Possible disappointment with new setup?

[muteki]

Hi,

I am considering upgrading my stereo setup that is exclusively used to listen to vinyl. What I have currently is a beginner setup that got me into the hobby:
-Rega Planar 1 (upgraded with an elliptical needle)
-Triangle Elara LN01A
-Pro-Ject Phono Box E

I've never been satisfied with the sound from the Triangle active speakers: It's muddy, not detailed, lacks soundstage. Normal for that kind of speaker and that's the reason to upgrade now.

The room is obviously a big issue here. It's a non-dedicated ~25m2 room with a large window, paintings on the walls, a rug on the floor and a massive table. I can't really treat the room, apart from maybe very light and basic stuff (WAF and aesthetics).

Last week, I was able to listen to Whaferdale Lintons + Leak 130 in a perfect environment (listening room in a hifi store). I was instantly sold on that setup, but after having had a couple of listening sessions at home and questioning the room acoustics, I am quite worried to be disappointed in a more than 3000$ (Norwegian prices) setup because the room is less than optimal.

What are your thoughts?
Should I aim at a maybe less ambitious setup? I know that the room is key here, but maybe the is room for improvement in the equipment, that will give a noticeable upgrade, with the room acoustics constraints that I have.

Any tips welcome

 

[TheZebraKilledDarwin]

If you want to spend money wisely, it's good if you understand the physical relations:
The room makes the sound, not the speakers.

The material and the surface structure of the ceiling and walls is what?

 

[VMAT4]

If you want to spend money wisely, it's good if you understand the physical relations:
The room makes the sound, not the speakers.

The material and the surface structure of the ceiling and walls is what?

Yep. The room is the most important "component".

 

[bluefuzz]

What are your thoughts?

Regardless of what type of speakers you have if you are unable to do physical room treatment then digital room correction, e.g. Dirac Live, is a good second best. Otherwise your only options are to sit closer to the speakers so the room doesn't have so much relative influence or get yourself some good headphones ...

 

[JeremyFife]

Agree: if you can't treat your room then take a look at adding DSP. WiiM Pro Plus (easy to use) or a miniDSP 2x4HD are options.
Having said that, room 'treatment' includes simple stuff like speaker positioning so do experiment.

One question, you said that you'd upgraded your stylus but what cartridge are you using? Some of the Rega carts have issues and it might actually be worth a change.

 

[Galliardist]

Firstly, don't just swallow the vinyl is best stuff. Sort the rest of your system out with a digital source, and then bring the vinyl back into it. Even if your end point is only listening to vinyl,, the variations in vinyl playback may mean you struggle with a particular turntable combination. While we're on the subject, how is the Rega sited? There may be reason to worry about feedback, since you describe your sound as muddy.

Secondly, can you give us a diagram of the current room layout and the limitations to what you can move? With well measuring loudspeakers, in a domestic environment, you don't have to be perfect to be good.

 

[Mart68]

Some pictures of the room will beat a 1000 words.

Sometimes it doesn't take much to turn bad into good.

There's ways to passively treat a room without affecting the WAF.

 

[Joe Smith]

Easiest thing IMO is to carefully position your speakers so there is a fairly nearfield sweet spot (couch/chair) where you'll do the majority of your focused listening. I don't use DSP as most of my careful listening is in my workroom nearfield system and my other setups in the house are used for more casual/ambient listening for the most part.

 

[DVDdoug]

Do you have any kind of equalizer/equalization? Have you played around with the tone controls? With a computer or digital source EQ can be free and you can experiment with it. With parametric EQ you can probably find and knock-down the offending bass resonances without messing-up the rest of the bass.

Probably the next step might be to get calibrated measurement microphone (about $100 USD) and REW (free) to measure/diagnose the room.

Then you can think about what you might want to do about it. Acoustic treatment for bass (bass traps) usually isn't practical. Bass traps are large and you need more than one. Note that bass traps trap the reflected bass to reduce standing waves and that boosts the dips and reduces the peaks.

With a computer or smart phone EQ can be done in software.

For analog or other "traditional" sources, there are audio/video receivers with DIRAC or other room correction. They come with a microphone and they also do their own measurements. That's usually the simplest and most economical solution. Or as JeremyFife suggested, the MiniDSP is also popular around here.

I'll also reiterate that vinyl is technically inferior but it's probably not the reason your sound is "muddy", and I'm sure you've also listened to some digital sources.

setup because the room is less than optimal.

Most of us have "less than optimal" rooms.

lacks soundstage

Soundstage is obviously an illusion, since the sound is coming out of the speakers. So your brain is involved, room acoustics, and to some extent the speaker. But Floyd Toole says:

The important localization and soundstage information is the responsibility of the recording engineer, not the loudspeaker.

Personally, I just enjoy whatever "stereo image" is there and otherwise don't pay much attention to it. And I mostly listen to rock where any "soundstage" is created artificially by the mixing engineer. (And then the mastering engineer fouls it up with compression.)

 

[muteki]

Hi,
Thanks for all the comments and feedback.
I'll try to give as much info as possible about the room. First of all check the attached floor plan, which should give a better overview of size and furniture that is in the way.
-The walls and ceiling are drywall (plaster) and the ceiling height is 310cm
-The cartridge I am using on the Planar 1 is the original one Rega Carbon MM, the new stylus is a Tonar 974-DE (elliptical)
-The table in the middle is 75cm high

I hope this helps, just ask if you need more info and thanks again!

 

[Joe Smith]

So the immediate thing that comes to mind, looking at the diagram, is the relative height of your speaker drivers in front of the table, projecting over to the listening position (chair?). If the speakers and your chair are low relative to the table, you're getting less than ideal sound wave projection from the speakers to your ears...

You might experiment with the height and placement of your current speakers and see what difference that makes to your ears, before you invest in new equipment?

 

[Duke]

It's muddy, not detailed, lacks soundstage. Normal for that kind of speaker and that's the reason to upgrade now.

Those are both symptoms of the first reflections arriving too early and being too strong.

You might look into speakers with narrower radiation patterns, and position them to minimize the strength and maximize the delay of the first reflections.

 

[muteki]

You might experiment with the height and placement of your current speakers and see what difference that makes to your ears, before you invest in new equipment?

I just tested by raising the speakers I have above the table... If anything, it made me hate the sound I get from the Triangle's even more Too bassy, no detail at all, not really enjoyable.
But yes, the sound projection was as expected more above the table than before.

 

[Joe Smith]

The first review I find for the Elara speakers says "Overstated bass" at the top of the cons list. So, yeah...

Wondering...do you have friends with any alternate speakers you can try in the actual space?

The equipment you mentioned above is very first rate, if you have the budget for that, it will probably result in improved sound, as long as you are careful about speaker placement/height relative to the table. Could you have improved sound for less? Probably, but the aesthetics of the Wharfedales and Linn amp are also factors. And good stuff that you can live with and enjoy for a long while.

The other tweak would be to play with the angle of the speakers coming off the wall they are on. Your diagram shows them as straight on, are they that way or toed in towards the listening position? Straight on placement could be making the reflected sound worse in the room.

 

[Timcognito]

So we talked about the room in detail but there are many adjustments to your turntable. Once it is level move on to the arm and cartridge alignment, tracking angle, down force, anti-skate, etc. There many guides on the internet. Make sure all is well there first. The old garbage in = garbage out.

 

[muteki]

The other tweak would be to play with the angle of the speakers coming off the wall they are on. Your diagram shows them as straight on, are they that way or toed in towards the listening position? Straight on placement could be making the reflected sound worse in the room.

Thanks again for all your input.
The Elara's have been angled since the beginning towards the listening position.

So we talked about the room in detail but there are many adjustments to your turntable. Once it is level move on to the arm and cartridge alignment, tracking angle, down force, anti-skate, etc. There many guides on the internet. Make sure all is well there first. The old garbage in = garbage out.

I have a Rega Planar 1, and while I am aware of its limitations, it is supposed to be a simple TT without adjustments.
Quoting Rega's website:
"New bias assembly and integrated arm clip. Includes automatic bias adjustment negating the need for the user to set bias, making this the most ‘plug & play’ turntable we have ever manufactured."


I'll be going for a listening session at the hifi store tomorrow to test another setup: Acoustic Energy AE309 + Rega Brio
This is a 1800 USD setup (compared to the 3000 USD for the Lintons + Leak 130).
We'll see, I am trying to find a compromise and really trying not to be disappointed, which would be a shame with a 3000 USD setup.

 

[Thomas_A]

You will probably have problems peaks and nulls in the bass at your listening seat, which will muddy the sound. A PEQ is needed to bring down those peaks. Measure and fix that first.

 

[muteki]

Thanks for the input.
If I understand correctly in order to better understand the room, I should get an UMIK-1 and measure before anything else.
Maybe take those results to a hifi store in order to see what my options are...

 

[Timcognito]

Thanks again for all your input.
The Elara's have been angled since the beginning towards the listening position.


I have a Rega Planar 1, and while I am aware of its limitations, it is supposed to be a simple TT without adjustments.
Quoting Rega's website:
"New bias assembly and integrated arm clip. Includes automatic bias adjustment negating the need for the user to set bias, making this the most ‘plug & play’ turntable we have ever manufactured."


I'll be going for a listening session at the hifi store tomorrow to test another setup: Acoustic Energy AE309 + Rega Brio
This is a 1800 USD setup (compared to the 3000 USD for the Lintons + Leak 130).
We'll see, I am trying to find a compromise and really trying not to be disappointed, which would be a shame with a 3000 USD setup.

Try a streaming source; WiiM has a nice streamer for $80 just to make sure. Qobuz and Tidal have CD quality and one month free trials. I have Rega arm on my VPI TT and Rega makes good stuff, but TT can be finicky. Just make sure it is not source of the problem.

 

[muteki]

So... Wiim or Umik-1 before moving on?