Possible solution for DTS/Dolby/Atmos+eARC+HDCP to AES/EBU - via Dante? (for Okto DAC8PRO etc)

[kfrancis]

I guess I wouldn't miss too much with no going storm given the glm? For 9301, it is limited to 8 channels and lots of aes cabling.. I may prefer to go 9401 AoIP with 16 channels and db25 connection....And I didn't find other digital subwoofers either.

The 9301b supports 16 channels. When it shows AES 1-4 and AES 5-8 on the inputs, that's because each AES "channel" carries two channels, usually called A and B. With the H16-AES the cabling won't be too bad, because the outputs match the 9301b inputs. You'll need

• 2 DB25-to-DB25 cables, like this Avid one or this Mogami one, for H16-AES -> 9301b
• 1 DB25-to-XLRM breakout cable, like this Avid one, for 9301b -> 8 separate AES outputs (with two channels each)
• 8 XLR AES cables out to the speakers/subs + 8 more between the pairs of speakers/subs (see below)

You will have to cable the speakers in the same way the H16-AES outputs them. For example, if the first two channels are L and R, that'll be AES 1 A and B, etc. If you connect the AES 1 output from the 9301b to L, you will have to connect the L speaker passthrough to the R speaker input. There's not much flexibility here. So, this part of the cabling might indeed be a bit annoying. But, honestly, if you can tolerate the GLM daisy-chain cabling, this shouldn't be a big deal either.

If you use the 9401a, you can route any channel to any of the AES outputs, which makes the cabling more flexible. Note that I think the H16-AIP is legit Dante, which means in AES67 mode it will be limited to 48 kHz. I think others have found the StormAudio is also limited to 48k even with "native" AES67, though. In a Genelec video about the 9401a, they mentioned a variant coming that will be proper Dante, but that hasn't been released, and it's been many months, so I wouldn't hold my breath.

I used Dante for all this and chose to use a DAD Core 256 to do the bass management summing instead of a 9401a (which didn't exist at the time). It does the same thing plus a lot more, but it's definitely less plug-and-play. Then I have a Dante AVIO AES adapter at each speaker (or pair of speakers, if convenient). Then the cabling is just Cat 5e or 6, which, you may have noticed, is significantly cheaper than proper XLR AES cables, not to mention easier to physically deal with and size correctly. You'd need a PoE switch to do it this way, and probably a little networking experience or willingness to learn.

If I use 2 7380 with analog, then I don't think I need 9301 for 16 channels. But if I plan to go digital, I'll need 9301? One thing I don't understand is why the 9301 has glm? Doesn't every subwoofer has glm already? Given 7380 has analog function of this, I think the subs may be out of date.. at least the 9301 digital part should be embeded in the subs like the analog ones. Wouldn't you agree? But then i didn't find any other digital subs...Do you have any to recommend that goes well with Genelec?

The 9301b has GLM just for setup, mostly. The 9301b does only these simple things:

• It passes the 16 input channels directly without modification to the 16 output channels
• It sums the 16 input channels (except the selected LFE channel) and outputs that sum to its separate sub output on one AES subframe
• It outputs the selected LFE channel on the sub output on the other AES subframe

The actual low pass filter and summing in of the LFE channel is in the subwoofer, and the high pass filter is in each of the other speakers. All the speakers a receiving a full-band signal rather than the bass management happening before the speakers.

I wouldn't recommend the analog setup for more than 7.1, because, aside from the even worse cabling nightmare, each sub would only be able to bass manage 7 channels, which is not probably not what you want.

 

[sfogg]

I'm working through something similar but to get 8 channels of high def. into a QLI-32. In my case, I have a couple of devices I am going to modify for 8 channel out over 4 SPDIF and then either put that into the QLI-32 directly or input the SPDIF into the BSS boxes. I have a couple of different HDMI pass through boxes (which means the source has to do the decoding) and I also picked up a SDP-25 that I will modify. The SDP-25 means the source wouldn't have to decode.

The QLI-32 will then output over blulink for bass management, EQ, bi-amped LCR, time alignment and master volume control.

 

[darth]

9301B (AES3) and 9401A (AES67) are both 16 channels. 9301A was 8 channels iirc. If you use analog and bass manage via 2 subs you wouldn't need these but you will likely have to split channels between the 2 if they all don't fit within 1 sub. Hypothetically if you were doing a 7.1.4 setup, then you would bass manage 7 channels + LFE on the 1st sub and 4 channels on the 2nd sub. I do not know if the subs can be linked to each other both ways. One subs LFE out and link out can go to 2nd sub. Probably best to ask Genelec support on how to best connect such amount of channels.

 

[KitoDavy]

The 9301b supports 16 channels. When it shows AES 1-4 and AES 5-8 on the inputs, that's because each AES "channel" carries two channels, usually called A and B. With the H16-AES the cabling won't be too bad, because the outputs match the 9301b inputs. You'll need

• 2 DB25-to-DB25 cables, like this Avid one or this Mogami one, for H16-AES -> 9301b
• 1 DB25-to-XLRM breakout cable, like this Avid one, for 9301b -> 8 separate AES outputs (with two channels each)
• 8 XLR AES cables out to the speakers/subs + 8 more between the pairs of speakers/subs (see below)

You will have to cable the speakers in the same way the H16-AES outputs them. For example, if the first two channels are L and R, that'll be AES 1 A and B, etc. If you connect the AES 1 output from the 9301b to L, you will have to connect the L speaker passthrough to the R speaker input. There's not much flexibility here. So, this part of the cabling might indeed be a bit annoying. But, honestly, if you can tolerate the GLM daisy-chain cabling, this shouldn't be a big deal either.

If you use the 9401a, you can route any channel to any of the AES outputs, which makes the cabling more flexible. Note that I think the H16-AIP is legit Dante, which means in AES67 mode it will be limited to 48 kHz. I think others have found the StormAudio is also limited to 48k even with "native" AES67, though. In a Genelec video about the 9401a, they mentioned a variant coming that will be proper Dante, but that hasn't been released, and it's been many months, so I wouldn't hold my breath.

I used Dante for all this and chose to use a DAD Core 256 to do the bass management summing instead of a 9401a (which didn't exist at the time). It does the same thing plus a lot more, but it's definitely less plug-and-play. Then I have a Dante AVIO AES adapter at each speaker (or pair of speakers, if convenient). Then the cabling is just Cat 5e or 6, which, you may have noticed, is significantly cheaper than proper XLR AES cables, not to mention easier to physically deal with and size correctly. You'd need a PoE switch to do it this way, and probably a little networking experience or willingness to learn.

The 9301b has GLM just for setup, mostly. The 9301b does only these simple things:

• It passes the 16 input channels directly without modification to the 16 output channels
• It sums the 16 input channels (except the selected LFE channel) and outputs that sum to its separate sub output on one AES subframe
• It outputs the selected LFE channel on the sub output on the other AES subframe

The actual low pass filter and summing in of the LFE channel is in the subwoofer, and the high pass filter is in each of the other speakers. All the speakers a receiving a full-band signal rather than the bass management happening before the speakers.

I wouldn't recommend the analog setup for more than 7.1, because, aside from the even worse cabling nightmare, each sub would only be able to bass manage 7 channels, which is not probably not what you want.

Thank you so much for this detailed instructions!

I'm lucky to have the dealer throw in the Mogami Platinum AES cables for me for free when I buy the genelec 8361s. So I don't need to bother with the heavy spending on cables or dante adapters, which I know can be expensive too, since you still need the AES to go into the genelecs at the end. The only cost you cut is the length of the AES cable and replaced with ethernet cables, not the number of cables.

I guess the reason to have 9301/9401 is because the multi-channel signals doesn't have a dedicated LFE channel. If I have stormaudio or trinnov to have a proper LFE channel signal, then I don't need this extra box to sum all channels and then distribute? Then I started to think, probably genelec has better understanding of crossing over of their own subs and "satellite" the ones series speakers. So even I have a reference processor. I may still benefit from the 9401 base management piece for better crossover and give those satellite speakers more headrooms. Did I get anything wrong?

 

[KitoDavy]

9301B (AES3) and 9401A (AES67) are both 16 channels. 9301A was 8 channels iirc. If you use analog and bass manage via 2 subs you wouldn't need these but you will likely have to split channels between the 2 if they all don't fit within 1 sub. Hypothetically if you were doing a 7.1.4 setup, then you would bass manage 7 channels + LFE on the 1st sub and 4 channels on the 2nd sub. I do not know if the subs can be linked to each other both ways. One subs LFE out and link out can go to 2nd sub. Probably best to ask Genelec support on how to best connect such amount of channels.

Thank you! I didn't notice the 9301B now has 16 channels too. It sounds like either analog or digital. Both need doubling the cables because of the bass management piece......either though the sub, or through the 9301/9401 box.............

 

[kfrancis]

I guess the reason to have 9301/9401 is because the multi-channel signals doesn't have a dedicated LFE channel. If I have stormaudio or trinnov to have a proper LFE channel signal, then I don't need this extra box to sum all channels and then distribute? Then I started to think, probably genelec has better understanding of crossing over of their own subs and "satellite" the ones series speakers. So even I have a reference processor. I may still benefit from the 9401 base management piece for better crossover and give those satellite speakers more headrooms. Did I get anything wrong?

The multi-channel signals have a dedicated LFE channel – the ".1" channel – but that channel is completely separate from the bass management for all the other channels. Even without a 9301/9401, you can still send the actual LFE channel to the subwoofers. The "problem" is only if you want the bass from the other channels to go to the subwoofers too, which most people do.

If you have a StormAudio or Trinnov, you won't need the extra Genelec box. Those can do all the bass management before the speakers. They'll probably use a different crossover filter than Genelec's (which is really steep for whatever reason), but different doesn't mean bad. Similarly, they can do volume control, and it'll be on the digital signal before it reaches the speakers, but I can't imagine you would be sacrificing anything audible up against GLM's volume control.

I think if you try to add a 9301/9401 to one of those processors, it might be a challenge to have it setup right. AVRs/processors like to output the LFE channel + all the bass below the crossover point all together over the subwoofer output(s). You would need to set them up to output the full band signal of all channels + the LFE channel to the subwoofer output and the full-band signal of each channel to the respective speaker. I'm not sure if they have such a setting.

One potential advantage of StormAudio or Trinnov over using the Genelec bass management is that those processors have discrete subwoofer outputs for multiple subwoofers and can theoretically make those subwoofers work together to improve bass response in the room. GLM can calibrate each subwoofer individually, and it sounds pretty great, but it's not as advanced as StormAudio's Dirac ART or Trinnov's WaveForming which allow multiple speakers/subs to really work together to combat negative influences from the room.

Also, if you do rely on the processor for bass management, you don't really need Genelec subwoofers necessarily, whereas you do if you want to rely only on GLM.

 

[kfrancis]

I think if you try to add a 9301/9401 to one of those processors, it might be a challenge to have it setup right. AVRs/processors like to output the LFE channel + all the bass below the crossover point all together over the subwoofer output(s). You would need to set them up to output the full band signal of all channels + the LFE channel to the subwoofer output and the full-band signal of each channel to the respective speaker. I'm not sure if they have such a setting.

Actually, if you could configure them to do this, you don't need a 9301/9401 at all. And you could still use GLM to do the bass management if you wanted. All the speakers would be getting the signal they need already.

 

[KitoDavy]

The multi-channel signals have a dedicated LFE channel – the ".1" channel – but that channel is completely separate from the bass management for all the other channels. Even without a 9301/9401, you can still send the actual LFE channel to the subwoofers. The "problem" is only if you want the bass from the other channels to go to the subwoofers too, which most people do.

If you have a StormAudio or Trinnov, you won't need the extra Genelec box. Those can do all the bass management before the speakers. They'll probably use a different crossover filter than Genelec's (which is really steep for whatever reason), but different doesn't mean bad. Similarly, they can do volume control, and it'll be on the digital signal before it reaches the speakers, but I can't imagine you would be sacrificing anything audible up against GLM's volume control.

I think if you try to add a 9301/9401 to one of those processors, it might be a challenge to have it setup right. AVRs/processors like to output the LFE channel + all the bass below the crossover point all together over the subwoofer output(s). You would need to set them up to output the full band signal of all channels + the LFE channel to the subwoofer output and the full-band signal of each channel to the respective speaker. I'm not sure if they have such a setting.

One potential advantage of StormAudio or Trinnov over using the Genelec bass management is that those processors have discrete subwoofer outputs for multiple subwoofers and can theoretically make those subwoofers work together to improve bass response in the room. GLM can calibrate each subwoofer individually, and it sounds pretty great, but it's not as advanced as StormAudio's Dirac ART or Trinnov's WaveForming which allow multiple speakers/subs to really work together to combat negative influences from the room.

Also, if you do rely on the processor for bass management, you don't really need Genelec subwoofers necessarily, whereas you do if you want to rely only on GLM.

Thank you! I'm sold on not getting 9301/9401 since I decided to get a dedicated processor. It seems the stormaudio is doing much more than just decoding the dolby atmos into multi channels. I would still benefit a lot from it compared to the other cheaper processors coming this year like the H16?

Since I don't plan to get the 9401/9301 for base managment. And the genelec subwoofers are expensive. Any benefit of getting a digital woofer? or I can get analog ones. But then I need to get the stormaudio elite which has both analog and digital outputs.

Last question, would you recommend 2 7380s or 1 7382 if I decide to use more advanced bass management from diract ART from stormaudio instead of 9401. I currently have 5 8361 and plan to add 4 8341 as sky channels. My room is about 1000 sq ft., low ceiling basement.

 

[kfrancis]

Thank you! I'm sold on not getting 9301/9401 since I decided to get a dedicated processor. It seems the stormaudio is doing much more than just decoding the dolby atmos into multi channels. I would still benefit a lot from it compared to the other cheaper processors coming this year like the H16?

Yeah, the StormAudio ISP Evo is going to offer a lot, like Dirac ART, DTS:X Pro, speaker layouts bigger than 9.1.6 – though it seems you're gonna have 5.1.4 for now? – etc., and all the normal nice stuff that "just works" you get with a consumer AVR/processor.

Since I don't plan to get the 9401/9301 for base managment. And the genelec subwoofers are expensive. Any benefit of getting a digital woofer? or I can get analog ones. But then I need to get the stormaudio elite which has both analog and digital outputs.

The advantage would just be that you really want it to be all digital until the DACs in the speakers. You'd probably be happy with the entire system being analog. You've got so much invested in Genelec gear already, you almost might as well get Genelec subs, but I'm sure you'd be happy with subs with analog inputs, unless not-all-digital-ness will always bug you.

Last question, would you recommend 2 7380s or 1 7382 if I decide to use more advanced bass management from diract ART from stormaudio instead of 9401. I currently have 5 8361 and plan to add 4 8341 as sky channels. My room is about 1000 sq ft., low ceiling basement.

You can find many some good threads about this topic, but I think the more subs the better for an even response among several seats around the room if you care about that. You're probably better off with 4 7380s (or 7370s). Your room is massive. What are the length/width dimensions, and how low is the ceiling? 8 ft?

For what it's worth, I have 3 8351s (LCR), 6 8341s (side, back, wide), 4 8331s (top), and only 2 7360 subs, and I rarely get above -30 dB and am pretty happy with the bass. But my room is way smaller, too.

 

[KitoDavy]

Yeah, the StormAudio ISP Evo is going to offer a lot, like Dirac ART, DTS:X Pro, speaker layouts bigger than 9.1.6 – though it seems you're gonna have 5.1.4 for now? – etc., and all the normal nice stuff that "just works" you get with a consumer AVR/processor.

Yes. I only have one seat. I think 5.1.4 is good enough for me. I may expand and change my mind later given i plan to get the 32 aes storm...

The advantage would just be that you really want it to be all digital until the DACs in the speakers. You'd probably be happy with the entire system being analog. You've got so much invested in Genelec gear already, you almost might as well get Genelec subs, but I'm sure you'd be happy with subs with analog inputs, unless not-all-digital-ness will always bug you.

I don't know yet. The 8361s are going to be shipped out from genelec next Tuesday. So theoretically, I still have time to change my mind. But I think genelecs are the ones I'll go with given dolby atmos lab uses those...and most studios use those. I don't think there's any point of investing more than what was used to create the content... I used to be a stereophiler. But now I've changed....

You can find many some good threads about this topic, but I think the more subs the better for an even response among several seats around the room if you care about that. You're probably better off with 4 7380s (or 7370s). Your room is massive. What are the length/width dimensions, and how low is the ceiling? 8 ft?

The room is in a weird L shape. The rectangular part I plan to use is about 30 x 32 ft, 8 ft high. There's an opening of 20ft x 10ft or so on the side... Given i only care about 1 seat, I might be ok with just 1 7380 or at most 2 by my side? too fill the room, 4 7380 sounds to be the right amount for me...

For what it's worth, I have 3 8351s (LCR), 6 8341s (side, back, wide), 4 8331s (top), and only 2 7360 subs, and I rarely get above -30 dB and am pretty happy with the bass. But my room is way smaller, too.

You've spent your money well, all on edges....THX recommend LCR to be the same. But I found dolby atmos recommend all speakers to be the same. Although I know all ones series have identical tonality. But I compared 8341 with 8351. There are some differences, to be honest. The sound is more natural and not tight. I thought about going all 8351. But then I want the best. So I decided to go all 8361 at least the bed level.

 

[KitoDavy]

Yeah, the StormAudio ISP Evo is going to offer a lot, like Dirac ART, DTS:X Pro, speaker layouts bigger than 9.1.6 – though it seems you're gonna have 5.1.4 for now? – etc., and all the normal nice stuff that "just works" you get with a consumer AVR/processor.

The advantage would just be that you really want it to be all digital until the DACs in the speakers. You'd probably be happy with the entire system being analog. You've got so much invested in Genelec gear already, you almost might as well get Genelec subs, but I'm sure you'd be happy with subs with analog inputs, unless not-all-digital-ness will always bug you.

You can find many some good threads about this topic, but I think the more subs the better for an even response among several seats around the room if you care about that. You're probably better off with 4 7380s (or 7370s). Your room is massive. What are the length/width dimensions, and how low is the ceiling? 8 ft?

For what it's worth, I have 3 8351s (LCR), 6 8341s (side, back, wide), 4 8331s (top), and only 2 7360 subs, and I rarely get above -30 dB and am pretty happy with the bass. But my room is way smaller, too.

Are you using any AVR at this moment? Since you are on this thread, you are in the process of finding one? I found the dolby atmos content is quite limited to apple TV streamers now. I tried to use mac and 9401 AoIP solution, then I only ended up with apple music...no movie at all, except the ones in apple+...

 

[darth]

Btw, @Mort started a generic Genelec help/discussion thread here

Genelec Owners Lounge and Discussion

A thread for random Genelec discussion and comments that don’t belong in the review threads. Genelec 8361A Review (Powered Monitor) | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum Genelec 8030C Studio Monitor Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum Genelec 8351B Review (Studio Monitor) | Audio Science...

www.audiosciencereview.com

THX recommend LCR to be the same. But I found dolby atmos recommend all speakers to be the same. Although I know all ones series have identical tonality. But I compared 8341 with 8351. There are some differences, to be honest. The sound is more natural and not tight. I thought about going all 8351. But then I want the best. So I decided to go all 8361 at least the bed level.

Fwiw, I ended up with 8341 as LR, 8351 as C and rest as 8331. Saw some posts on this forum and other sites that getting larger C that can fit and can be afforded might be better as long as it's from the same model range. Though my main reason was that maybe one day I'll upgrade the LR to 8351.

Can see the real channel activity for various titles here

https://www.avsforum.com/posts/63067315/

Probably worse for streaming platforms.

 

[KitoDavy]

Can see the real channel activity for various titles here

https://www.avsforum.com/posts/63067315/

Probably worse for streaming platforms.

This is very helpful! Now I know how effectively my money gets spend on extending each channels before buying!

 

[Mort]

This is very helpful! Now I know how effectively my money gets spend on extending each channels before buying!

Maybe one of you can stop by the discussion and explain what the hell this thread is about!
Seriously I need an ELI5

 

[welwynnick]

Maybe one of you can stop by the discussion and explain what the hell this thread is about!
Seriously I need an ELI5

I think it's about trying to find a good way to get multi-channel digital audio outputs from a processor that decodes immersive audio so you can perform off-board processing and/or conversion without having to use an expensive or untrustworthy Arvus, Datasat, JBL, Lyngdorf, SMYTH, Storm or Trinnov

 

[Mort]

I think it's about trying to find a good way to get multi-channel digital audio output

A possibly dumb question. If I want 5.1 only, what do I need to go digital?

 

[KitoDavy]

Maybe one of you can stop by the discussion and explain what the hell this thread is about!
Seriously I need an ELI5

I interpreted that you will get the most of the dolby atmos contents from a 5.1.2 setting for most movies. Beyond this setting, you would just get similar contents duplicated similarly among other additional speakers you add.

 

[welwynnick]

A possibly dumb question. If I want 5.1 only, what do I need to go digital?

Easy - Audiopraise VanityPRO or NuprimeX H16-AES.

 

[KitoDavy]

A possibly dumb question. If I want 5.1 only, what do I need to go digital?

fully digital? speakers that takes digital input like genelecs SAM monitors. processor or pre-amp that can do multi-channel digital outputs. At this point, for consumer products with hdmi inputs, you will be looking at trinnov altitude32/stormaudio isp evo, which are all above $20k.... All the products listed in previous tables like H16 or H2-4D...But I don't think they are very consumer friendly.. You will miss lots of functions, they only provide basic hdmi in, digital outs for dolby atmos.

 

[Behrelec 37]

Consumers are always offered multi-channel analog sound from movies, and it has worked this way in practice for many decades. But in studios, movie sound is processed digitally from start to finish and everyone knows this, and it sounds much, much better than what all millions of consumers get to taste with their numerous different brands of AV amplifiers, Denon, Maranz. Onkyo, Sony, pioneer, Yamaha... dacs outputting analog sound to their speakers. That movie sound is practically always a blur sound. Every single time it is listened to in analog.