Possible solution for DTS/Dolby/Atmos+eARC+HDCP to AES/EBU via Dante? (for Okta 8 etc)

[carolimagni]

Any reason you're not using eARC passthrough, i.e. using the device as a sink, as opposed to inserting it between your sources and your display? If you use eARC then presumably the HDMI revision doesn't matter because the video is not going through the link?

Personally there is no way I'm putting any of these things (AVRs or processors or anything else) between the source and the TV. Too much potential for trouble, between HDMI bottlenecks, EDID snafus, sync issues, horrible UIs etc. I've seen several setups be plagued by annoying issues like these. Their owners have sworn never to insert an AVR in the middle of the chain ever again.

To be honest, there's not a particular reason either way, I was just a bit tunnel visioned on the literal specs I suppose. It seems only the very high end units support 8K, for better or worse being in the middle of the chain. These limitations are moot if you're using eARC, yeah. I had an LG C44 OLED in the basket which has eARC.

it is frustratingly common for even premium TVs (like my Samsung OLED) to cheap out on licensing and not pass through all codecs. Why the TV even has to be licensed when it isn't doing any processing or decoding to the signal is beyond me.
View attachment 435599

That changes things for film playback. It seems like, if you don't have compatibility gremlins, pass-through might be the more compatible option then. Might impact the remote control situation though, doesn't eARC allow you to use the TV remote?

Yea I would stick with eARC and not HDMI passthrough for the very same reason. PC gsync remains intact.

I think it might be different answers for consoles vs media player devices then.

All very interesting.

 

[edechamps]

To be honest, there's not a particular reason either way, I was just a bit tunnel visioned on the literal specs I suppose. It seems only the very high end units support 8K, for better or worse being in the middle of the chain. These limitations are moot if you're using eARC, yeah. I had an LG C44 OLED in the basket which has eARC.

For your mental sanity's sake, I would strongly recommend not having anything between the source and the TV if you can avoid it. Especially if you're going to put high demands on that link like 4K120, HDR, VRR, low latency, PC (RGB) etc. It will drive you nuts. You want that link to be as direct and straightforward as possible.

That changes things for film playback. It seems like, if you don't have compatibility gremlins, pass-through might be the more compatible option then.

Thankfully you will not have this problem with the LG C4. It supports everything on eARC. There is no reason to not use eARC with a C4, as far as I'm aware, aside from the number of HDMI inputs you may need.

 

[carolimagni]

For your mental sanity's sake, I would strongly recommend not having anything between the source and the TV if you can avoid it. Especially if you're going to put high demands on that link like 4K120, HDR, VRR, low latency, PC (RGB) etc. It will drive you nuts.

I should have suspected this really, in computer world KVMs have very similar issues when you start to crank up the res/frequency/colour demands. KVMs that reliably deliver DP 1.4 specs were hard to come by for a while.

Thankfully you will not have this problem with the LG C4. It supports everything on eARC. There is no reason to not use eARC with a C4, as far as I'm aware, aside from the number of HDMI inputs you may need.

Marvellous! rtings really are great aren't they.

 

[kyuu]

I have to say that having an AVR between my PS5 and PC and the TV has presented no issues, even for 4k 120hz HDR VRR.

 

[chelgrian]

That makes it even more outrageuous that they would sell this "really dumb" 9401 for £2500…

Price for this kind of thing is to do with cost of development against expected sales and cost of development dominates over BOM. This is the same reason a Arvus H2-4D is greater than 5K despite having a BOM which will be less than a 1K consumer receiver.

The pricing for a 9401A is set to under cut buying a pro audio interface with 16 channels of AES out and a 9301B.

You are free to complain but all of this Genelec kit is designed priced and sold for the pro studio market rather than the consumer electronics market.

 

[welwynnick]

It does Atmos, Atmos cannot be transported over LPCM. Thus the unit is licensed to do the Dolby formats over HDMI and the license specifies you must be able to deal with the legacy stuff as well if you can consume Dolby MAT for Atmos.
I don’t know how many other ways I can put this. Obviously you can email the company for confirmation.

I know what you mean. Atmos has to be carried as bitstream. However, is that bitstream just passed-through with the Blustream? I hope I'm just being cynical.
I'd like to think that the Blustream SW42DA, Apantac HDMI to DANTE and NuprimeX H16-A are all what we want.
We could do with some better choice than Arvus. However I'm a bit cautious about what they actually do.
Blustream:

• HDMI output 1 replicates ... the HDMI input signal 5.1.4ch / 7.1.2ch Dolby Atmos and DTS-HD multi-channel audio
• HDMI output 2 features ... 5.1.4ch / 7.1.2ch to 2ch Dolby Atmos and DTS-HD audio downmixing
• Supports ..... Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Atmos, Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD Master Audio transmission
• HDMI audio breakout of Dolby Atmos and DTS-HD to up to 8 channels of Dante audio (7.1ch), with an independent 2 down-mixed channels of Dante audio
• HDMI audio breakout of Dolby Atmos and DTS-HD to up to 10 channels of Dante audio (7.1.2ch / 5.1.4ch)*
• HDMI audio breakout to 7.1ch balanced / unbalanced analogue audio outputs
• HDMI Dolby Atmos and DTS-HD 7.1 down-mixing to 2ch balanced and unbalanced audio outputs

Apantac:

Compact HDMI 2.0 to Dante converter
Supports Dolby ATMOS, Dolby Digital, Dolby
Digital Plus, Dolby True HD, Dolby Surround, DTS.
DTS:X (including IMAX Enhanced), MPEG-4 AAC,
MPEG-H, SONY 360RA and Auro-3D
Outputs 16 channels of Dante audio

Nuprime:

Converts HDMI audio to AES67, Dante®, and other digital formats.
Supports Dolby Atmos (up to 9.1.4) and Dolby True HD.
Supports DTS:X, DTS-HD Master Audio, and all compatible HD audio formats.

• Audio Format: PCM, up to 24-bit/192kHz
• Dolby TrueHD supports 24-bit/192kHz
• Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby Atmos support 24-bit/48kHz

They all specifically claim to be HDMI to Dante or AES67 convertors.
When comes to Atmos etc, the carefully chosen wording always says supports, replicates or breakout.
The wording is ambiguous. The decoding capability seems to be implicit rather than explicit.
Atmos decoding is a big deal, and if they did that, I think they'd be making a song and dance about it.
The JBL DSP-55 and Arvus H1D and H2-4D all specifically state that they perform Atmos decoding:

Dolby ATMOS, DTS:X, and Auro-3D Immersive Audio Decoding

DECODE / RENDER
DOLBY - Atmos®, Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Surround, Dolby Vision (passthrough) .......

This means the Blustream, Apantac and NuprimeX might just be multi-channel HDMI audio extractors like the Audiopraise VanityPro, and the Atmos support may just be pass-through, and not decoding. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[welwynnick]

According to these videos from the Blustream product manager , the SW42DA does indeed perform Atmos & DTS-X decoding:

I've asked the same question of Apantac as well.

 

[edechamps]

I'm considering using the SW42DA purely for its balanced analog audio outs, ignoring the AES67 output. Does anyone know the easiest way to get XLR/TRS out of these weird-looking analog audio terminal blocks at the back of the SW42DA? According to the specs it's a Phoenix 5-pin terminal block. Looks like 3-pin Phoenix to XLR adapters are easy to find. 5-pin to 2xXLR, not so much... looks like it may require some DIY? also, given the shape of the connector, it seems difficult to achieve continuity of shielding between the device enclosure and the cable?

 

[darth]

They all specifically claim to be HDMI to Dante or AES67 convertors.

Unless I am misunderstanding AES67 is linear PCM. So convert means it's decoding.

 

[darth]

I'm considering using the SW42DA purely for its balanced analog audio outs, ignoring the AES67 output. Does anyone know the easiest way to get XLR/TRS out of these weird-looking analog audio terminal blocks at the back of the SW42DA? According to the specs it's a Phoenix 5-pin terminal block. Looks like 3-pin Phoenix to XLR adapters are easy to find. 5-pin to 2xXLR, not so much... looks like it may require some DIY? also, given the shape of the connector, it seems difficult to achieve continuity of shielding between the device enclosure and the cable?

Maybe get it from some cable maker on eBay/Etsy/AliExpress

Or you can make your own and start a lucritive business

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1255227-REG/lectrosonics_mcphx2xlrf_adapter_cable_with_phoenix.html

 

[carolimagni]

I'm considering using the SW42DA purely for its balanced analog audio outs, ignoring the AES67 output. Does anyone know the easiest way to get XLR/TRS out of these weird-looking analog audio terminal blocks at the back of the SW42DA? According to the specs it's a Phoenix 5-pin terminal block. Looks like 3-pin Phoenix to XLR adapters are easy to find. 5-pin to 2xXLR, not so much... looks like it may require some DIY? also, given the shape of the connector, it seems difficult to achieve continuity of shielding between the device enclosure and the cable?

Is that wise? I sought to only use the digital transport elements on the Blustream given it's not intended as audiophile hardware, and there's no data on the DAC performance. I don't imagine it would be a grave step down or anything but it seems like a step backwards given the top shelf speakers you're talking about. I love that you're leaving no stone unturned though.

Unless I am misunderstanding AES67 is linear PCM. So convert means it's decoding.

I believe the same applies to Dante, it only works in PCM samples right?

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Unless I am misunderstanding AES67 is linear PCM. So convert means it's decoding.

I believe the same applies to Dante, it only works in PCM samples right?

Could be but one can run DSD over Ravenna.

 

[carolimagni]

Could be but one can run DSD over Ravenna.

That's cool, can the HAPI take in DSD over Ravenna? I'm guessing the list of DAC/AVRs that can take DSD over Ravenna is pretty small.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

That's cool, can the HAPI take in DSD over Ravenna?

Yup. OTOH, I rarely use it that way since imposition of DiracLive demands PCM.

I'm guessing the list of DAC/AVRs that can take DSD over Ravenna is pretty small.

Yup.

 

[Esprit]

I know how to do room correction myself with a parametric EQ such as miniDSP.

GLM does not only equalize but also temporarily aligns the speakers (and much more)

 

[edechamps]

Is that wise? I sought to only use the digital transport elements on the Blustream given it's not intended as audiophile hardware, and there's no data on the DAC performance.

I think it would be interesting if @amirm measured the DAC performance of the SW42DA, given that as far as I know it's the cheapest way to convert multichannel Dolby/DTS HDMI directly to balanced analog (the only alternative I know of, the Marantz AV10, is 5 times more expensive). I do plan on measuring it myself if I get the chance. My analyzer, a QuantAsylum QA403, is nowhere near Amir level but it is definitely enough to tell if a DAC is garbage.

I still have not ruled out the idea of going full digital GLM with a SW42DA+9401, but the additional £2k that would cost me compared to a SW42DA+miniDSP solution is quite the pill to swallow. Actually it would cost me even more than £2k because it would force me to use a Genelec subwoofer which is more expensive.

 

[welwynnick]

Unless I am misunderstanding AES67 is linear PCM. So convert means it's decoding.
View attachment 435729View attachment 435730

I know what Dante and AES67 do. Have a read of all of this if you're in any doubt.
I was suspicious about the wording of the marketing material for the Blustream, Apantac and Nuprime devices.
Conversion could mean that LPCM audio on HDMI is converted to LPCM audio on Dante or AES67, which is not what we want here.
However, the Blustream video I linked above was explicit - the SW42DA does perform Atmos decoding. However it can only output up to 5.1.4 or 7.1.2 audio.
Thomas Tang at Apantac just got back to me directly and confirmed that their HDMI to Dante convertor also does do Atmos decoding (but is currently limited to 7.1.4).
Looking at the picture of the mainboard , the Nuprime H16A has an Analogue Devices SHARC processor that looks rather like the ADSP21473 that's used for Atmos decoding by some recent AVRs & AVPs. However the website Key Features section says Atmos is limited to 9.1.4, even though the H16A is clearly intended to be a 16 channel device.
Therefore I think Blustream, Apantac and Nuprime all do Atmos decoding, but we need to understand the limitations.
For example, do they decode Atmos from streaming services where the audio is lossy compressed Dolby Digital+, or lossless Dolby TrueHD from Bluray discs as well?
My feeling is that the NuprimeX is probably what a lot of us have been waiting for, though we may need a few software iterations yet.

 

[welwynnick]

Can add the https://www.blustream-us.com/hdmi-switchers-sw42da to the list

Here's an update to the list with the Apantac, AudioControl, Blustream and Nuprime added:

Interestingly, the AudioControl X7S and X9S are now listed as discontinued. Presumably the APR-16 and DPR-16 will replace them.

 

[kandamrgam]

Here's an update to the list with the Apantac, AudioControl, Blustream and Nuprime added:

View attachment 436339

Interestingly, the AudioControl X7S and X9S are now listed as discontinued. Presumably the APR-16 and DPR-16 will replace them.

Thank you for compiling, it's a goldmine for people who are in need of this!

I am sad AudioControl discontinued them because that means DPR-16 will be yet another bloated analog + digital, overengineered device, how else will they charge the $$$$

 

[welwynnick]

Thank you for compiling, it's a goldmine for people who are in need of this!

I am sad AudioControl discontinued them because that means DPR-16 will be yet another bloated analog + digital, overengineered device, how else will they charge the $$$$

I think the APR-16 will have analogue outputs only, and the DPR will have digital outputs only, which is ideal.

All the other AV processors have both analogue + digital, and the analogue side is redundant and expensive. The exception is the Storm Evo, but that's still expensive!