Post-DIRAC Live ART Calibration - Lack of Bass

[smygolf]

Might be a bug, manual says -24 is max
I do not have the time to measure the difference today

*edit*
According to Dirac filter graph it was only a small difference between -50 /-18 so 24 looks to be max even if it is possible to put in -50

 

[Denon545]

Might be a bug, manual says -24 is max
I do not have the time to measure the difference today
View attachment 495943
*edit*
According to Dirac filter graph it was only a small difference between -50 /-18 so 24 looks to be max even if it is possible to put in -50

That’s my understanding as well. You can technically put in a higher support value, but the filters max out at -24.

 

[Freido28]

You're all amazing. Truly, thank you. I'm excited to get home tonight and update the setting and test it

 

[Freido28]

By default ART sets the subwoofer support at -18. You can go as high as -24.

At -18 it will balance the bass with a combination of the subs and the mains. I turned mine to -24 so that it bias towards the subs more than the mains.

Go to your subwoofer group and click on the three dots and then you can change the support level. Once you change it, be sure to hit enter to set it or it will revert back.

Just for clarity, should I only be going into the group that has the sub alone, then changing the support level for ALL groups (pictured below), or should I only be changing the Group 6 (sub) within the Group 6 grouping? Or changing the Group 6 sub setting within every single groups' "is supported by"? Sorry for the noob question, i'm a little out of my depth here

 

[Denon545]

I changed the subwoofer support on the subs within each and every group. It looks like your sub is group 6. So change group 6’s support level in each and every group, including group 6 itself.

You could make one preset slot with the subs set at -18 in each group. And then make another slot with the subs set at -24 support for each group. That way you can quickly change presets while you’re listening. It makes it easier to compare the change.

 

[Freido28]

Finally figured out how to run REW. I turned off my DIRAC processing on the denon and ran it using the sweeps drom Obsessive Compulsive Audiophile, here's what I got

 

[Freido28]

And here's the measurement using REW's default playback, but without measuring the heights.

 

[smygolf]

Can you post the mdat file for the measurement ?
And do a measurement after Dirac calibration and post that to

The huge room mode at 35hs can absolutly decive you to think that you have more bass
Also, what speakers are you using ?

 

[Keith_W]

1. No smoothing.
2. Way too zoomed out.

 

[Freido28]

1. No smoothing.
2. Way too zoomed out.

Sorry, first time using this so didn't really know what was helpful to show
I'll post the meat file tonight like requested

 

[staticV3]

Sorry, first time using this so didn't really know what was helpful to show
I'll post the meat file tonight like requested

Keep in mind you'll have to Zip it first to upload here.

ASR doesn't support uploading .mdat natively.

 

[Freido28]

Can you post the mdat file for the measurement ?
And do a measurement after Dirac calibration and post that to

The huge room mode at 35hs can absolutly decive you to think that you have more bass
Also, what speakers are you using ?

Here's the full set of measurements zipped.
My 5.1.4 setup:
L/R - KEF R3 Meta's
C - KEF R6 Meta
Surround - Old Onkyo's (came in a HTIB set)
Ceiling - Sonance VP62R
Sub - Hsu Research VTF-2 Mk5

 

[kawauso]

Here's the full set of measurements zipped.
My 5.1.4 setup:
L/R - KEF R3 Meta's
C - KEF R6 Meta
Surround - Old Onkyo's (came in a HTIB set)
Ceiling - Sonance VP62R
Sub - Hsu Research VTF-2 Mk5

If this is the result after calibration, it looks like the Dirac calibration did not work properly.
I would recommend starting over from the initial setup.
You may also want to try running the calibration at a slightly higher volume level.

In addition, REW sweeps are generally easier to interpret when measured at a somewhat higher playback level.

 

[BG Extraordinaire]

For what it's worth. I'm having the same experience with Dirac ART. I'm also a novice with Dirac, having used primarily Audyssey in the past. I love everything Dirac is doing except for the bass output (9.4.6 set up with four PSA TV2112s). I've been experimenting with how hot to run the subs before running the measurements, to give Dirac more headroom to boost it after calibration via the target curve.

My latest run provided the most successful results yet, getting the impactful bass I wanted (after setting the target curve of my mains and subs at around +11db from 15 to 100hz). When setting the volume levels in Dirac, right before measuring, I had my mains around -37, but cut the subs back by -8 to get them to -26. However, the post-calibration trim levels in my AV10 are boosting my mains to +10 and cutting my subs to -10, so I think the pre-calibration SPL gap between them is too great. I would assume I don't want to max out the trim adjustments, and instead aim to keep those in single digits. I'm going to give it another try this weekend after cutting the sub amp gain a bit more, perhaps aiming for a 15-18db gap between the subs and mains, before rerunning the measurements. I share this in case this approach might help you, and also if others who have tried this might be able to share their feedback with us both on how successful this might be.

 

[Oddball]

For what it's worth. I'm having the same experience with Dirac ART. I'm also a novice with Dirac, having used primarily Audyssey in the past. I love everything Dirac is doing except for the bass output (9.4.6 set up with four PSA TV2112s). I've been experimenting with how hot to run the subs before running the measurements, to give Dirac more headroom to boost it after calibration via the target curve.

My latest run provided the most successful results yet, getting the impactful bass I wanted (after setting the target curve of my mains and subs at around +11db from 15 to 100hz). When setting the volume levels in Dirac, right before measuring, I had my mains around -37, but cut the subs back by -8 to get them to -26. However, the post-calibration trim levels in my AV10 are boosting my mains to +10 and cutting my subs to -10, so I think the pre-calibration SPL gap between them is too great. I would assume I don't want to max out the trim adjustments, and instead aim to keep those in single digits. I'm going to give it another try this weekend after cutting the sub amp gain a bit more, perhaps aiming for a 15-18db gap between the subs and mains, before rerunning the measurements. I share this in case this approach might help you, and also if others who have tried this might be able to share their feedback with us both on how successful this might be.

Dirac recommends that all your channels measure at about middle of the SPL bar at the first level of calibration. This is how your system actually gets the highest headroom. What you got with +10 and -10dB offsets is exactly the opposite.

There is nothing you can gain with having subs turned up higher as that will be offset by negative trim adjustment after calibration.

If +12dB curve is not sufficient for you after successful ART calibration in line with recommendations, then ART is probably not the right choice for you. DLBC is different and might cater better to your needs.

Alternative is to effectively by-pass ART with after the fact adjustments to sub gain levels. Couple of dB will still keep ART alive, but moving to +6dB and above is where ART becomes relatively ineffective and DLBC might be a better solution.

 

[BG Extraordinaire]

Dirac recommends that all your channels measure at about middle of the SPL bar at the first level of calibration. This is how your system actually gets the highest headroom. What you got with +10 and -10dB offsets is exactly the opposite.

There is nothing you can gain with having subs turned up higher as that will be offset by negative trim adjustment after calibration.

If +12dB curve is not sufficient for you after successful ART calibration in line with recommendations, then ART is probably not the right choice for you. DLBC is different and might cater better to your needs.

Alternative is to effectively by-pass ART with after the fact adjustments to sub gain levels. Couple of dB will still keep ART alive, but moving to +6dB and above is where ART becomes relatively ineffective and DLBC might be a better solution.

I appreciate the feedback. Like I said, still quite new to Dirac. I used Dirac Live years ago on my stereo setup, but haven't used DLBC on its own. I'm hesitant to skip out on ART all together, as I love what it's doing with my ear level speakers. But it may be worth giving DLBC a shot just to see how it differs.

Your comment on some minor post-calibration adjustments to the sub gain was also one of the somewhat successful approaches I tried. I may end up back there, just adding a few db to my near-field sub and leave the rest alone. Given how new ART is, I figure this will all take considerable trial and error to get it just right to my tastes. But that's also what it took over years of attempts with Audyssey and the minidsp, seeking each of those small incremental improvements. There's something to be said about enjoying the learning process on the road to audio bliss!

 

[Oddball]

Well ART is not new - it's been around for years. It would help if you could let us know your system and room. In most setups ART actually does not require lots of trial and error. If the setup is ART ready, it works pretty well out of the box. Tweaks help but not to the point of make it or break it. Again, the limit on ART is +12dB curve, which in all likelihood will not be exactly +12dB as few systems will able to accomodate that high of a boost.

 

[BG Extraordinaire]

Fair enough. I think of it as new to a wider audience, with it only having been recently rolled out broadly to Denon and Marantz users, but point taken.

As for the details on my 9.4.6 setup, I have the equipment below in a 20x14x7.5ft closed off room, so 2100cft, arranged on the long wall, seated about 2/3 back. Definitely overkill for my room size, but nonetheless a setup I love. I've enjoyed the strong bass response / heavy house curve I've been able to achieve manually via my miniDSP previously, but am connecting directly to the AV10 via XLR now that I am running Dirac. I'm mostly looking to feel that kick when listening to more bass heavy music, and likely having another more reasonable Dirac profile setting when listening to movies.

Mains: Ascend Acoustics ELX Towers with ribbon tweeter
Center: Ascend Acoustics ELX Horizon Center with ribbon tweeter
Surr / Rears / Fr Wides: Focal Aria 906 x6
Heights: Polk ES10 x6 (set up as heights in the AVP)
Subwoofers: PSA TV2112M x4, with one near-field behind MLP, another also on backwall, and two on the side walls at 1/4 length
Processing: Marantz AV10
Amplification: Buckeye Amps, Hypex NCx500 3-Channel (380w into 8ohm) driving the LCR, and 8ch and 4ch Hypex NC252MP (150w) amps driving the rest
Acoustic Treatment: Soffit traps in front corners (17" square) and tri-traps in rear corners, 6.5" bass traps on front wall behind both tower speakers. I have more bass traps that I've used on the side and rear walls, but I've recently been trialing without them in order to not keep the windows covered.

 

[kawauso]

Fair enough. I think of it as new to a wider audience, with it only having been recently rolled out broadly to Denon and Marantz users, but point taken.

As for the details on my 9.4.6 setup, I have the equipment below in a 20x14x7.5ft closed off room, so 2100cft, arranged on the long wall, seated about 2/3 back. Definitely overkill for my room size, but nonetheless a setup I love. I've enjoyed the strong bass response / heavy house curve I've been able to achieve manually via my miniDSP previously, but am connecting directly to the AV10 via XLR now that I am running Dirac. I'm mostly looking to feel that kick when listening to more bass heavy music, and likely having another more reasonable Dirac profile setting when listening to movies.

Mains: Ascend Acoustics ELX Towers with ribbon tweeter
Center: Ascend Acoustics ELX Horizon Center with ribbon tweeter
Surr / Rears / Fr Wides: Focal Aria 906 x6
Heights: Polk ES10 x6 (set up as heights in the AVP)
Subwoofers: PSA TV2112M x4, with one near-field behind MLP, another also on backwall, and two on the side walls at 1/4 length
Processing: Marantz AV10
Amplification: Buckeye Amps, Hypex NCx500 3-Channel (380w into 8ohm) driving the LCR, and 8ch and 4ch Hypex NC252MP (150w) amps driving the rest
Acoustic Treatment: Soffit traps in front corners (17" square) and tri-traps in rear corners, 6.5" bass traps on front wall behind both tower speakers. I have more bass traps that I've used on the side and rear walls, but I've recently been trialing without them in order to not keep the windows covered.

Hi BG Extraordinaire, welcome to ASR.
The Ascend Acoustics ELX Towers have really nice, smooth yet sharp dispersion, and the TV2112M are also excellent large subwoofers.
This is a bit separate from the <20Hz discussion, but I’d recommend creating a movie preset where only the LFE channel is boosted by about +10dB or +12dB, similar to what’s shown in the link below. This way you can add punch to the LFE channel while keeping the rest of the sound clean and well balanced.
If that still isn’t enough, another option is to use a miniDSP to add gain or tilt to all of your subwoofers. To preserve headroom for ART, you could set the subwoofer amp gain a bit higher, then attenuate by something like -20dB in the miniDSP before running ART calibration.

And please feel free to post more in the ART thread as well. There are many people there who really enjoy using ART and sharing their experiences.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...oom-treatment-art-by-dirac.40743/post-2439319

 

[Oddball]

Surprised that in your setup ART is not performing. But then again we all have different preferences. Bass with DLBC or other EQ solutions can get much louder at expense of other attributes like clarity, imaging etc. We need to choose what we like ultimately. Nothing wrong with my 9.4.4 setup, except that it sound so right and even more so with +12dB bass curve.