Power amplifier tests with respect to FTC: 16 CFR Part 432 (July 5, 2024) requirements on output power claims

[Old_School_Brad]

If FTC rules are actually enforced, wouldn't it be impossible to import such an amp with false claims?

The FTC can block imports of devices that don't meet U.S. standards. Usually, it starts with warnings or fines before imposing an import ban, similar to how enforcement works in the EU.

It's important to remember that amplifiers sold in the EU don't have to follow FTC rules, which are specific to the U.S. However, manufacturers may choose to comply with both to ensure consistency in the international markets though. Personally, I think FTC rules are more effective than those set by IEC or DIN standards.

 

[pma]

Yes, IEC standards for amplifiers rather stay in the paper. I tried to suggest testing according to IEC here, of course with a zero effect

(Suggestion on) Testing power amplifiers according to IEC 60268-3 standard

(Suggestion on) Testing power amplifiers according to IEC 60268-3 standard I would like to start the debate on ASR power amplifier testing and suggest some degree of conformance with current standards. --------------------------------------------------- The part 3 of IEC 60268 applies to...

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The standard brings highly valuable test methods, that are of course ignored. Customers are then struck by surprise if their amp fails.

Especially overload recovery time should be tested

(Suggestion on) Testing power amplifiers according to IEC 60268-3 standard

Back when I was more involved in the audio world a number of manufacturers performed very extensive internal testing and produced large characterization reports. Those almost never went "outside"; they were considered proprietary, and most consumers would not understand them. The...

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[KSTR]

That will not really help, as the protection circuits kicks in anyway and limits the output power. Believe me, I've tried with a cold module. We enter shutdown after milliseconds if the output power goes above ~700W.

Exactly as stated in the datasheet.
ICEpower's datasheets are really as good and extensive as gets.

Further, European line power outlets are rated 230V/16A max which gives 3.7kW so it's very clear from the beginning that you can't pull 4kW (2x2kW) speaker output power. The AC input connector on the module (JST VH series) is rated 10A only so we're down already to 2.3kW theoretical max continuous power, with zero losses assumed in the supply and the amps. With losses but still assuming theoretical perfect heat management, one might expect 2x800W best case. In the real world we're down to maybe 2x400W...2x500W continuous best-case and 2x135W worst-case (under the conditions given in the datasheet).

 

[pma]

So many domestic appliances here working at 3 x 400V/25A three phase.

 

[JustJones]

Here's a typical AVR rating. North America is FTC and EU/ Australia- Asia IEC.
I assume if the FTC actually starts enforcement of this then some amps tested here would need to lower their ratings/ not mention power rating/ make monoblocks and report whatever since this only applies to amps with 2 or more channels. Perhaps there's a different regulation for monoblocks.

 

[TunaBug]

If FTC rules are actually enforced, wouldn't it be impossible to import such an amp with false claims?

IANAL, but I think the problem would be at resale.

If I (in the US) want to mail order an amp from outside the US, and the amp is for my use (I'm the consumer) and it doesn't meet specs then I don't think that's a problem. I hope it's not. It seems stupid to me to think that a foreign company would be subject to another nation's laws just because somebody wants to carry their product across the border.

If on the other hand I import them to the US to resell to consumers then that is the problem. And I suspect that I would be in violation, not the out-of-US manufacturer.

 

[antcollinet]

In my "torture test" with 50 seconds of a real signal* (aka the "Interstellar black hole"), the ICEpower 1200AS/2 could deliver about 2x300W before thermal shutdown.

How are you measuring the power output with a signal like that? Because the power is continuously changing.

 

[TunaBug]

I am wondering if any of us start our own company which produces amps with the specs of Topping B100. Would you market it as a 10W amp with 10dB headroom or a 100W amp? Honest answers please

10W continuous w/ 10dB headroom. Or better 10W continuous with 100W peaks, or headroom to 100W, or something like that. In other words, assume the consumer doesn't understand "dB".

I'm a fan of the FTC's effort to get a common definition for continuous. But I would hate for it to come at the cost of removing peak numbers. Better, of course, would be some agreement on how those peaks are measured, but barring that, tell me how you defined your terms.

 

[Old_School_Brad]

IANAL, but I think the problem would be at resale.

If I (in the US) want to mail order an amp from outside the US, and the amp is for my use (I'm the consumer) and it doesn't meet specs then I don't think that's a problem. I hope it's not. It seems stupid to me to think that a foreign company would be subject to another nation's laws just because somebody wants to carry their product across the border.

If on the other hand I import them to the US to resell to consumers then that is the problem. And I suspect that I would be in violation, not the out-of-US manufacturer.

My understanding is that if the manufacturer operates a webshop that ships to the U.S. and displays pricing in USD, or targets U.S. customers through their advertising, then FTC rules apply.

 

[Old_School_Brad]

10W continuous w/ 10dB headroom. Or better 10W continuous with 100W peaks, or headroom to 100W, or something like that. In other words, assume the consumer doesn't understand "dB".

I'm a fan of the FTC's effort to get a common definition for continuous. But I would hate for it to come at the cost of removing peak numbers. Better, of course, would be some agreement on how those peaks are measured, but barring that, tell me how you defined your terms.

It does not mean that they cannot disclose peak ratings; rather, ratings from other testing methods should simply not take precedence over the FTC ratings.

 

[StigErik]

How are you measuring the power output with a signal like that? Because the power is continuously changing.

Its based on the RMS value calculated by my DAW.

 

[antcollinet]

Its based on the RMS value calculated by my DAW.

Presumably that is an RMS voltage calculation - if so then the problem I see is that as the amp starts to hit limits - the dissipation will increase significantly as the output clips. And that is assuming you're using a resistive test load.

 

[StigErik]

Presumably that is an RMS voltage calculation - if so then the problem I see is that as the amp starts to hit limits - the dissipation will increase significantly as the output clips. And that is assuming you're using a resistive test load.

The outputs were never close to clipping at any point during my power tests. Current limiting set in long before the amp could voltage clip.

All my tests used resistive load.

 

[KSTR]

I suggest using the voltage and current monitor outputs the module provides, a very comfortable and professional feature.

 

[TunaBug]

It does not mean that they cannot disclose peak ratings; rather, ratings from other testing methods should simply not take precedence over the FTC ratings.

Of course, it's what I have been saying, and asking for. I apologize if I have stated that in an unclear way.

 

[TunaBug]

My understanding is that if the manufacturer operates a webshop that ships to the U.S. and displays pricing in USD, or targets U.S. customers through their advertising, then FTC rules apply.

I'm curious how that would work at an enforcement level. If nobody with skin in the game is reachable by whatever authority is making the laws then, in that case, does the law have any value? I would think your situation ends up being the proverbial tree falling in the forest that makes no sound.

Or let me state that another way: I expect what you describe to be an easy out for some companies, and that is certainly a way in which those companies have an advantage.

 

[Sokel]

We talk as if it's the end of the world for some companies.It's not.
They can sell whatever they want,wherever they want.They can also state gazillion of watts at whatever condition they see fit.
That's all.

The only addition will be this goddamned FTC value if they want their reps in US to be ok and if they want to participate in a fair game.

And another.It's been too long that inflated numbers did a terrible service badly educating people.We see them holding an amp with one hand and say "I push 200W at these 2-coilers subs" with attitude.Nope.My dear friend you don't.
Chances are you push 50W continuous tops with some 100W spikes when the amp see fit,or else you're at constant clipping.

 

[RickS]

Are you asleep at the wheel? Seriously?

Frankly, he is not. Not sure about Australia, but would be shocked if there was any enforcement and, given the inclinations of the incoming administration, even less likely for the next 4 years or more.

While not against the principle of a standard, getting compliance is another matter. Without enforcement, all you get is some companies that conform trying to compete against those who will make superior claims without conformance.

 

[Sokel]

Frankly, he is not. Not sure about Australia, but would be shocked if there was any enforcement and, given the inclinations of the incoming administration, even less likely for the next 4 years or more.

While not against the principle of a standard, getting compliance is another matter. Without enforcement, all you get is some companies that conform trying to compete against those who will make superior claims without conformance.

I think that was about Amir's impression that the law is old while is a brand new one (effective by the 12th of this month I think)

 

[RickS]

I think that was about Amir's impression that the law is old while is a brand new one (effective by the 12th of this month I think)

In any case, does not matter how new or old the law is. The compliance challenges are the same.