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Poll for Topping PA5 owners only please.

Is your Topping PA5 amp defective?

  • Yes

    Votes: 123 50.0%
  • No

    Votes: 123 50.0%

  • Total voters
    246

restorer-john

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More I was curious about the turn off before unplugging statement.

Competently designed amplifiers have had AC sense (via a tap to a LV winding on the power transformer/supply) for at least 50 years. Within a few cycles of AC power being removed, the amplifier would cut/mute the speakers and disconnect the load. A BTL/bridged amplifier is no different in that regard.

This is an external SMPS powered unit where the amplifier has no control over the PSU shutdown. You pull the plug and the SMPS rail voltage will collapse. The amplifier will likely behave in an unpredictable way as that happens. It has no physical relay protection either, it relies on the on-chip protection. Pretty sure there is/was an unused pin on the power plug/socket which could have been used to trigger a PSU enable on the dedicated SMPS- that would have gone a long way to avoiding the switch-on/off issues.
 
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tvih

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The thing is that we do know that repeatedly power cycling these little brick supplies will eventually kill them. You just need to take one apart and see the rectifier diodes to know that it's not going to live forever if you're turning the AC on and off all the time. We aren't talking about instant death ... it generally reduces the brick's lifetime from 5 or 6 years to something like a year.

This is not specific to the PA5 .... this is a well known issue with ALL power bricks.
Haven't caught up with the rest of the thread, but I found this a bit funny anecdotally since I have NEVER had a power brick fail. Off the top of my head the oldest current ones might be a laptop from 2008 that recently broke down otherwise, but brick still works fine - and also the Topping TP30 tripath amp from 2010. I actually thought a couple of years ago that the TP30's brick did fail and already ordered a new one... but it turned out it was the power CABLE that suddenly didn't work. Gotta say that was a first. So at least I now have a spare brick if it does fail. Not sure if wall warts are supposed to be similarly failure-prone, but I reckon I still have some of those that are even older than the two bricks above. Can't recall if I ever had any failed ones, though.

Worth mentioning I don't turn the AC power off in more than some rare occasions, but regardless 5-6 years seems short to me with or without cycling.
 

terrys999

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Would leaving pa5 brick on all time be advantageous Is it safe to do so?
Would power cycling reduce its life?
 

RandomEar

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Haven't caught up with the rest of the thread, but I found this a bit funny anecdotally since I have NEVER had a power brick fail. Off the top of my head the oldest current ones might be a laptop from 2008 that recently broke down otherwise, but brick still works fine - and also the Topping TP30 tripath amp from 2010. I actually thought a couple of years ago that the TP30's brick did fail and already ordered a new one... but it turned out it was the power CABLE that suddenly didn't work. Gotta say that was a first. So at least I now have a spare brick if it does fail. Not sure if wall warts are supposed to be similarly failure-prone, but I reckon I still have some of those that are even older than the two bricks above. Can't recall if I ever had any failed ones, though.

Worth mentioning I don't turn the AC power off in more than some rare occasions, but regardless 5-6 years seems short to me with or without cycling.
Yeah, a year sounds ridiculously short. I've had my PC and printer (->both have an SMPS inside) on a switched power strip for >10 years. They. Just. Work. Phone charger: 4+ years of daily plugging/unplugging. Just works. For a couple of years, I had my router on a timer and turned it off over night: Worked fine for as long as this was going on. I had one single 8-10 year old wall wart for an old router fail once, but really... at that age, I wasn't surprised.

Not saying repeated unplugging doesn't potentially shorten the life span of some SMPS under some circumstances. Maybe it's more problematic for power bricks which are coupled to devices with fat storage caps. But from the random sample I have drawn, I'm not that worried.
 

restorer-john

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@amirm is imo realy a nice and great person. But looking into future, is even for him very hard to do. Knowing that there will be a quality problem in the future is a very hard task.

How about simply commenting on the present? After all, this piece of junk has only been in the market for 7-8 months...
 

REK2575

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I don't think it's too much to ask that Amir add a brief 'update' to the PA5 review. Here, I'll write it for him:

UPDATE: ASR readers and potential buyers of the PA5 may be interested to know that there is an ongoing conversation in these forums about the reliability of the PA5: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...oll-for-topping-pa5-owners-only-please.33293/. ASR cannot corroborate reports of unit failures and will not attempt to do so. There are plenty of reports from satisfied users who are experiencing no problems with the PA5. As with any product that ASR reviews, purchasers must make their own informed decisions. As in all cases: caveat emptor.

There! free of charge.
 

mdsimon2

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Things that are generally bad ideas (and were known to be bad ideas before the PA5 release):

1) Purchasing a brand new product with no history of long term reliability
2) Making a purchase decision based on a review only without seeking out actual owner feedback
3) Expecting good support from Topping if an issue arises

IMO considering the above no need for disclaimers on reviews.

Michael
 

tvih

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Well, hard to establish long term reliability if no one buys the thing ;) But you're right that it's very important to check out the user experiences. And indeed if at all possible buy from a vendor that doesn't require sending the device overseas if it has a problem! While I'm most likely skipping the PA5 despite contemplating it earlier (and indeed these discussions certainly play a part in that - prior to yesterday I had somehow missed this poll thread and hadn't realized how widespread the issue apparently is), any Topping purchases I make will be from a domestic retailer who is obligated to handle warranty cases. I try to do this whenever possible in general and not just audio - long term reliability being uncertain isn't quite so bad when you have reliable warranty to fall back on.
 

vitalii427

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Using my PA5 pretty intensively since August December 2021 in TV setup. Just found this thread and surprised by the poll results and a little bit worried. Mine PA5 is perfectly fine till now and hope it will continue to work well for years
 
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Paco De Lucia

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Had mine running almost every day for six months, no problems so far
 

igfarm

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My PA5 has been running for 3 months, and nothing to report except it works. Will report again at the 6 month mark (if I remember) or sooner if something worthy of mention.
 

threni

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Yes, agreed. Way outside of the scope of ASR. In fact, ASR has active threads on product reliability like this one. I don't see those on other review forums or manufacturer's forums so ASR and Amir should get some credit for the platform supporting quality.

The Topping rep is indeed the issue. Won't even respond to PM's I sent him. And, the resellers are hopeless and have no idea how to provide customer service on the product they sell. Stuff breaks, and when it does the contrast between good and bad companies is clear.
He's not a rep though, is he? Not a representative of the company on this forum. Just a forum user, like you or I, who happens to work for Topping. He's declared himself as such. He doesn't have to answer any particular question if he doesn't feel like it. In most countries you have a contract with the retailer of a product - if you have a problem, take it up with them, not the manufacturer, or the first person you find on an internet forum. That's not how it works. Why would he want to spend his spare time answering angry PMs/posts about faulty products? Sounds a little boring and unrewarding to me. What would his response be? Apologize? Pledge to build better products in the future? Call a meeting with his colleagues? Get involved with the return? He's an engineer, not customer services.

Same goes for Amir. Criticisms that the reviews don't have disclaimers about long term testing! He gets borrowed kit to test and return. Why would he want to hang onto it for weeks/months to test again and again, for free? That sounds boring too! And would probably make people think again before sending their kit to him! Which other site/magazine does this, for free? For any cost, even? What would you hope to discover going this? Individual failures or design faults? Suppose he wasn't one of the minority of people with a faulty amp - how would this intensive testing period have helped prevent people from getting a faulty one? 99% of the time nothing will happen over time, and if he did find a problem presumably he'd need to get another unit and start testing over again. Maybe he should not publish a review until he's tested in parallel 20 units and confirmed they all measure indentically for a number of months.

I think this site is perfect the way it is. You read the review to decide if kit is audibly acceptable, then trawl the comments here and elsewhere for subjective feedback from the great unwashed and try and piece together information about retailers complaint handling, country of origin, recent problems with this and other units etc. Like you would any other item you buy.
 
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MAB

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He's not a rep though, is he? Not a representative of the company on this forum. Just a forum user, like you or I, who happens to work for Topping. He's declared himself as such.
I'm confused. His profile indicates he is a Manufacturer:
He sure posts like one too! He provides info and perspective that only a Manufacturer has. Amir has stated that Topping and other manufacturers have leveraged his measurements to improve their products through active participation. Maybe there is an angle I am not clear on, but to me he is all that. I'm happy that he and his company are making money, even better through interactions with this forum. He is a rep.
He doesn't have to answer any particular question if he doesn't feel like it. In most countries you have a contract with the retailer of a product - if you have a problem, take it up with them, not the manufacturer, or the first person you find on an internet forum. That's not how it works.
Agreed that he needs to be careful in how he answers on forums, because he is a manufacturer. He's here in an official capacity, like it or not! So, people have correctly pointed out that he is working one side of the business while there is a small dumpster fire in another aspect of his business that he is ignoring. Perhaps we are missing each other's point... My point here is he has leveraged ASR to win the SINAD race, and produce some really high performing parts. There is a community of experts and customers who are noticing problems outside of performance.
Why would he want to spend his spare time answering angry PMs/posts about faulty products? Sounds a little boring and unrewarding to me. What would his response be? Apologize? Pledge to build better products in the future? Call a meeting with his colleagues? Get involved with the return? He's an engineer, not customer services.
I'm an engineer for a multinational company. I am required to follow rules, like state that I am a manufacturer when interacting on social media regarding our products or business. Along with that are the meetings with colleagues, difficult interactions with customers, etc. Boring may be one way to characterize this, but once you wade into the waters customers have reasonable expectations. And, he is here to make money, not to have fun! I am pretty sure he is not here because he is bored with his day job and needs a social outlet with other audio nerds... Or maybe he does!

I'm actually not looking for an apology. But I absolutely am looking for indications that Topping is going to build better products in the future, specifically quality and reliability in this instance.

I agree with the rest, ASR is fine as is. People who want some sort of quality/reliability suite of tests are naïve in what would really be required, and Amir has clearly stated what the site goals are.
Same goes for Amir. Criticisms that the reviews don't have disclaimers about long term testing! He gets borrowed kit to test and return. Why would he want to hang onto it for weeks/months to test again and again, for free? That sounds boring too! And would probably make people think again before sending their kit to him! Which other site/magazine does this, for free? For any cost, even? What would you hope to discover going this? Individual failures or design faults? Suppose he wasn't one of the minority of people with a faulty amp - how that this intensive testing period helped prevent people from getting a faulty one? 99% of the time nothing will happen over time, and if he has a problem presumably he'd need to get another unit and start testing over again. Maybe he should not publish a review until he's tested in parallel 20 units and confirmed they all measure indentically for a number of months.

I think this site is perfect the way it is. You read the review to decide if kit is audibly acceptable, then trawl the comments here and elsewhere for subjective feedback from the great unwashed and try and piece together information about retailers complaint handling, country of origin, recent problems with this and other units etc. Like you would any other item you buy.
 

threni

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I'm confused. His profile indicates he is a Manufacturer:
He sure posts like one too! He provides info and perspective that only a Manufacturer has. Amir has stated that Topping and other manufacturers have leveraged his measurements to improve their products through active participation. Maybe there is an angle I am not clear on, but to me he is all that. I'm happy that he and his company are making money, even better through interactions with this forum. He is a rep.

Agreed that he needs to be careful in how he answers on forums, because he is a manufacturer. He's here in an official capacity, like it or not! So, people have correctly pointed out that he is working one side of the business while there is a small dumpster fire in another aspect of his business that he is ignoring. Perhaps we are missing each other's point... My point here is he has leveraged ASR to win the SINAD race, and produce some really high performing parts. There is a community of experts and customers who are noticing problems outside of performance.

I'm an engineer for a multinational company. I am required to follow rules, like state that I am a manufacturer when interacting on social media regarding our products or business. Along with that are the meetings with colleagues, difficult interactions with customers, etc. Boring may be one way to characterize this, but once you wade into the waters customers have reasonable expectations. And, he is here to make money, not to have fun! I am pretty sure he is not here because he is bored with his day job and needs a social outlet with other audio nerds... Or maybe he does!

I'm actually not looking for an apology. But I absolutely am looking for indications that Topping is going to build better products in the future, specifically quality and reliability in this instance.

I agree with the rest, ASR is fine as is. People who want some sort of quality/reliability suite of tests are naïve in what would really be required, and Amir has clearly stated what the site goals are.
No confusion. He's an engineer who works for a manufacturer. (Yes, a manufactrer which makes money. Don't they all? At least, they all try to!) But as far as I know he's not officially representing the company here. Sometimes online you see people posting "all opinions my own" disclaimers. Well, I've not see him do that but it's my assumption that is the case anyway. This is an internet forum - I'd not assume I was getting any sort of service from anyone as it's...an internet forum. No money changes hands; no contracts exchanged. He's not promising anything on the companies behalf. He's not here in an official capacity. At least, I don't see him stating as such - just that he works for one. Maybe i'm wrong. But I see those as two different things. Damned if you do, damned if you don't; I'm sure if he hadn't done that someone would find an angle; how unprofessional it was for Topping to employ "online spies" or whatever.
No idea what you mean about Topping leveraging ASR - Topping seem to have their own kit for measuring SINAD etc. It's hard to see that high performance regarding measurements is necessarily at the expense of reliability. I'm not sure there is a problem Topping has to solve. Much of the stuff I've bought over the last few years has for some people caused a problem to the point where my pre-purchase research has almost put me off buying it, but where subsequently I've had no problems at all. People don't tend to go online and say "I bought this amp and it works". As far as I know there was a fault in the design of the L30 which has been remedied. It damaged some headphones just like a Schiit amp did back in the day. As far as I know no more Schiit amps have done this, and neither have any other Topping amps. I'm a software guy so I don't know why this sort of thing happens....wait, what am I talking about? If it's anything like software I know exactly why it happens!
 

sarumbear

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How about simply commenting on the present? After all, this piece of junk has only been in the market for 7-8 months...
In normal circumstances I would cringe when read your words but when a third of the owners voted as the amplifier has a fault in such a short period of time it is hard to argue with the adjective. Even if half of the votes are not representative, 15% faulty within less than a year of shipping is a very bad number.
 

MAB

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No confusion. He's an engineer who works for a manufacturer. (Yes, a manufactrer which makes money. Don't they all? At least, they all try to!) But as far as I know he's not officially representing the company here. Sometimes online you see people posting "all opinions my own" disclaimers. Well, I've not see him do that but it's my assumption that is the case anyway. This is an internet forum - I'd not assume I was getting any sort of service from anyone as it's...an internet forum. No money changes hands; no contracts exchanged. He's not promising anything on the companies behalf. He's not here in an official capacity. At least, I don't see him stating as such - just that he works for one. Maybe i'm wrong. But I see those as two different things. Damned if you do, damned if you don't; I'm sure if he hadn't done that someone would find an angle; how unprofessional it was for Topping to employ "online spies" or whatever.
No idea what you mean about Topping leveraging ASR - Topping seem to have their own kit for measuring SINAD etc. It's hard to see that high performance regarding measurements is necessarily at the expense of reliability. I'm not sure there is a problem Topping has to solve. Much of the stuff I've bought over the last few years has for some people caused a problem to the point where my pre-purchase research has almost put me off buying it, but where subsequently I've had no problems at all. People don't tend to go online and say "I bought this amp and it works". As far as I know there was a fault in the design of the L30 which has been remedied. It damaged some headphones just like a Schiit amp did back in the day. As far as I know no more Schiit amps have done this, and neither have any other Topping amps. I'm a software guy so I don't know why this sort of thing happens....wait, what am I talking about? If it's anything like software I know exactly why it happens!
Sorry, maybe I wasn't very clear in my use of leverage. Amir has on multiple occasions said that feedback from ASR on poorly performing products has led to improvements. Both because of his measurements and because the community here doesn't accept poor performance. Schiit is referred to from time to time as having benefitted from ASR. Like, Schiit has leveraged ASR to improved. Amir literally says it often. And I believe it. And it is good.

Regarding the status of employees of companies on forums... We are in agreement, make money! I am pretty sure John's presence on ASR is positive for Topping. And good for the community. I think you and I are also saying, this is a tricky business when the topic veers from SINAD and other important things, to quality. And respect that it puts anybody on a forum from a company in a difficult position. But, can't have it both ways here.

Also, I agree there is no tradeoff between performance and quality/reliability. I think they go hand in hand to a great extent (except for turbocharging a minivan...) Sorry if I misled there... The issue with the PA5 isn't due to the awesome performance. It may be a bad batch for all I know! Your comment about software... Wouldn't it be funny if the PA5 rustling leaves problem is fixed with a firmware update?
 

Slayer

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He's not a rep though, is he? Not a representative of the company on this forum.
Strongly disagree with this statement.
When you are on a forum and tout you are the designer/engineer of products, happily taking praise and along with bragging his designs are better than others. You are a Rep for the company. He is more than willing to speak with anyone if it's benefits, he and Topping.
He IMO has gone silent because of his interactions with members in the past when he was questioned on problems or possible design weaknesses.
He was called out by a few members because of his inability to take or handle criticism in a professional manner. This could be why he is not responding when these issues have risen to this level.
It's also a possibility Topping has advised him to no longer interact with customers who are having issues. If that were to be the case, IMO he at the very least owes it to the members to state just that.
 

SDC

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Driving 1.75" CD w/o protection cap using PA5. Not dead yet. Will come back if it dies :p

There are many failure reports in S.Korea audio sites like sudden noise and stuffs.
Don't know if this is a time bomb or random box but you have to be careful.

And topping needs to do something :rolleyes:
 

Paco De Lucia

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In normal circumstances I would cringe when read your words but when a third of the owners voted as the amplifier has a fault in such a short period of time it is hard to argue with the adjective. Even if half of the votes are not representative, 15% faulty within less than a year of shipping is a very bad number.
I don't think we can even assume 15% failure rate. its probably a lot lower than that. most people buy the thing and it works, they may never come back to asr or bother read any of the relevant threads. If you have a faulty unit though the chances are you are going to google it and end up here.
 
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