Power Amplifiers, phono premamps and other new to this questions... Reign me in

[Mysta]

Hi all feel like I'm in need of an AAs meeting seeking my first token, however that is not why I am here

So what started out as a basic journey of vinyl, amp and speakers..led to the insight of a world I don't technically understand and need to stay in my depth.

I've had a read through some articles and wow...what a fantastic world on paper.

So a few simple questions and thanks to iNetrunner over on reddit.

Speaker wise (UK based) I'm off to audition in time on reviews keep chopping but set on floor sanders for a 3.3m x5. M room fyne Audio 502, Spendor a or d7.2, pro arc dt8, b&w 702s3, Dynaudio 30s or 50s and several others.

Originally looking at amps integrated then power amp seperates.
Realised. I'm going to need room correction, lots of acoustic treatment is not an option.

So I'm after, predominantly vinyl and decided to get my sl1210mkIIs restored for now until I settle into my system. Streaming will be added at some point.

So originally I was looking at the nad. Master. Mk10v3... This then moved to a power amps.

I'm I correct in understanding the v12 trigger is simply switching the power amp on the the preamp is switched on provided both units have the ability via the v12 trigger to communicate with each other?

I am understanding the basic theory with the class D amps over the class As.

Speaker wise I need to demo, a lot have come up on the radar from £1k to circa 5k and I am not going higher

My head is like a pile of spaghetti and keep going round in circles: specs vs practice implementation vs budget vs on paper reviews/perspectives.

If I go power amp the Boxem A4216/E2, Benchmark AHB2 with the latter my current head fav.

This is going ro be a dedicated audio listening setup which does have a LG. 55g4 on the wall above with hdmi and I think optical out need to check.

So my question please.
Working back from speakers to amp.
I will need a phono preamp am I really going to experience a huge difference between ie a topping vs a magic Fidelity 6.
I will then seek streaming and also a conduit from the TV optical or hdmi, 5his will I guess need a. Switching box or similar to select the sources into the amp.
So let's keep this simple
Let's say I have the benchmark amp, back to my situation.
What unit should I ideally be looking at without getting to complicate with the primary focus on the phono stage with the ability to either stream from the TV which is networked to plex, tidal and my own flac and wav collection with a max budget for the pre kit £1.5k give or take a k

Thank you

 

[DVDdoug]

First, vinyl is a (technically) inferior format. There's always noise in the background which can be heard during quiet parts, or between tracks, especially with headphones. And sometimes nasty clicks & pops. And there are frequency response errors/variations (not necessarily terrible) and occasional audible tracking distortion.

Lots of people enjoy vinyl and some people even prefer the sound of vinyl, and to them it's "better" but I grew up with records and the "snap", "crackle" and "pop", always annoyed me even though it was the best thing we had and it didn't seem to bother most people. That's the end of my vinyl rant...

The main thing, by far, is speakers (and enough power go as loud as you want without frying the speakers.)

It's certainly worth auditioning various speakers, especially if you haven't heard many good speakers and if you can't find good independent measurements for the speakers you are considering. (Manufacturer's specs are mostly useless and they rarely even show a frequency response measurement.)

And as you know, the room acoustics make a difference, especially in the bass range where you get standing waves. "Room correction" can help, especially where you have a standing wave anti-node and a resonance that makes a bump in frequency response. Where you have nodes (dips in frequency response where the waves cancel) there's not much you can do because it takes "infinite power" to overcome the cancelation. The good news is that the bumps are more annoying than dips.

And of course, there are limits to how much you can correct for a speaker that has limited bass.... i.e. There's only so-much you can get from a small woofer.

And just general, EQ or tone controls can make a big (or subtle) difference. EQ can be used to correct for frequency response variations ("room correction" is EQ) or to fix-up "bad recordings", or to adjust to your taste if you like a bit more bass, etc. And it can be used for loudness compensation to compensate for the fact that when we turn down the volume it sounds like we've turned-down the bass even more.

Most modern electronics are better than human hearing... Focus on speakers (and/or headphones). Headphones are a "different experience" from speakers but with headphones there is almost no correlation between price and sound quality so you can get excellent sound for a couple hundred dollars (or pounds) .

I'm I correct in understanding the v12 trigger is simply switching the power amp on the the preamp is switched on provided both units have the ability via the v12 trigger to communicate with each other?

Yes, it gives you a master power switch. Turn on (or off) the preamp and the power amp turns-on (or off) too. It's especially convenient if the preamp (or master device) has a remote control.

Originally looking at amps integrated then power amp seperates.

It's hard to beat a receiver. I gave up on separates when I set-up my home theater because an AVR (audio/video receiver) is the most practical and economical way to get surround sound. And by that time I was no longer buying into the idea that separates are "better".

Receivers are mass produced and mass distributed into a competitive market so you get a LOT more for your money, potentially leaving more money for... speakers!

If you want higher power, a separate power amp is the way to go but many AVRs & receivers have preamp outputs so the receiver can serve as your preamp/control center.

I will need a phono preamp.

You don't already have one?

am I really going to experience a huge difference between ie a topping vs a magic Fidelity 6.

Are those phono preamps? No. The cartridge will make a bigger difference. But most of the difference between cartridges is frequency response and that can be tweaked with tone controls/EQ. And some cartridges have better tracking for less tracking distortion on "hard to track" records.

I will then seek streaming and also a conduit from the TV optical or hdmi, 5his will I guess need a. Switching box or similar to select the sources into the amp.

Traditionally, with separates the preamp is the switch box/control center. And some preamps & receivers have digital inputs. All AVRs have digital inputs and they can decode the DVD & Blu-Ray formats that a "regular" stand-alone DAC can't play.

I am understanding the basic theory with the class D amps over the class As.

Class A is dumb! It's (electrically) inefficient and it has the highest cost per-Watt. It's not class-A because it's the best. It's class-A because it was the invented first. And it requires on less tube transistor, or MOSFET, so most old TVs and radios were class-A to save the cost of the extra component. Now, electronics are cheap.

Class A/B is more efficient and the cost per-Watt is lower.

Class-D is a lot more complex but with all of that complexity in a chip it's economical, giving you the most power for the money. And since it's even more efficient than Class A/B it's the most practical way to get hundreds of Watts.

There is some "controversy" about the efficiency of class-D and there was a long thread about it... With "normal listening", the average power (which relates to efficiency and heat) is much lower than the peak power. So most of the energy goes into "running the amplifier", whether it's putting out sound or not. Class A/B might actually consume less power when the amp is idle or at low power, but that's going to depend on the particular amps you're comparing.

So overall, I wouldn't say A/B or D is better and I'd mostly just look at the specs, cost, reputation, appearance, etc., without worrying about what's inside.

My head is like a pile of spaghetti and keep going round in circles: specs vs practice implementation vs budget vs on paper reviews/perspectives.

This is one of the few rational-scientific audio related resources and most "audiophiles" are nuts!!!

Audiophoolery is worth reading. Ethan Winer talks about the few REAL characteristics of sound quality so you won't be mislead when somebody says something meaningless like the sound was more "detailed", or the thousands of other meaningless words "audiophiles" use.

And Amir has a good YouTube video about controlled blind listening tests. Proper listening tests are very rare (and very time consuming) and the video might make you more skeptical of reviews that involve listening impressions and opinions. (Amir doesn't do controlled listening tests as part of his routine reviews but he backs-up his listening impressions/perceptions with associated measurements.)

 

[Mysta]

Yep I get that. Reading reviews online is a thesaurus of the same crap.
I do appreciate the audiofoolery and ASR is a recentish discovery.

I'm starting at the speakers and working back... The amp I just want as clean as I can in my budget hence the ones I'm looking at.

I just want simple good sound.
I'm used to either a set of Adam ax7s Vie a RME FF800 interface or beyerdynamics 880s and recently mentor phone amp and audeze LCD headphones.
... Yep I know I know but there was a warranted reason (long short I beta test music production software for half a dozen companies as a hobby and free software of course, the amp and headphones becan part of the course). My ears are overly sensitive so I just want a nice clean signal path for my money withiut stupid territory, so yes I do have the class ds in sight. I'm just just old skool class A.... I understand the class d process... Almost like evs vs petrol vehicles but let's not digress.

Yes I get the vinyl vs digital debacle.
I have 1500 plus vinyls and to me it's the experience and vibe more over the sound of vinyls, hence the Implementation for streaming.

So speakers I've got a broadlist..

Amps likely will either be the Benchmark, Nord or the boxem but I'm still digging in and reading up.

So I'm trying to deduce and I think reading between the lines I'm not going to notice a lot of diff between a 2k phono preamp and a lesser one integrated with streaming ie the topping or wiim.

I want to get some knowledge and insight to help me decide the hifi shops bullshit and integrity
I'll check the you tube and keep digging through asr and recap through your post as on travels atm. Thanks it is appreciated!

 

[DSJR]

No issues with vinyl being a prime source for you (as long as you realise what vinyl can subtly doing ). The Technics properly sited (use sans lid I'd suggest) should be fine and the AT VMx cartridges should be an excellent match (or maybe an Ortofon Concorde Bronze).

The vinyl product hierarchy is VITAL here though even today, so don't skimp on the pickup. Ken Kessler helped start the SL1200mk2 'thing' off by reviewing the gold version and using an expensive Lyra cartridge to great effect I remember!

Speakers remain a totally subjective thing, but my worn-out lugs now dislike the presence suckouts in most of the B&Ws and PMCs I've heard, not sure of Spendor are competitive these days since the price increases. Dynaudio make warmer toned cheaper models and cold-as-ice dearer ones, so take your pick.

I'd still try to look at the new Harbeths which have livened up successfully over the years (the M30 annihilated here was designed originally for a specific BBC monitoring job but all later versions measured almost if not flat thereafter. Graham Audio look to make some pretty well liked models, but I've no experience of these and not sure of the tones would be too 'ripe' for a vinyl source.

Actually, what about KEF? I'm sure the dealer chains stock and demonstrate them and they all seem to perform well...

As for amps, the market is all over the place. There's some wonderful chip-based amps out there now at very low cost, some more powerful class D amps from basic cases to sooper-deluxe and the Benchmark power amp should see us all out with decades of life left in it I remain hugely fond of Quad (Chinese build my backside ) and the 33/303 performs well by all accounts and the styling is deeply respectful of the original. The Artera preamp and Stereo power amp is maybe a bit too old school for these parts, but they perform great and the venerable '606 family' circuit used in the Artera Stereo is durable domestically and can drive almost anything with well over 200WPC into a four ohm load.

 

[Mysta]

Sorry forgot to add... No I don't just 2 x sl1210mk2s fed into mixer and routed through the RME.... Sorry I missed a few points in the post... No travelling through Poland

Speakers are the starting point.
Working back through to amp preamp etc

I will need a miniDSP or similar as have some room Acoustics but this is a family home so limited with some arrangement, aesthetics and I am blessed with an understanding wife who has given me the go ahead... Bless her

Oh and this "switch box/control center"

Pointers appreciated.

Thank you.

 

[Mysta]

No issues with vinyl being a prime source for you (as long as you realise what vinyl can subtly doing ). The Technics properly sited (use sans lid I'd suggest) should be fine and the AT VMx cartridges should be an excellent match (or maybe an Ortofon Concorde Bronze).

The vinyl product hierarchy is VITAL here though even today, so don't skimp on the pickup. Ken Kessler helped start the SL1200mk2 'thing' off by reviewing the gold version and using an expensive Lyra cartridge to great effect I remember!

Speakers remain a totally subjective thing, but my worn-out lugs now dislike the presence suckouts in most of the B&Ws and PMCs I've heard, not sure of Spendor are competitive these days since the price increases. Dynaudio make warmer toned cheaper models and cold-as-ice dearer ones, so take your pick.

I'd still try to look at the new Harbeths which have livened up successfully over the years (the M30 annihilated here was designed originally for a specific BBC monitoring job but all later versions measured almost if not flat thereafter. Graham Audio look to make some pretty well liked models, but I've no experience of these and not sure of the tones would be too 'ripe' for a vinyl source.

Actually, what about KEF? I'm sure the dealer chains stock and demonstrate them and they all seem to perform well...

As for amps, the market is all over the place. There's some wonderful chip-based amps out there now at very low cost, some more powerful class D amps from basic cases to sooper-deluxe and the Benchmark power amp should see us all out with decades of life left in it I remain hugely fond of Quad (Chinese build my backside ) and the 33/303 performs well by all accounts and the styling is deeply respectful of the original. The Artera preamp and Stereo power amp is maybe a bit too old school for these parts, but they perform great and the venerable '606 family' circuit used in the Artera Stereo is durable domestically and can drive almost anything with well over 200WPC into a four ohm load.

Its funny you mention kefs....
In my head I was set to go out demo the r3 meta or the floor standing equivalents.... With maybe a NAD m10mk3 .
However I've been seeing a lot of reports with issues on the cones. Distortion, buzzing, reliability but I am still going to listen in and see.

 

[Bland_username42069]

you could just use a phone pre amp and a pair of these beauties.

KEF LS60 Wireless (Carbon Black)

Shop for KEF LS60 Wireless (Carbon Black) Wireless System Speakers with Richer Sounds for expert advice and Lowest Prices Guaranteed

www.richersounds.com

 

[Mysta]

you could just use a phone pre amp and a pair of these beauties.

KEF LS60 Wireless (Carbon Black)

Shop for KEF LS60 Wireless (Carbon Black) Wireless System Speakers with Richer Sounds for expert advice and Lowest Prices Guaranteed

www.richersounds.com

How dare you. Insult on so many levels I am genuinely offended....Just in case uk sarcasm and satire is misinterpreted... I am joking!
I saw the retirement article for these....

My retirement system #1 | Darko.Audio

Featuring the KEF LS60 Wireless and 2 x KC62.

darko.audio

Coupled with wireless for audio streaming....
No expensive cables what will I spend the 2k on.
No amp what will I do with the 3.5k for the amp.

Actually they're on the have a look at list just wasn't sure on how they would work with the vinyl...

Just don't tell a soul.... Interesting the spec support not sure if unserstand this.from the spec on their site.

Input resolution
Network up to 24bit/384kHz
Optical up to 24bit/96kHz
Coaxial up to 24bit/192kHz
HDMI up to 24bit/192kHz
*Depends on source resolution
Interspeaker connection
Wireless: all sources resampled to 24bit/96kHz PCM
Wired: all sources resampled to 24bit/192kHz PCM

Doss this mean no matter what is run through theu down sample or in case of vinyl... Shock shock convert to digital playback?
Just an observation. But they are convenient.

 

[Bland_username42069]

How dare you. Insult on so many levels I am genuinely offended....
I saw the retirement article for these....

My retirement system #1 | Darko.Audio

Featuring the KEF LS60 Wireless and 2 x KC62.

darko.audio

Coupled with wireless for audio streaming....
No expensive cables what will I spend the 2k on.
No amp what will I do with the 3.5k for the amp.

Actually they're on the have a look at list just wasn't sure on how they would work with the vinyl...

Just don't tell a soul.... Interesting the spec support not sure if unserstand this.from the spec on their site.

Input resolution
Network up to 24bit/384kHz
Optical up to 24bit/96kHz
Coaxial up to 24bit/192kHz
HDMI up to 24bit/192kHz
*Depends on source resolution
Interspeaker connection
Wireless: all sources resampled to 24bit/96kHz PCM
Wired: all sources resampled to 24bit/192kHz PCM

Doss this mean no matter what is run through theu down sample or in case of vinyl... Shock shock convert to digital playback?
Just an observation. But they are convenient.

Yes it will digitise the signal You could just use this as a phono stage and send it via optical to the speaker input.

'MINIDSP Adept ADC & Phono Preamp Review'

Aug 26, 2025

This is a review and detailed measurements of the MINIDSP Adept analog to digital converter and phono equalization/capture. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $299.

The device is rather attractive for its class. User interface though, is unusual. You push the rotary encoder in and then it selects the first option. You keep rotating it and it will then cycle through all the elements you see in the interface. So to change something, you have to cycle through all until you get to option you want to select. It works but did take some effort to figure out how to use...

• amirm
• Replies: 223
• Forum: Audio Interfaces (ADC & DAC)

• 

Or you could get a pair of Neumann or Genelac active speakers and a streaming preamp like a wiim ultra.

There’s many ways you can do this.

 

[Mysta]

Yeah I'm trying to be a puriton within my limits and means coupled with convenience....
Which is like trying to balance a gold leaf with some autumn leaves... Best I could think off haha.

But yes I think I may look at a simple junction for a phono stage and streamer or simply fookit and go all in one

Still exploring, digging, understanding and resisting the dark side haha...

 

[Mysta]

Slept on it... Why am I not comfortable in the analogue to digital realm conversion to output... Seems odd, even on the streaming converting ur tidal hi red and output halved.... Also as a side nite any home production music would need to be dithered maybe as listen to raw wab files as well as vinyl and streaming.

 

[Mysta]

OK not going down this route for many reasons not keen on the vigital conversion, not overly sold on KEF... Reliability, namesake and origin... But like I've said I will still audition

 

[LTig]

OK not going down this route for many reasons not keen on the vigital conversion,

You will need room EQ which is always done via DSP, which means all analog sources need to be digitized

This is no problem however, since a decent AD/DA conversion is audibly transparent. I use room EQ with my Linn LP12/Lingo/Ekos/AT33PTGII/Cambridge Audio Duo analog chain and it sounds perfect to me.

not overly sold on KEF... Reliability, namesake and origin...

If in doubt go for professional monitors by Neumann or Genelec, with a Wiim Ultra or a Waxwing as preamp.

 

[Mysta]

You will need room EQ which is always done via DSP, which means all analog sources need to be digitized

This is no problem however, since a decent AD/DA conversion is audibly transparent. I use room EQ with my Linn LP12/Lingo/Ekos/AT33PTGII/Cambridge Audio Duo analog chain and it sounds perfect to me.

If in doubt go for professional monitors by Neumann or Genelec, with a Wiim Ultra or a Waxwing as preamp.

Hmm not clicked that you are of course correct... Removes frying pan from face
More down to the rate conversion.
I don't want to focus on this too much but why pay for high rate tidal etc when the end game reduces it, seems pointless to me.

Moreover, the room correction conversion is something I had definately not considered so yes will review my thoughts here. Thank you.

 

[LTig]

More down to the rate conversion.
I don't want to focus on this too much but why pay for high rate tidal etc when the end game reduces it, seems pointless to me.

More resolution than Red Book standard (44/16) in the playback chain is pointless in the first place, as nobody hears a difference to higher resolution in a level matched blind test (using the same master, of course).

For room EQ it makes sense to use 48/24 as more bits are available. This is however the standard for DSP in active speakers anyway, as far as I know.

 

[LTig]

Can I ask why you preferred the 33 over the ie rega anna mc... Not that I'm anywhere near your ballpark re turntable setup just curious.

It was a cheap (at 1/3rd of the price) replacement for my broken and old Van den Hul MC ONE Special. It was recommended here when I asked for help. I wanted a low output MC pickup with a line needle cut and I'm very happy with it.

Edit: the pickup must match the arm (to get a resonance close to 10 Hz), which the 33 does. I don't know whether the Reagan Ania would match as it's specification is lacking in this respect. And it's more expensive.

 

[respice finem]

Speaking of cheap (and at least for me, more than good enough) - the "improved" AT turntable (see signature below). Direct drive "Technics clone", ca 8 kg weight, good MM pickup and elliptic needle. Output USB or analog, both RIAA corrected already. I can't complain, really. 323 $ (in Poland).
Even a bluetooth enabled version is available. The only caveat: the older version (without the "X") had a few "sins", like non-functional antiskating. Thie improved "X" is very good IMHO.

AT-LP120XUSB

Laden Sie sich die kostenlose Mac- und PC-kompatible Audacity-Recording-Software (oder eine Software Ihrer Wahl) herunter und beginnen Sie mit der Konvertierung Ihrer LPs und Singles in digitale D ...

www.audio-technica.com

 

[Bland_username42069]

OK not going down this route for many reasons not keen on the vigital conversion, not overly sold on KEF... Reliability, namesake and origin... But like I've said I will still audition

You can’t do room correction without digitising the vinyl source.

It’s completely transparent

 

[Mysta]

Let's assume I'm getting a boxam 4612 power amp.
Speakers to be determined.
Phono/turntable at a later stage probably hook up the sl1210mk2s for now.
Which room correction should I be considering please?
Thanks.

 

[LTig]

Let's assume I'm getting a boxam 4612 power amp.
Speakers to be determined.

Speakers must come before the power amp, as the power amp must fulfill the needs of the speakers. Only exception are active speakers (built-in amplification).