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[POLL] Fun Theoretical Question

The majority of people would buy:

  • [Speaker A]

    Votes: 40 67.8%
  • [Speaker B]

    Votes: 19 32.2%

  • Total voters
    59
I would try more speakers picking A or B will bring on server buyers remorse. Two of anything is never enough as one is forced to one or the other. Start with four and narrow it down to two. That is the same but better scenario. Also probably more than one test, test day and sleep on it time.
 
assume this is in a parallel universe where such things
I can count several parallel universes for low frequencies: regular equalized bass, directional *BA bass, dipole bass, stereo bass a la Grisenger... and regular home bass with peaks and dips. And another regular home 80-100Hz bass without bass at lower frequencies..
 
How meritorious are those who don't know what a speaker is for, those who go "by feel"?
Pretty sure speakers can have different purposes for different prospective goals, with the most common use being to enjoy listening to sound. If someone enjoys listening to something that doesn't conform exactly to academic neutrality, more power to them.

I know I have speakers that fall into both categories and thoroughly enjoy them both for their respective use cases of dynamic, distortionless home theater that sounds like what I hear in a theater (not academically neutral) and desktop near field (my chosen speakers are pretty flat).
 
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Pretty sure speakers can have different purposes for different prospective goals, with the most common use being to enjoy listening to sound. If someone enjoys listening to something that doesn't conform exactly to academic neutrality, more power to them.

I know I have speakers that fall into both categories and thoroughly enjoy them both for their respective use cases of dynamic, distortionless home theater that sounds like what I hear in a theater (not academically neutral) and desktop near field (my chosen speakers are pretty flat).
How do you know that, did you measure? :)
 
How do you know that, did you measure? :)
Measure my basement PSA HT setup (and the JBLs before that, and the Revels before that, and the other Revels before that...)? Yes, with REW. My desk nearfield speakers? No, but the speakers are Sierra LXs and they are about 18 inches from my ears so I'm pretty comfortable assuming that they sound like the known spins.
 
In the case of a bass heavy listening experience, can you tell if it's the recording, the speaker, or the room just by listening?
For judging speakers, I primarily use one recording that I am very familiar with: the 1978 Telarc Firebird. The recording engineers provided notes as to what to listen for (see attached pdf).

I have heard this recording on many speakers in many rooms, so I think that I have good idea of what is on the recording. And I have heard many symphony orchestras in many halls, so I think that I have a good idea of what the sound should be like.

In my room, I don't care about separating the room from the speakers, because they will function together.
 

Attachments

For judging speakers, I primarily use one recording that I am very familiar with: the 1978 Telarc Firebird. The recording engineers provided notes as to what to listen for (see attached pdf).

I have heard this recording on many speakers in many rooms, so I think that I have good idea of what is on the recording. And I have heard many symphony orchestras in many halls, so I think that I have a good idea of what the sound should be like.

In my room, I don't care about separating the room from the speakers, because they will function together.
Have you checked if the orchestra is in tune? If so, how - using a pitch fork or an electronic tuner? Do you read the notes - is everything played correctly? Have you followed the dynamics on the scores? How do you know if what is on the recording is what should be on the recording?
And finally -- are you kidding me? :)
 
'A' is always the right answer because in this hypothetical situation Amir's assertion that when it comes to speakers what is measured and what is heard being about 60% to 80% accurate has come into effect. This is not a DAC.
Also, Olive says that any scores within 1 point are indistinguishable. Scores better, yet meaningless.
'A' sounds better than 'B' simply because it is better than 'B'. If you heard it for yourself what more proof do you need?
 
The majority of people would buy speakers A.

Why would you buy speakers you didn't like as much as another pair even if your oscilloscope said they were 'better'? This all sounds like the 1980s turntable market in the UK where people bought Linn LP12s because they were told they were better even though they preferred another turntable.
 
This all sounds like the 1980s turntable market in the UK where people bought Linn LP12s because they were told they were better even though they preferred another turntable.

I never heard that before;
Interesting!

I remember the Linn LP12 but didn't know it was sold in that way.
 
This all sounds like the 1980s turntable market in the UK where people bought Linn LP12s because they were told they were better even though they preferred another turntable.
Wrong! Linn LP12 was better than majority of the turntables because of better rejection of airborne and direct mechanical vibrations, courtesy of its floating construction - there was comparative measurement review in one old British hi-fi magazine, many years ago. I think it was "Hi-Fi for pleasure" magazine.
 
He owns Salon2's and was still impressed by the 4329P?!
Wow!
Seeing that the JBL is a horn speaker with very well controlled directivity, especially compared to that Revel, I'd say that the choice between them is easy.

On topic I'm sure that people would in general pick speaker A since that's the easy way out. Personally I'd probably pick B and then EQ that to taste.
 
Seeing that the JBL is a horn speaker with very well controlled directivity, especially compared to that Revel, I'd say that the choice between them is easy.

On topic I'm sure that people would in general pick speaker A since that's the easy way out. Personally I'd probably pick B and then EQ that to taste.

So, a well built horn speaker is always better than something without a horn?
 
So, a well built horn speaker is always better than something without a horn?
Not necessarily for all people no. I haven't personally really listened to these kind of horns in a home setting, but from what I've read people really seem to like the imagine and soundstage they present. And again compared to the revel that seem to have a quite beamy upper range compared to the rest of it's frequency response this might give a worse impression. Of course they interact more with the room, but will in turn give a more diffused and indirect sound, which of course some might like and some might not. My guess is that Olive likes the way horns do it :)
 
Not necessarily for all people no. I haven't personally really listened to these kind of horns in a home setting, but from what I've read people really seem to like the imagine and soundstage they present. And again compared to the revel that seem to have a quite beamy upper range compared to the rest of it's frequency response this might give a worse impression. Of course they interact more with the room, but will in turn give a more diffused and indirect sound, which of course some might like and some might not. My guess is that Olive likes the way horns do it :)

Very cool - thank you for that!
How deep does a waveguide need to be to be called a horn?
 
I'm sure that people would in general pick speaker A since that's the easy way out. Personally I'd probably pick B and then EQ that to taste.
Two comments:

First, in my experience, "EQ to taste" is not an easy task. I have tried to do this with specific recordings that sound "off" to me, but finding the center frequency, amplitude, and width of a PEQ filter (or worse: filters) that "fix" the issue has proven to be essentially impossible.

Second, the reason Speaker A sounds better may have to do with its directivity. There is the general issue of wide vs narrow, but also certain directivity changes with frequency may work better in specific rooms. And different directivity cannot be fixed with EQ.
 
Very cool - thank you for that!
How deep does a waveguide need to be to be called a horn?
Afaik there is a difference between a waveguide and a horn, something to do with acoustical impedance, but I'm not the right guy to answer that :)
Two comments:

First, in my experience, "EQ to taste" is not an easy task. I have tried to do this with specific recordings that sound "off" to me, but finding the center frequency, amplitude, and width of a PEQ filter (or worse: filters) that "fix" the issue has proven to be essentially impossible.

Second, the reason Speaker A sounds better may have to do with its directivity. There is the general issue of wide vs narrow, but also certain directivity changes with frequency may work better in specific rooms. And different directivity cannot be fixed with EQ.
I do it all the time, though since I've done it for so many years I'm pretty sure what I want and can get there quite easily.

And yes of course directivity can differ (and lots of other things not related to the speakers), I just assumed that the theoretical better measured one would have well controlled one at around +/-50 degrees (or maybe lower than that seeing I was just talking about horns) over most of the range, while bad one would have the same on average but way more all over the place but unequlized in a typical room it would have a subjectively nicer frequency response. So then the objectively better one should be easier to EQ and hopefully sound even better with a more fun FR and its more controlled dispersion.
 
How deep does a waveguide need to be to be called a horn?

It's not a matter of depth, although in practice horns are usually deeper than waveguides.

"All waveguides are horns, but not all horns are waveguides" - Earl Geddes. Earl was, to the best of my knowledge, the first to use the term "waveguide" to describe a particular type of horn. And he designed imo superb waveguides.

My understanding is that a "waveguide" is a constant-directivity horn which does not use diffraction or vanes in order to achieve its constant directivity. In practice, a waveguide usually has much of its curvature way down in the throat, such that the curvature to transition from the compression driver's exit to the constant coverage angle of the walls of the waveguide happens very quickly. In contrast, most non-diffraction horns (exponential, tractrix, hyperbolic, spherical, L'Cleach, etc.) start out pretty much straight-sided at the throat and gradually widen towards the mouth, sort of like a trumpet.

At the risk of oversimplifying:

The main purpose of a waveguide (or we might call it a "waveguide-style horn") is to get constant-directivity behavior without any of the downsides of diffractive features or vanes. A waveguide's pattern is pretty much constant across the frequency spectrum (although in practice the pattern often narrows in the top octave as the driver itself starts beaming into a narrower angle than the angle of the walls). As the waveguide "funnels" all of the driver's output into a constant angle, the resulting frequency response is downward-sloping, so equalization is necessary. However once the on-axis response has been equalized, so has the off-axis response.

The main purpose of a non-diffraction horn is acoustic amplification by optimizing the acoustical impedance match between the driver and the air in the room, again kinda like a trumpet. Horns typically have a better low-end than waveguides, and typically have a higher efficiency, particularly on-axis. Horn crossovers tend to be simpler, because the on-axis response starts out approximately "flat". But the radiation pattern is narrow at the top end, gradually widening as we go down in frequency.

Diffraction horns combine some of the attributes of both, and often have good pattern control, putting the sound right where the designer wants it. But the trade-off is that diffractive features (slots and/or abrupt angles) introduce diffraction, and this diffraction tends to become increasingly audible and objectionable as the SPL increases. If you've ever heard prosound speakers that sounded harsh maybe you thought the drivers were being driven into distortion, but probably not - what you were probably hearing was the effects of diffraction.

I don't know much about the horns with vanes, but I think the shape of the vanes themselves are a way of combining a target expansion curve (exponential, hyperbolic, etc.) with relatively uniform coverage within the pattern width.

The reason why most waveguides are shallow is this: If a designer adopts "constant directivity" as a design goal, then they do not want a big directivity mis-match where the midwoofer or cone midrange crosses over to the waveguide. So they will design the waveguide such that its coverage pattern approximately matches that of the midwoofer or midrange in the crossover region, and then that same pattern is maintained from there on up. In practice you want to cross over your midwoofer or cone midrange well below its breakup peaks, so you end up crossing over where its pattern is still fairly wide (at least, wide compared to most horns). And in order to not have a directivity mis-match in that crossover region, the waveguide needs to have a similar pattern width. Waveguide pattern width corresponds with the angle of the walls, and a wide angle results in a shallow shape.

It is of course theoretically possible to make a truly narrow-pattern waveguide, but then you gotta deal with the radiation pattern width at the top-end of whatever is covering the region below that waveguide.
 
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I'm inclined toward speaker A, so long as its measurements are very good without glaring faults - even if not quite as good as B. That would tell me the differences I'm hearing may be related to aspects of the speakers not included in the measurements. Otherwise (if A has glaring faults) any differences I hear may be flaws that happen to be euphonic, which means my preference is likely to be transitory or music genre-specific.
 
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