Post research here that casts doubt on ASR objectivism

[Deleted member 31910]

what is it?

Speakers: Yamaha NS-1000 + YST-SW1000, JBL L7, L5, L80t, 4301b, Pioneer Elite TZ-7
Preamps: Yamaha C-80,
Amps: Sony TA-N77ES, Yamaha M-80, M-4, P2700, Sansui B-2101
DACs: Denafrips Ares II, Topping D50
Transport: Sony DVP-S9000es

 

[USER]

I understand what you and others on this forum are saying and I don't intentionally disrespect the body of audio science that exists or the hard work that many have done to achieve what we know today. I think my questions are more philosophical as I have a limited understanding of audio science. I do plan to try and get measurements of my room using a mic/software.

I'm not sure that I could "have way better sound" at no cost or major savings, perhaps you are right though.

I certainly do not believe that I know more than anybody else on this forum. I wouldn't be asking the questions I was asking if I thought I knew more -- I was trying to ask questions as a way of learning. I do still have questions about the placebo effect and the power of belief and other existential questions as it relates to audio; however, it sounds like my questions are no longer welcome so I am happy to lay low as you put it.

Sorry, I can't help myself. One quick response and I am out.

If you want to talk about Kantian transcendentalism, Cavellian Skepticism, or even general epistemology, I am sure there are many here that can school you on that too. But as you have done nothing to show that you have even a modicum of understanding about what you are talking about, that seems like a miserable proposition.

 

[Raindog123]

Well, we’ve agreed to “no car analogies”, so I’l use an airplane one. All this @mistermuddles ‘s ‘people believe!‘ and ‘but we do not know everything!‘ crap is like some dude would come to me and say “But, but I believe a bicycle wheel would make a great landing gear for a jet! I REALlY believe it! And as we can’t know everything, through tests or measurements - let’s just cross our fingers, strap bike wheels to, and start landing jumbo jets on them!”

It is the same stupidity and irresponsibility as @mistermuddles advocates with audio gear. With the only difference is that people would die. So there are regulations and bodies like FAA, IATA, ICAO to enforce common sense. And to assure right calculations, measurements and tests-upon-tests are conducted. And to keep those ‘finger crossing believers’ nowhere near aircraft design. Yes, we do not know everything, so conduct research and development to learn and to improve things. But we do not dismiss or neglect what we‘ve learned and/or know based on that!

 

[JustJones]

I'm not sure we really know what reality is.

You can test this by standing on some train tracks and when you hear the horn blowing on a locomotive you'll face an existential crisis between the power of belief you don't know what reality is and objective reality in the form of iron and steel rolling towards you at 70mph. I hope you figure it out in time.

 

[Inner Space]

Well, we’ve agreed to “no car analogies”, so I’l use an airplane one.

Maybe that should always be our first question: would you fly on a plane designed by an audiophile?

 

[Mountain Goat]

I understand what you and others on this forum are saying and I don't intentionally disrespect the body of audio science that exists or the hard work that many have done to achieve what we know today. I think my questions are more philosophical as I have a limited understanding of audio science. I do plan to try and get measurements of my room using a mic/software.

I'm not sure that I could "have way better sound" at no cost or major savings, perhaps you are right though.

I certainly do not believe that I know more than anybody else on this forum. I wouldn't be asking the questions I was asking if I thought I knew more -- I was trying to ask questions as a way of learning. I do still have questions about the placebo effect and the power of belief and other existential questions as it relates to audio; however, it sounds like my questions are no longer welcome so I am happy to lay low as you put it.

Sounds like you're coming around. EQing your room will give you better sound with little cost.

Cheers.

 

[SubOjectivist]

Well, you are right. I mean, I don't discount measurements.. I understand much of the modern would is developed and engineered based on measurements. I'm speaking more directly in terms of what we hear in our rooms, listening to music on our systems that we've built over the years. I enjoy my system quite a bit and I've never considered or studied the measurements of any of it. That doesn't mean measurements don't exist or they aren't playing a large part in what I am hearing. But I have compared two devices under normal listening conditions that sound audibly different to my ears.

I didn't mean to suggest that measurements don't matter at all, sure of course they do. I am talking about when we get to that certain level of performance where people believe that no audible differences can be heard. If some people believe that they can hear differences that measurements and scientific tools deny, I don't see how believing or denying is better or worse.. especially if believing can potentially raise your ceiling for enjoyment in the hobby.

You don't really seem like a troll, but you're somewhat stubborn.
If the said people believe they can hear a difference, well, then they could prove they really do, right? Otherwise, why would I take a stranger's word for it?
Randomly play a song on each equipment in double blind test. Not just once, because the person could be on a lucky day. Do it like 20 times in a row, and let the results speak for themselves. Easy peasy. You will then find out if they just wrongly believed the sound was different or if they actually heard a difference.
Believing can be positive, sure (and that's not sarcastic). It's just called the placebo effect. RCTs (Randomized controlled trial) exist for a reason.

 

[Leporello]

Part of my point is that we don't fully understand how placebo works, and there are plenty of studies regarding sham surgery where there are lasting effects even after it has been revealed. We simply do not fully understand how the mind works and how it shapes what we perceive as reality. I simply think its unfair to judge people with absolute certainty as "audiophools" when we don't have all the answers.

Yet another appeal to unknown possibilities. We will never have all the anwers.

 

[Leporello]

Personally, I think for someone who is not a scientist/engineer/etc. buying into something they don't really understand requires belief.

Yes. But some beliefs are better informed and supported than others. The speed of light is appr. 300 000 km per hour I personally do not understand how it is measured. Yet it can be reasonably said that I know what the speed of light is.

Edit: should be per second

 

[Raindog123]

The speed of light is appr. 300 000 km per hour

This is so not true (more like 1,000,000,000 km/hr).

 

[Wes]

Speakers: Yamaha NS-1000 + YST-SW1000, JBL L7, L5, L80t, 4301b, Pioneer Elite TZ-7
Preamps: Yamaha C-80,
Amps: Sony TA-N77ES, Yamaha M-80, M-4, P2700, Sansui B-2101
DACs: Denafrips Ares II, Topping D50
Transport: Sony DVP-S9000es

sell the Denafrips and use those $$ to buy better speakers

 

[Deleted member 31910]

sell the Denafrips and use those $$ to buy better speakers

I just bought the Denafrips and I quite enjoy it -- it's one of the best purchases I have made recently. I am interested though, what speakers should I buy that would perform better than the Yamaha NS-1000 or JBL L7 for $800?

 

[Wes]

try Revel and not for $800

 

[Jimbob54]

The book of trolls is long and boring
No one can lift the damn thing
It's full of charts and facts and figures
And instructions for listening

The book of trolls has no knowledge in it
In fact that's where knowledge goes to die
Some of it is just transcendental
Most of it is just really dumb

Didn't have you down as a magnetic fields fan.

 

[Deleted member 31910]

try Revel and not for $800

The most money I have ever paid for any audio product was my Schiit Freya+ which I returned because I thought it sounded worse than my $100 Yamaha C-80. I paid $200 for my NS-1000 and $700 for my JBL L7. I purchased the Freya+ in part because of reviews and feedback from this forum . Now you are suggesting Revel? A speaker that costs thousands if not tens of thousands? Interesting.

 

[Deleted member 31910]

Didn't have you down as a magnetic fields fan.

Magnetic Fields are one of my favorite music groups. Love Stephin Merritt and Claudia Gonson.

 

[Jimbob54]

The most money I have ever paid for any audio product was my Schiit Freya+ which I returned because I thought it sounded worse than my $100 Yamaha C-80. I paid $200 for my NS-1000 and $700 for my JBL L7. I purchased the Freya+ in part because of reviews and feedback from this forum . Now you are suggesting Revel? A speaker that costs thousands if not tens of thousands? Interesting.

The Freya + hasn't been reviewed here, has it? The Freya S has (twice).

 

[Deleted member 31910]

The Freya + hasn't been reviewed here, has it? The Freya S has (twice).

Maybe not the + but I think there is quite a few posts about it here, I have commented in some of them. The passive and jfet modes should be pretty similar between the two I would imagine, right?

I did read through most of the Freya S thread, I guess I just assumed they would be similar in the passive and jfet modes.

 

[Jimbob54]

Maybe not the + but I think there is quite a few posts about it here, I have commented in some of them. The passive and jfet modes should be pretty similar between the two I would imagine, right?

I did read through most of the Freya S thread, I guess I just assumed they would be similar in the passive and jfet modes.

They may well.be similar, I don't know because I've not seen measurements of the +

 

[danadam]

The speed of light is appr. 300 000 km per hour

hour second