But with the wall warts that high end hill is always there. Need more time to get data on the DC7. As a point of clarity all these measurements were repeated 3x and all were repeatable at the time they were measured. Since I'm not running a noise lab I only kept 1 trace for a given state.

Illustrative are 1.1 - 3.3 below. This is just a convenient screen grab from Win11 file explorer. These are all with warts but varying various other conditions. I was chasing a hum problem so I've got dozens of these over days and all the same basic shape though with variations in hash, spikes, noise from various things. The bottom row is with wall warts replaced by the DC7. Ignore the crazy noisy one on bottom right, that's with HVAC and can't be compared. Interesting too that the operating state of the CD player has a significant impact. It's entirely inaudible but interesting nevertheless. I'm going to have better look at that as well as other sources as well (DAT player and streamer). I'll be getting more data with the DC7 and post in due course. But there's no going back, I won't be getting any more info with the warts. Cheers,

 

[andrewwnbanks]

Nothing personal, but ASR doesn't buy into sonic differences (where none are normally expected) unless there are numbers to back them up. In this case, personal anecdotes are not enough to change the prevailing view that power supplies shouldn't make a difference in the output, unless the streamer was designed wrong in the first place. That's possible, and it would be interesting to see basic measurements demonstrating that.

There are plenty of tests on this site showing no difference in output from cleaning up power going into decent gear, none showing major (read: audible) improvements.

If you take expectation bias seriously, then you must realize it's the more likely explanation for what you heard. Expectation bias isn't something that happens to other people - it's something that happens to people, period.

And that is the problem with this website. Apart from having a clear hang up about higher priced equipment, it forgets that Hifi is about listening and hearing. People listen to music, they don’t get their enjoyment from numbers. Assessing any equipment without listening to it is facile and ignorant

 

[Geertidow]

And that is the problem with this website. Apart from having a clear hang up about higher priced equipment, it forgets that Hifi is about listening and hearing. People listen to music, they don’t get their enjoyment from numbers. Assessing any equipment without listening to it is facile and ignorant

Hifi is about high fidelity music which should be quantifiable. Hence the science in the name of the website.

Enjoying music is subjective.
Buying expensive products to enjoy it more is a personal choice and if you have the money and enjoy it then I have no criticism.

But claiming it is better and especially as a manufacturer requires measurements to show it.

I for one am glad there is a website preventing me to buy poorly designed products.

 

[klettermann]

And that is the problem with this website. Apart from having a clear hang up about higher priced equipment, it forgets that Hifi is about listening and hearing. People listen to music, they don’t get their enjoyment from numbers. Assessing any equipment without listening to it is facile and ignorant

Maybe take a step back. The philosophy and purpose of ASR is utterly inconsistent with bouncing opinions back and forth. There are numerous threads on this subject. Here's on that's still active though the specific topic is DSP. But it could be cables or fancy streamers or anything really. My point is that equipment rolling and optimizing subjective 3rd order effects will generate a dogpile unless first order effects (e.g., room/system interaction effects) are managed, as the effects of the latter are orders of magnitude greater. That's not a bug, it's a feature, even if it can get a bit shrill. At the end of the day I don't walk into a steakhouse and get surprised that I can't order pad thai.

 

[Purité Audio]

And that is the problem with this website. Apart from having a clear hang up about higher priced equipment, it forgets that Hifi is about listening and hearing. People listen to music, they don’t get their enjoyment from numbers. Assessing any equipment without listening to it is facile and ignorant

Personally I enjoy a fine set of measurements, I also don't believe there is any ‘hang up’ about price, I believe the majority of members here cherish fine engineering which is reflected by a units measured performance, and they recognise that for example full-range loudspeakers which are capable of ‘life-like’ SPLs are never going to be cheap.
What we rail against are expensive components which are advertised as having some sonic advantage when they clearly don’t.
Keith

 

[RandomEar]

The extreme low end does. The high end does not. I've got dozens of scans with the wall warts showing all kinds of variations from time of day, whether electronics are on or not, even state of CD player (playing, paused etc). But with the wall warts that high end hill is always there. Need more time to get data on the DC7. As a point of clarity all these measurements were repeated 3x and all were repeatable at the time they were measured. Since I'm not running a noise lab I only kept 1 trace for a given state.

Illustrative are 1.1 - 3.3 below. This is just a convenient screen grab from Win11 file explorer. These are all with warts but varying various other conditions. I was chasing a hum problem so I've got dozens of these over days and all the same basic shape though with variations in hash, spikes, noise from various things. The bottom row is with wall warts replaced by the DC7. Ignore the crazy noisy one on bottom right, that's with HVAC and can't be compared. Interesting too that the operating state of the CD player has a significant impact. It's entirely inaudible but interesting nevertheless. I'm going to have better look at that as well as other sources as well (DAT player and streamer). I'll be getting more data with the DC7 and post in due course. But there's no going back, I won't be getting any more info with the warts. Cheers,

View attachment 505958

Interesting. Did you check where the noise sneaks into the chain? Does it still occur with the DAC disconnected? Or without the miniDSP?

At first glance, this looks like some unlucky interaction of wall warts with at least one of them missing the proper filtering (class X or class Y cap, depending on the grounding scheme).

 

[Sokel]

The extreme low end does. The high end does not. I've got dozens of scans with the wall warts showing all kinds of variations from time of day, whether electronics are on or not, even state of CD player (playing, paused etc). But with the wall warts that high end hill is always there. Need more time to get data on the DC7. As a point of clarity all these measurements were repeated 3x and all were repeatable at the time they were measured. Since I'm not running a noise lab I only kept 1 trace for a given state.

Illustrative are 1.1 - 3.3 below. This is just a convenient screen grab from Win11 file explorer. These are all with warts but varying various other conditions. I was chasing a hum problem so I've got dozens of these over days and all the same basic shape though with variations in hash, spikes, noise from various things. The bottom row is with wall warts replaced by the DC7. Ignore the crazy noisy one on bottom right, that's with HVAC and can't be compared. Interesting too that the operating state of the CD player has a significant impact. It's entirely inaudible but interesting nevertheless. I'm going to have better look at that as well as other sources as well (DAT player and streamer). I'll be getting more data with the DC7 and post in due course. But there's no going back, I won't be getting any more info with the warts. Cheers,

View attachment 505958

The joys of shared el. lines.
Next time try with a led lamp or strip (preferably a cheap one) somewhere in the chain , results can be even worst that the HVAC one.

(about ASR, the trick is to stick at either excellent engineering or audibility, mixing the two of them only belongs to the bin thread )

 

[voodooless]

And that is the problem with this website. Apart from having a clear hang up about higher priced equipment, it forgets that Hifi is about listening and hearing

That's just projection. It's you lot that refuse to listen: ears only, so no peaking and properly level matched.

 

[klettermann]

Interesting. Did you check where the noise sneaks into the chain? Does it still occur with the DAC disconnected? Or without the miniDSP?

At first glance, this looks like some unlucky interaction of wall warts with at least one of them missing the proper filtering (class X or class Y cap, depending on the grounding scheme).

Yeah, very interesting. For sure, one or more of the wall warts was a bad actor. I got started on the whole thing after reading about noisy wall warts so I put a few on a scope and their output really was pretty terrible. I have no idea whether that carried through to that noise somehow making it to the speakers. The intent was to try and test that.

I dropped the project just because there were too many confounding variables. I just ended up removing the wall warts from the picture and replacing them with a single, greatly improved power supply (Ciok DC7). It's really quite a nice solution. Anyway, it turned out that the CD transport operating state makes a difference - stopped vs paused vs playing. So does time of day, HVAC (duh!) and god knows what else.

Despite all that it's worth noting that none of this was actually audible, at least not for me. These spikes are damn narrow. IMO it's an interesting case of clearly measurable noise below the audibility threshold.