Poll for Topping PA5 owners only please.

[DWPress]

I purchased my PA5 soon after Amir measured it here. It died a year ago but I fixed it and it's still cranking out some tunes in a secondary system.

 

[douteiful]

Incredible thread. Topping products should be banned from this site or at the very least have a disclaimer in every review.
I was about to get the E30+L30 combo because a quick Google search will lead to excellent measurements but few people will dig deeper into these threads.
I'm sorry but this makes me very wary of Amir.

 

[Roland68]

Incredible thread. Topping products should be banned from this site or at the very least have a disclaimer in every review.
I was about to get the E30+L30 combo because a quick Google search will lead to excellent measurements but few people will dig deeper into these threads.
I'm sorry but this makes me very wary of Amir.

What is the point of such a statement? And what is it based on?

If so, then it would have to apply to all inexpensive Chinese audio equipment manufacturers.

 

[douteiful]

If so, then it would have to apply to all inexpensive Chinese audio equipment manufacturers.

In my opinion it should apply to every manufacturer known to have quality control and after-market support issues, no matter the price of their products nor the country of manufacture. Schiit, an American company, went through a similar ordeal in the past as I'm sure we all know. This "It's cheap, what did you expect?" and "It's Chinese, what did you expect?" way of seeing things doesn't seem healthy to me for many reasons.

 

[gamerpaddy]

"oh no a single product out of 30..40 had a design failure that only occured after months of constant use, how could they overlook this in their 1minute qc,
they even started to offer a replacement even for out of warranty units for everyone after a while, what a ****** brand. "

topping made a shift in the audio industry from stupid overpriced junk driven by shady "5/7 golden ears" reviewers that are 60+ and have hearing problems, to actual, scientifically proven good and also affordable devices that just deliver.

i went with a pa5, mine failed, i found a solution for it (im not the RMA guy in general) and still find it a incredible little box i use every day.
PA5 II fixed this and other than the usual 0.5..1% of stuff that fails (like on any other brand), and this was the only incident on one of their products

 

[Roland68]

In my opinion it should apply to every manufacturer known to have quality control and after-market support issues, no matter the price of their products nor the country of manufacture. Schiit, an American company, went through a similar ordeal in the past as I'm sure we all know. This "It's cheap, what did you expect?" and "It's Chinese, what did you expect?" way of seeing things doesn't seem healthy to me for many reasons.

And I personally find it insane that customers expect the same quality and service for a quarter of the price, or less, as they would from RME or Violectric.
You get what you pay for, you just have to use your common sense.

This customer expectation has led to a significant decline in quality and service at many proven and reputable manufacturers, and not just in the audio sector.

There's another very important point to consider.
Hardly any of these Chinese audio devices can be repaired after the warranty period. Since buyers accept this, the problem extends to other manufacturers as well.

 

[douteiful]

And I personally find it insane that customers expect the same quality and service for a quarter of the price, or less, as they would from RME or Violectric.

I've had excellent customer service from JDS Labs every since I've had 2 O2s and an Atom, both of which are cheap as well. I also don't know of any of their products killing headphones. Beyerdynamic also gave me great support when one of the drivers of my DT770 (equally cheap headphones) died - they sent a replacement for free. I've never had any RMA declined because my product was cheap, either. I would agree with you if I didn't already have good experience with other companies.

This customer expectation has led to a significant decline in quality and service at many proven and reputable manufacturers, and not just in the audio sector.

...Customers expecting quality and service has led to a decline of quality and service?

Sorry I think we live in a different universe altogether. I'll leave it here, as a new user I don't want to get banned.

 

[Talisman]

It's ABSOLUTELY unfair to expect premature death or a lack of warranty from a cheap product based on its low price. I can accept low quality, poor performance, and cheap materials, but if I pay for a product, I expect it to function properly within the legal terms, or that I, as a consumer, be protected in the event that this doesn't happen.
I believe that for a consumer, justifying this type of practice is like hitting yourself in the finger with a hammer.

 

[Sokel]

Whoever thinks that such kind of devices are considered cheap, compare them with something like a cheap $100 printer and see how much gear you get with that.
Yes, I know scale, etc but still.

A device gone out in the market has no excuse these days, it either works and do what's advertised or else gets the stick. "Cheap" and "expensive" says nothing unless it's relative to its useful, operating time.

 

[TheWalkman]

It's ABSOLUTELY unfair to expect premature death or a lack of warranty from a cheap product based on its low price. I can accept low quality, poor performance, and cheap materials, but if I pay for a product, I expect it to function properly within the legal terms, or that I, as a consumer, be protected in the event that this doesn't happen.
I believe that for a consumer, justifying this type of practice is like hitting yourself in the finger with a hammer.

Though the Topping PA5 (ii) isn’t priced like a Macintosh, for $200 I expect reasonable quality. I have a couple of Aiymas running strong that are easily five years old and cost a third the price of my Topping. I expect the Topping to perform at least that well.

What bothers me more is the fact that the faulty op amp on the Topping failed because they were trying to be proprietary and hide the identity of the component by potting it and ultimately causing thermal failure as I understand it.

I finally jumped through the hoops and got my amp replaced but I didn’t feel like Topping was very proactive in reaching out and fixing their self-created error. The burden was on us to fix their mess.

 

[Roland68]

I've had excellent customer service from JDS Labs every since I've had 2 O2s and an Atom, both of which are cheap as well. I also don't know of any of their products killing headphones. Beyerdynamic also gave me great support when one of the drivers of my DT770 (equally cheap headphones) died - they sent a replacement for free. I've never had any RMA declined because my product was cheap, either. I would agree with you if I didn't already have good experience with other companies.


...Customers expecting quality and service has led to a decline of quality and service?

Sorry I think we live in a different universe altogether. I'll leave it here, as a new user I don't want to get banned.

Of course, there are exceptions, and you've mentioned two very good ones with outstanding customer service. Sennheiser, for example, is one of them.

The market and the manufacturers have simply realized that customers will continue to buy products even if the service and quality aren't up to scratch, even though their expectations for service and quality remain. SMSL and Topping are prime examples.
SMSL and Topping sell tens of thousands of devices per year, if not over a million, and have been doing so for years, with a sharp increase.

Just look at the service and quality 20 years ago and today from manufacturers like AKG, Denon, Cambridge, Harman, etc., which are now abysmal. Most of Yamaha's high-quality CD and SACD players, even those from the last 10 years, are no longer repairable. Devices costing €1,000 or €3,000 are simply scrap.

And it's no different in other areas. A current example is household appliances from the manufacturer Bauknecht. After the 2- or 5-year warranty, repair prices are often at or above the device price. Service and goodwill are zero. I've experienced this myself with 3 devices in the last 8 years. It used to be a really good, service- and customer-oriented manufacturer, but today it's just a box-pusher living off its good name.

Unfortunately, market research and studies also confirm this. For every manufacturer that continuously improves its customer service and quality, there are at least 4-5 that cut costs drastically in these areas. And that only applies to European and American companies. In other countries, this discrepancy is much greater.

And you certainly won't be banned for a discussion like that.

 

[Roland68]

It's ABSOLUTELY unfair to expect premature death or a lack of warranty from a cheap product based on its low price. I can accept low quality, poor performance, and cheap materials, but if I pay for a product, I expect it to function properly within the legal terms, or that I, as a consumer, be protected in the event that this doesn't happen.
I believe that for a consumer, justifying this type of practice is like hitting yourself in the finger with a hammer.

But you're setting a standard here that doesn't apply to Chinese companies.

To do so, you must purchase your device in the EU from a local dealer or directly from a local manufacturer. This dealer or manufacturer is then responsible for the statutory warranty and service and must fulfill these.

If you purchase a device abroad, i.e., outside the EU, you are considered the importer and distributor. Guess who is then legally responsible for warranty and service in the EU?
You!

In that case, you are also personally liable for compliance with the CE mark.

 

[mocenigo]

In my opinion it should apply to every manufacturer known to have quality control and after-market support issues, no matter the price of their products nor the country of manufacture. Schiit, an American company, went through a similar ordeal in the past as I'm sure we all know. This "It's cheap, what did you expect?" and "It's Chinese, what did you expect?" way of seeing things doesn't seem healthy to me for many reasons.

Also, all companies sometimes manufacture duds. Remember the MacBooks with the failing power controller board and the infamous butterfly keyboard?

Topping has had a lot of great products and also the L30 and PA5. In my case product support has been great.

Everybody has the right to be annoyed when they get a defective product, even more so when the defect is due to design and not due to a manufacturing fault. This does not mean the company is a fraud or that they do not care about their customers.

 

[Talisman]

This does not mean the company is a fraud or that they do not care about their customers.

Seriously?
Let's recap for anyone who missed something.
Topping made a design error that effectively caused all its original PA5s to meet certain death within a few months to a year. At a certain point, they realized and couldn't deny it. Through one of their people here on their forum, they openly stated that the problem was a component immersed in resin, which caused it to overheat in the medium term.
A reputable company that cares about its customers now launches a recall campaign, offering each customer a free repair of the offending part, a full refund, or alternatively a voucher for a future Topping product or a replacement with a new, problem-free model.
None of this.
Topping continues to sell its PA5s, aware of the defect, doesn't recall the units, doesn't offer anyone a refund, and barely meets warranty repair requests by charging customers for shipping to China.
NO, this is not a serious company that takes care of its customers and takes responsibility for its mistakes.

 

[bboris77]

Seriously?
Let's recap for anyone who missed something.
Topping made a design error that effectively caused all its original PA5s to meet certain death within a few months to a year. At a certain point, they realized and couldn't deny it. Through one of their people here on their forum, they openly stated that the problem was a component immersed in resin, which caused it to overheat in the medium term.
A reputable company that cares about its customers now launches a recall campaign, offering each customer a free repair of the offending part, a full refund, or alternatively a voucher for a future Topping product or a replacement with a new, problem-free model.
None of this.
Topping continues to sell its PA5s, aware of the defect, doesn't recall the units, doesn't offer anyone a refund, and barely meets warranty repair requests by charging customers for shipping to China.
NO, this is not a serious company that takes care of its customers and takes responsibility for its mistakes.

How long for did they sell the original PA5 after they acknowledged the issue?

 

[Roland68]

Seriously?
Let's recap for anyone who missed something.
Topping made a design error that effectively caused all its original PA5s to meet certain death within a few months to a year. At a certain point, they realized and couldn't deny it. Through one of their people here on their forum, they openly stated that the problem was a component immersed in resin, which caused it to overheat in the medium term.
A reputable company that cares about its customers now launches a recall campaign, offering each customer a free repair of the offending part, a full refund, or alternatively a voucher for a future Topping product or a replacement with a new, problem-free model.
None of this.
Topping continues to sell its PA5s, aware of the defect, doesn't recall the units, doesn't offer anyone a refund, and barely meets warranty repair requests by charging customers for shipping to China.
NO, this is not a serious company that takes care of its customers and takes responsibility for its mistakes.

That's not entirely true.
As far as I know, only a certain percentage of the devices were affected, not all of them. But it could be as high as 10-20%. I own an original PA5 myself that's been running for almost 10,000 hours.

It wasn't a thermal fault, but another problem with the potting compound that led to the failure.
I've since removed and repaired the potting compound on more than 10 PA5s. No op amps or other components had to be replaced. So definitely no heat damage.

It took some time before Topping started replacing these devices, and they did so very reluctantly. Selling off the potentially defective PA5s was also an absolute disgrace and disrespectful to the ignorant customers.
I've experienced the same behavior several times at SMSL.
However, according to recent reports here in the forum, Topping is still exchanging PA5s for PA5 IIs in exchange for covering the shipping costs (approx. €20?) and destroying the PA5.

However, I've never made a secret of how awful I find Topping's treatment of customers with defective devices.

And it's even worse with the A90D (Discrete), for example. I know several people with defective A90Ds, always with the same r4/r5 error, which is due to inferior components. If the device was purchased in China, the requested cost of at least €300 for repair/replacement plus return shipping costs is a slap in the face.

This is a €600 device, so I expect that for defects due to inferior components, there will be a free replacement for at least five years, followed by a repair service at a reasonable price. For 4 components for a maximum of €2 and 15 minutes of work, €25-50 would be appropriate, not 250-300.

 

[Fleuch]

Incredible thread. Topping products should be banned from this site or at the very least have a disclaimer in every review.
I was about to get the E30+L30 combo because a quick Google search will lead to excellent measurements but few people will dig deeper into these threads.
I'm sorry but this makes me very wary of Amir.

1. What would be your objective in "banning" measurement and discussion of Topping products from ASR?

2. What are your reasons for writing "this makes me very wary of Amir" ?

Amir can only present the measurements, from the Audio Precision APx555 Audio Analyzer he uses, as found. Any conclusions made at the end of the review are personal, as are ALL reviews online or in print. Measurements are carried out using cutting-edge, matchless equipment. It is for you to make your own judgement regarding the performance of any device(s) you intend to purchase based on the measurements presented, not to make unsubstantiated remarks about the person who made the measurements.

It is preferable to review a device, rather than to "ban it from the site", as by doing so you would prevent the performance, and value of the device, from being discussed. "Banning" reviews and discussions of products made by Topping (and other manufacturers) would also prevent anyone using the site from "digging deeper into these threads", to the detriment of all users. ASR is not a product comparison site.

What are you truly complaining about?

By the way Amir, reviewed the E30 and L30 in 2020, so there has been much water under the bridge since then, and many devices with improved specification brought to market. There is also a review in 2023 of the E30 II Lite, but not by Amir. With the increasing number of audio electronic devices Amir has measured and reviewed, it is reasonable to suggest that he is in a better place to suggest whether a device is "good, bad, or ugly" than most of us.

 

[xaxxon]

Amir can only present the measurements

That's not true. He chooses to only do that, but he is not limited to only doing that. He could put up a huge warning banner on that review saying that this design had a massive failure rate but has repeatedly chosen not to do so.

Refusing to review a brand obviously doesn't help anyone, though. That would not be a good choice for sure.

 

[mocenigo]

That's not entirely true.
As far as I know, only a certain percentage of the devices were affected, not all of them. But it could be as high as 10-20%. I own an original PA5 myself that's been running for almost 10,000 hours.

It wasn't a thermal fault, but another problem with the potting compound that led to the failure.
I've since removed and repaired the potting compound on more than 10 PA5s. No op amps or other components had to be replaced. So definitely no heat damage.

It took some time before Topping started replacing these devices, and they did so very reluctantly. Selling off the potentially defective PA5s was also an absolute disgrace and disrespectful to the ignorant customers.
I've experienced the same behavior several times at SMSL.
However, according to recent reports here in the forum, Topping is still exchanging PA5s for PA5 IIs in exchange for covering the shipping costs (approx. €20?) and destroying the PA5.

However, I've never made a secret of how awful I find Topping's treatment of customers with defective devices.

And it's even worse with the A90D (Discrete), for example. I know several people with defective A90Ds, always with the same r4/r5 error, which is due to inferior components. If the device was purchased in China, the requested cost of at least €300 for repair/replacement plus return shipping costs is a slap in the face.

This is a €600 device, so I expect that for defects due to inferior components, there will be a free replacement for at least five years, followed by a repair service at a reasonable price. For 4 components for a maximum of €2 and 15 minutes of work, €25-50 would be appropriate, not 250-300.

I wonder how many PA5 have been sold by unscrupulous resellers, instead of sending them back to Topping.

 

[bboris77]

My PA5 II lasted one day before developing a 14V DC offset in the left channel. Initially, it was about 21mV. I fortunately managed to disconnect my speakers while the offset was at 389mV, and it spiked up to full 14V within the hour. Terrible.