Post-DIRAC Live ART Calibration - Lack of Bass

[kawauso]

Sure phase alignment can make an audible difference if it would otherwise cause frequency response issues (dips, etc). But if you don't have those issues, you wouldn't hear a difference.

Contrary to some opinions (maybe due to believing in marketing) Dirac bass does not sound better than Audyssey bass when all else is equal. ART may be different, but whether it's better will depend on you. Audyssey doesn't do something similar to make a comparison.

There is no such thing as a perfect room. Even when looking only at frequency response,
ART reduces dips and minimizes frequency variation between seats. In other words,
this is not a matter of personal preference; there is a clear superiority between ART and non-ART.

 

[Chromatischism]

There is no such thing as a perfect room. Even when looking only at frequency response,
ART reduces dips and minimizes frequency variation between seats. In other words,
this is not a matter of personal preference; there is a clear superiority between ART and non-ART.

Bass Control and ART certainly help attain a better seat to seat consistency, at the expense of an optimized single seat. But they cannot magically fix a room's sub bass issues without adding more subwoofers, which can also be optimized in Audyssey MultEQ-X or Multi-Sub Optimizer. ART can help bridge the gap from the subs up to around 150 Hz and is a nice advancement but this starts to get more seat-dependant as the frequency increases.

 

[Oddball]

Bass Control and ART certainly help attain a better seat to seat consistency, at the expense of an optimized single seat. But they cannot magically fix a room's sub bass issues without adding more subwoofers, which can also be optimized in Audyssey MultEQ-X or Multi-Sub Optimizer. ART can help bridge the gap from the subs up to around 150 Hz and is a nice advancement but this starts to get more seat-dependant as the frequency increases.

Where do you get this stuff from?

You obviously don't have any idea of what ART is and yet you keep posting your doubts. But then how could you even know if you have not tried or carefully looked into all the graphs that could help you.

More than happy to engage if you need help, but let's pinpoint the discussion as what you are doing now is kind of bashing.

 

[kawauso]

Bass Control and ART certainly help attain a better seat to seat consistency, at the expense of an optimized single seat. But they cannot magically fix a room's sub bass issues without adding more subwoofers, which can also be optimized in Audyssey MultEQ-X or Multi-Sub Optimizer. ART can help bridge the gap from the subs up to around 150 Hz and is a nice advancement but this starts to get more seat-dependant as the frequency increases.

Leaving aside whether improvements at a single or just a few microphone positions are meaningful, even at a single MLP, Audyssey MultEQ-X or Multi-Sub Optimizer do not reach the level of ART. Also, ART works sufficiently well even without subwoofers. The frequencies that tend to vary the most across seats, become nonlinear, and draw the most attention are primarily in the low range. ART can improve performance up to around 200 Hz. Above that frequency range, issues are generally not very noticeable to begin with.

 

[Miniyouuuu]

the better way to probe that is showing results from audissey and Dirac Art in the same spot with the same gear. No only frequency response graphs but waterfall, decay, step response, filtered ir, phase… comparing both softwares.

 

[dlaloum]

ART will not sound like Audy - thanks god for that. Impactful is a complex word. In Audy that is more like distorded.

We do have a consensus as far as ART bass levels are concerned. Turn it up to to +12dB. That's max. If not up to your taste than I guess other solutions might work better.

If you use the manual target curve rather than the shelves/handles, you can opt to lower the 1khz range to -10db, and raising the bass to the +12db maximum would then result in a 22db rise from the midrange reference to bass boost peak (obviously you have to adjust the mids and high end accordingly).

For those seeking to "pressurise" their room more heavily - as their room was previously pressurised by the decay energy which has now been removed from the room - it is worthy of note that your subs and woofers will have to work harder, as their total power output was previously being boosted "in room" by the reflections/decay, which in a drywall, light construction building would be relatively minor... but in a heavy construction brick/concrete building, could be huge - potentially doubling the output or more! - so the woofers may needs to work a lot harder to make up for it!

So for those seeking that sort of pressurisation, if their existing woofers aren't capable of the requisite SPL's without the boost generated by reflections/decay - then you have to walk the devils tightrope... do you accept the distortion and associated loss in clarity, caused by the reflections/decay to gain room pressurisation? - or do you opt for clarity, and sacrifice the pressurisation? (or do you open your wallet to purchase subs / speakers capable of substantially higher SPL's to compensate...)

Note: I am NOT a bass head - my target curve is +0db bass (ie flat, no rise!) and -3db highs - however i am finding that since I set ART up, there a distinct "meatiness" / weight to the bass, that was previously lacking, while at the same time providing that critical sought after clarity...
Removing the decay from the system has a subtle effect, which you subjectively notice over time as you listen to favourite recordings... lovely!

 

[dlaloum]

I might have used a wrong word - better one would be less fidelity, at least in my system that is not simple. Much better phase alignment overall, less decay and better FQ response with ART.

As to distortion, you could get to that if you push Audy system too far. Either with running big speakers as full range or feeding them LFE via LFE distribution. Audy was doing exactly what it was told but as bass content in soundtracks varies it was getting out of hand at times so the speakers would start to distort. Especially audible with port chuffing, less so with sealed but still noticeable if you know the speakers well. Obviously you could dial back and not experience these issues. With ART this really does not happen as works completely differently.

I noted that at the port chuffing frequency of my full range surround speakers (B&O Penta, 35Hz) - there was a substantial rise in THD - and also a rise in decay time when using ART - I am assuming that the distortion is limiting ART's ability to cancel out decay - once I limited the support range contribution of those speakers to above 40Hz, things cleaned up noticeably in the waterfall chart.

So we should keep an eye on distortion levels - at the moment I am thinking that the limit of THD should be 1.5% - wherever the speaker at measurement/reference level had THD rising above 1.5% that is where the lower support limit should be set.

Note: this is not responding to quite the same issues as your posting was in response to - just want to point out that we do need to measure THD when we try to optimise the setup - and that this is very likely to be an issue with ported speakers, and less so with true sealed designs.... (I don't know enough about the behaviour of ported designs with the ports "plugged" as they are not true sealed speakers - but the REW distortion measurements should tell their own stories!)

 

[dlaloum]

Bass Control and ART certainly help attain a better seat to seat consistency, at the expense of an optimized single seat. But they cannot magically fix a room's sub bass issues without adding more subwoofers, which can also be optimized in Audyssey MultEQ-X or Multi-Sub Optimizer. ART can help bridge the gap from the subs up to around 150 Hz and is a nice advancement but this starts to get more seat-dependant as the frequency increases.

With full range base layer speakers contributing to most of the ART frequency range, you effectively have another 4 or 6 (or 7) woofers in differing room locations - effectively in old world bass management terms where the speakers are cut off at 80Hz and everything below 80Hz is transferred to subs, such a base layer provide 4,6,or 7 subs as a starting point in different locations around the room - and even if every one of them is in a less than ideal location, that proliferation of sources leads to a more even bass response throughout the room... when you then add in the subs as well - you are now looking at a 6,8,9 sub result from a 2 sub system...

But if your base layer is more constrained (more of a satelite speaker based system) - then these advantages will be much less apparent.

 

[dlaloum]

Leaving aside whether improvements at a single or just a few microphone positions are meaningful, even at a single MLP, Audyssey MultEQ-X or Multi-Sub Optimizer do not reach the level of ART. Also, ART works sufficiently well even without subwoofers. The frequencies that tend to vary the most across seats, become nonlinear, and draw the most attention are primarily in the low range. ART can improve performance up to around 200 Hz. Above that frequency range, issues are generally not very noticeable to begin with.

And yet the first thing I noticed with Dirac Live (non ART) was not improvements in the bass, but improvements in midrange clarity, imaging, and dialogue/vocals! (using DL full range) As a result I never tried to use it exclusively in the lower frequencies...

 

[Chromatischism]

Where do you get this stuff from?

Where do you get these responses from? Please feel free to call out what was incorrect. My guess is you can't because I didn't say anything controversial, except to maybe you.

 

[Chromatischism]

With full range base layer speakers contributing to most of the ART frequency range, you effectively have another 4 or 6 (or 7) woofers in differing room locations - effectively in old world bass management terms where the speakers are cut off at 80Hz and everything below 80Hz is transferred to subs, such a base layer provide 4,6,or 7 subs as a starting point in different locations around the room - and even if every one of them is in a less than ideal location, that proliferation of sources leads to a more even bass response throughout the room... when you then add in the subs as well - you are now looking at a 6,8,9 sub result from a 2 sub system...

If you are using truly full-range speakers, you are saying the same thing I did--you have multiple subwoofers in operation.

 

[AudioJester]

If you are using truly full-range speakers, you are saying the same thing I did--you have multiple subwoofers in operation.

Maybe read up how ART works, its not the same as multiple subwoofers.

 

[dlaloum]

Maybe read up how ART works, its not the same as multiple subwoofers.

Although with ART managing the bass, each full range speaker in the setup (full range being any speaker with response below 60Hz), effectively becomes and additional sub!

 

[dlaloum]

Here is my initial ART measurement - 5.1.4, with 4 full range speakers and 1 sub - using Dirac Default support groups and levels:

Same system, with the addition of a 2nd sub (same as 1st) but with the support groups adjusted/tweaked - and heights removed from any support duties

from 40 Hz up I have 4 base layer speakers as well as 2 subs working - and the results are exemplary.
I have two base layer speakers that cease support at 40Hz, and the rest of the speakers are theoretically capable of 24Hz - but the messiness in the decay between 35Hz and 20Hz tells me that I am probably asking too much of them, and driving them into their distortion zone, where their ability to contribute to ART becomes limited by the THD... more experimentation to come... however - this is now showing a very very good result in my room, and my subjective results are that my system is sounding better than it ever has before - and definitely is NOT lacking in bass.

Objectively - there is no lack of bass.

Subjectively - all the decay has been removed from the room - demonstrably so in the above graphs! - and we hear the removal of bass energy.

Having said that, the energy that was removed is a form of distortion, and was obfuscating the detail of the sound.

So you can compensate by increasing the SPL's of the primary signal (which may require speaker/sub update/replacement) - or you can opt to accept that your preference is to have some distortion present as you find it euphonic.... which may result in such people opting for DLBC over DLART, much like many choose valves over transistor amps in a search for euphonic distortion.

The other thing to note - ART's bass management means that any/all bass capable speakers - including full range mains - will contribute - whereas DLBC cuts full rangers off at the knees - and only uses sub's for bass. (sacrificing a variable amount of bass in the process...).

It will be interesting to see whether ART configurations with lower support levels can be used to provide a "wet" configuration (ie: with remaining decay energy) as opposed to the Dirac default of a "dry" configuration - examplified by my current setup, and which I am very happy with!

 

[janbth]

Here is my initial ART measurement - 5.1.4, with 4 full range speakers and 1 sub - using Dirac Default support groups and levels:

View attachment 500033

Same system, with the addition of a 2nd sub (same as 1st) but with the support groups adjusted/tweaked - and heights removed from any support duties

View attachment 500037

from 40 Hz up I have 4 base layer speakers as well as 2 subs working - and the results are exemplary.
I have two base layer speakers that cease support at 40Hz, and the rest of the speakers are theoretically capable of 24Hz - but the messiness in the decay between 35Hz and 20Hz tells me that I am probably asking too much of them, and driving them into their distortion zone, where their ability to contribute to ART becomes limited by the THD... more experimentation to come... however - this is now showing a very very good result in my room, and my subjective results are that my system is sounding better than it ever has before - and definitely is NOT lacking in bass.

Objectively - there is no lack of bass.

Subjectively - all the decay has been removed from the room - demonstrably so in the above graphs! - and we hear the removal of bass energy.

Having said that, the energy that was removed is a form of distortion, and was obfuscating the detail of the sound.

So you can compensate by increasing the SPL's of the primary signal (which may require speaker/sub update/replacement) - or you can opt to accept that your preference is to have some distortion present as you find it euphonic.... which may result in such people opting for DLBC over DLART, much like many choose valves over transistor amps in a search for euphonic distortion.

The other thing to note - ART's bass management means that any/all bass capable speakers - including full range mains - will contribute - whereas DLBC cuts full rangers off at the knees - and only uses sub's for bass. (sacrificing a variable amount of bass in the process...).

It will be interesting to see whether ART configurations with lower support levels can be used to provide a "wet" configuration (ie: with remaining decay energy) as opposed to the Dirac default of a "dry" configuration - examplified by my current setup, and which I am very happy with!

This is impressive, but I’d like to see L+R, which is more representative of the music or sounds we normally play on our systems. Preferably up to 200 Hz. It would be interesting to see if the two channels avoid interfering with each other.

 

[Frank207be]

All of us with Denon and Marantz gear can easily compare Audy and Dirac ART.
For me its not even close, everything else being equal - in my untreated, accoustically terrible multipurpose room. Look at all the measurements people have posted with ART, Audy can never achieve that.

I've just overwritten my preset1 which was reserved for MultEQ-X as I see no more use for it. For now I have Dirac, BM and BC stored on the 3 banks but in a later stage I'll use preset 1 for my front row and ART.

 

[peng]

All of us with Denon and Marantz gear can easily compare Audy and Dirac ART.
For me its not even close, everything else being equal - in my untreated, accoustically terrible multipurpose room. Look at all the measurements people have posted with ART, Audy can never achieve that.

I would agree that there isn't much point trying to even compare Audy and D ART, simply because Audy does not have anything that could do what D ART does. I guess people who tried such comparisons were just doing it for fun, or out of curiosity.

 

[dlaloum]

This is impressive, but I’d like to see L+R, which is more representative of the music or sounds we normally play on our systems. Preferably up to 200 Hz. It would be interesting to see if the two channels avoid interfering with each other.

Sadly I measured L and R that time, but not L+R...

Although being a measurement of an ART configuration - the R would have been active as a support speaker obviously! (along with C, both subs, etc...)

But in terms of what we achieve to obtain quality imaging, localisation and immersion, I question whether L+R is appropriate - that will provide an impression of the overall voicing of the system, but not so much the detail that is required for true immersive localisation - pinpoint imaging that moves accurately around the 360 degree stage... for that it is more useful to look at the measurements of each individual speaker and try to get them to match as closely as possible...

 

[janbth]

Sadly I measured L and R that time, but not L+R...

OK, no problem. I have a Marantz Cinema 30 on order, but with a long delivery time. When it one day arrives, I will do these measurements myself.

But in terms of what we achieve to obtain quality imaging, localisation and immersion, I question whether L+R is appropriate - that will provide an impression of the overall voicing of the system, but not so much the detail that is required for true immersive localisation - pinpoint imaging that moves accurately around the 360 degree stage... for that it is more useful to look at the measurements of each individual speaker and try to get them to match as closely as possible...

I’m not so sure about that. Effects like immersion and imaging are produced by mid or high frequencies, not the low frequencies where ART is active.

 

[Oddball]

Where do you get these responses from? Please feel free to call out what was incorrect. My guess is you can't because I didn't say anything controversial, except to maybe you.

I rest my case and have many better things so do right now. Perhaps we can discuss some other time, but probably best just to let it go