Possible solution for DTS/Dolby/Atmos+eARC+HDCP to AES/EBU - via Dante? (for Okto DAC8PRO etc)

[Kal Rubinson]

You're planning to use a PC in the middle of the chain for EQ? Isn't that going to incur massive latency?

I don't know or care about that. My system is audio-only.

 

[kandamrgam]

I think you're right, but the question that HAS to be answered about the Bluestream is whether it needs Bitstream or LPCM audio over HMDI to do what it does.

You can email them, they are very responsive.

 

[kandamrgam]

Given the price of AudioControl’s current top end products the Hyperion is going to be more towards the already available Storm audio end of the market.

I don’t hold out much hope for the Arvus which leaves the currently available Bluestream box.

I wonder why some Chinese company has not seen an opportunity here and knocked it out of the park

 

[kandamrgam]

I was referred to this thread from my own thread where I'm dealing with somewhat similar problems (i.e. going from HDMI eARC Dolby/DTS to digital AES/EBU or at the very least balanced analog).

The SW42DA looks like an extremely interesting product; even just the fact it has balanced analog outputs is already interesting (alternatives like the Marantz AV10 are 5 times the price), but on top of that the AES67 output makes it furiously intriguing. I hope it works as well in practice as it does on paper.

The only gap with a SW42DA-based solution is EQ/room correction. Are there any products out there that can do advanced parametric EQ/routing/mixing on a AES67 stream and then re-output AES67, AES/EBU, or even balanced analog? I could just slap a miniDSP on the balanced analog outs but might as well stay in the digital domain as much as possible. The Nuprime-X H16-A just mentioned boasts room correction support but it's not clear how customizable the parametric EQ is.

If you are going to use Genelec, you can do the room correction at the speaker level. Personally I like to do it at processor level.

 

[edechamps]

If you are going to use Genelec, you can do the room correction at the speaker level. Personally I like to do it at processor level.

The problem is bass management. Ideally the bass management should be done in the SW42DA but it doesn't look like it can do it. Without buying another device, the only other place to do it is in the Genelec sub. It can only do that when using the analog I/O on the sub, and it would involve 10 cables going in and out of the sub, which may end up being placed at the other end of the room. Not exactly practical.

So I think I need another box anyway, which would do bass management and EQ/room correction. That other box can be a Genelec 9401A which can centralize the bass management but it's expensive (£2500) and locks me into the GLM ecosystem. Or it can be something like a miniDSP Flex HTx, which is cheaper and more flexible but involves going back and forth between digital and analog. I wish miniDSP had AES67 options…

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I wish miniDSP had AES67 options…

You really should look at the options that Nuprime is developing.

 

[kandamrgam]

You really should look at the options that Nuprime is developing.

I dont see any subwoofer related ports on H16-A.

 

[kandamrgam]

The problem is bass management. Ideally the bass management should be done in the SW42DA but it doesn't look like it can do it. Without buying another device, the only other place to do it is in the Genelec sub. It can only do that when using the analog I/O on the sub, and it would involve 10 cables going in and out of the sub, which may end up being placed at the other end of the room. Not exactly practical.

So I think I need another box anyway, which would do bass management and EQ/room correction. That other box can be a Genelec 9401A which can centralize the bass management but it's expensive (£2500) and locks me into the GLM ecosystem. Or it can be something like a miniDSP Flex HTx, which is cheaper and more flexible but involves going back and forth between digital and analog. I wish miniDSP had AES67 options…

Oh meanwhile if you weren't aware already, Genelec subs are more expensive than their speakers. It came as total shock to me. I was expecting subs to be the cheapest.

 

[welwynnick]

I dont see any subwoofer related ports on H16-A.

LFE will presumably be one of the 16 Dante channels. Probably need to wait until the user manual comes out

 

[edechamps]

Oh meanwhile if you weren't aware already, Genelec subs are more expensive than their speakers. It came as total shock to me. I was expecting subs to be the cheapest.

Yeah, though it's not like Genelec is known for being cheap. I'm way more shocked by what they charge for the Genelec 9401A, which is a purely electronic digital device yet costs more than, say, a Genelec 8341, which is a state-of-the-art highly sophisticated loudspeaker that very obviously costs way more to produce. The only reason they get away with charging this much is because they know people in our situation can be somewhat desperate…

It's not that I don't like Genelec subwoofers (I own one currently - a 12-year-old 7060A), but my concern with them is it's unclear if they're good value for money given I couldn't really find good third-party measurements for them. I'm also a bit anxious about GLM maybe not being as flexible as a miniDSP and being locked into their ecosystem, i.e. if you want to use GLM then you have to buy everything from Genelec. I like to keep my options open, now and for the future.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I dont see any subwoofer related ports on H16-A.

It is just one of the channels, ain't it?

 

[carolimagni]

Honestly, if the Genelec monitors are at the core of your project, you might have to double-down on their ecosystem; the I/O of the 8341s seem suited to the mega AV/specialist units or the ecosystems kit. The analogue alternatives mean making the 8341s functionally passive speakers, which isn't great on the wallet either. I suppose there's more options for room correction and bass management if you outsourced the DAC stage and used the XLR-ins on the 8341s.

If the magic is in the drivers and their tuning, the DA stage shouldn't matter so much should it? The 8351B is said to use the AKM AK4621EF, so you probably wouldn't have to shoot for the moon to match it's performance. I'd personally would be fascinated to know how a 5.1 setup with 8341s fed by a DAC8PRO with manual XMOS bass management and room correction would sound and compare to digital transport options. None of these paths leave the wallet unscathed. The thought of 10 cables would disturb me also.

I don't envy that conundrum.

 

[darth]

I ended up giving up going digital route and got a minidsp flex htx for 5.1. I think maybe late this year or next I will reevaluate if I want to go all digital when I try to upgrade to 5.1.2.

PC/AppleTV --> HDMI --> LG OLED --> eARC --> minidsp --> trs/XLR --> 7350 --> XLR --> 3x8341 / 2x8331

Maybe later

PC/AppleTV --> HDMI --> LG OLED --> eARC --> XYZ --> aes67 --> 9401A ---> 7350 / 3x8341 / 4x8331

Ideally XYZ is compact and sub $2000. Can Dolby Atmos decode.

 

[chelgrian]

I think you're right, but the question that HAS to be answered about the Bluestream is whether it needs Bitstream or LPCM audio over HMDI to do what it does.

It does Atmos, Atmos cannot be transported over LPCM. Thus the unit is licensed to do the Dolby formats over HDMI and the license specifies you must be able to deal with the legacy stuff as well if you can consume Dolby MAT for Atmos.

I don’t know how many other ways I can put this. Obviously you can email the company for confirmation.

 

[chelgrian]

The problem is bass management. Ideally the bass management should be done in the SW42DA but it doesn't look like it can do it. Without buying another device, the only other place to do it is in the Genelec sub. It can only do that when using the analog I/O on the sub, and it would involve 10 cables going in and out of the sub, which may end up being placed at the other end of the room. Not exactly practical.

So I think I need another box anyway, which would do bass management and EQ/room correction. That other box can be a Genelec 9401A which can centralize the bass management but it's expensive (£2500) and locks me into the GLM ecosystem. Or it can be something like a miniDSP Flex HTx, which is cheaper and more flexible but involves going back and forth between digital and analog. I wish miniDSP had AES67 options…

If you are using a 9401A and AES to the speakers and sub then the bass management is actually being done in the DSP in the speakers what the 9401 is really dumb all it is really doing is taking in AES67 and turning it in to AES3 it sends two signals to the SAM sub the LFE and a sum of all the all the other channels and the DSP in the sub deals with everything else.

If you are not going to use GLM there is no point in buying in to the AES connected SAM monitor line at all.

 

[edechamps]

If you are using a 9401A and AES to the speakers and sub then the bass management is actually being done in the DSP in the speakers what the 9401 is really dumb all it is really doing is taking in AES67 and turning it in to AES3 it sends two signals to the SAM sub the LFE and a sum of all the all the other channels and the DSP in the sub deals with everything else.

That makes it even more outrageuous that they would sell this "really dumb" 9401 for £2500…

If you are not going to use GLM there is no point in buying in to the AES connected SAM monitor line at all.

I'm buying 8341s/8351s for their formidable acoustic performance and their coaxial design, not for GLM. I know how to do room correction myself with a parametric EQ such as miniDSP. The only appeal of GLM for me is ease of use and the integrated experience mostly. But I don't think that's enough to justify the £2k difference between a 9401 and a miniDSP Flex HTx.

 

[carolimagni]

If you are using a 9401A and AES to the speakers and sub then the bass management is actually being done in the DSP in the speakers what the 9401 is really dumb all it is really doing is taking in AES67 and turning it in to AES3 it sends two signals to the SAM sub the LFE and a sum of all the all the other channels and the DSP in the sub deals with everything else.

If you are not going to use GLM there is no point in buying in to the AES connected SAM monitor line at all.

Is it with a sort of fixed crossover point? I can't see any details in the manual aside from this in a screenshot. I'm a bit ignorant of Genelec, but I can see the 8341A has DIP switches on the back so you can configure some bass roll-off, but does the GLM stuff apply HPF/LPF alongside the summing+LFE? Feel like I'm missing something.

I ended up giving up going digital route and got a minidsp flex htx for 5.1. I think maybe late this year or next I will reevaluate if I want to go all digital when I try to upgrade to 5.1.2.

PC/AppleTV --> HDMI --> LG OLED --> eARC --> minidsp --> trs/XLR --> 7350 --> XLR --> 3x8341 / 2x8331

Maybe later

PC/AppleTV --> HDMI --> LG OLED --> eARC --> XYZ --> aes67 --> 9401A ---> 7350 / 3x8341 / 4x8331

Ideally XYZ is compact and sub $2000. Can Dolby Atmos decode.

Another factor, particularly in this price bracket, is HDMI revision. The blustream is limited to HDMI 2.0b. However this nuprime-x H16-A box claims to support 8K, which means it must be HDMI revision 2.1>. Be very interested to know if VRR works through it also as that's 2.1 exclusive. This H16 looks like the favourite at the moment.

 

[edechamps]

Another factor, particularly in this price bracket, is HDMI revision. The blustream is limited to HDMI 2.0b. However this nuprime-x H16-A box claims to support 8K, which means it must be HDMI revision 2.1>. Be very interested to know if VRR works through it also as that's 2.1 exclusive.

Any reason you're not using eARC passthrough, i.e. using the device as a sink, as opposed to inserting it between your sources and your display? If you use eARC then presumably the HDMI revision doesn't matter because the video is not going through the link?

Personally there is no way I'm putting any of these things (AVRs or processors or anything else) between the source and the TV. Too much potential for trouble, between HDMI bottlenecks, EDID snafus, sync issues, horrible UIs etc. I've seen several setups be plagued by annoying issues like these. Their owners have sworn never to insert an AVR in the middle of the chain ever again.

 

[masterhw]

Any reason you're not using eARC passthrough, i.e. using the device as a sink, as opposed to inserting it between your sources and your display? If you use eARC then presumably the HDMI revision doesn't matter because the video is not going through the link?

Personally there is no way I'm putting any of these things (AVRs or processors or anything else) between the source and the TV. Too much potential for trouble, between HDMI bottlenecks, EDID snafus, sync issues, horrible UIs etc. I've seen several setups be plagued by annoying issues like these. Their owners have sworn never to insert an AVR in the middle of the chain ever again.

it is frustratingly common for even premium TVs (like my Samsung OLED) to cheap out on licensing and not pass through all codecs. Why the TV even has to be licensed when it isn't doing any processing or decoding to the signal is beyond me.

 

[darth]

Yea I would stick with eARC and not HDMI passthrough for the very same reason. PC gsync remains intact.