Poll: Do you use a subwoofer? (Explain why/why not)

[sfdoddsy]

Agreed. "One octave above your speaker's roll-off point" is pretty absurd. That's going to put you up at 100-120hz for a lot of bookshelf speakers if not higher.

Even an 80hz crossover point is, IMHO, too high most of the time. With a typical 12dB/octave crossover slope, that means your subwoofer will be playing audible content up at 160hz, which is very localizable and right in the middle of the male vocal range.

There are exceptions, such as perhaps if you're running multiple subs, steeper crossover slopes, etc.

But even moving from a 80hz crossover point to a 60hz crossover point makes a tremendous difference in my experience, assuming your bookshelves can play strong down to 60hz.



Totally agree... for listening material that has content down at 20hz.

Here's the counterpoint though: most music won't contain bass anywhere near that deep, and all but the most meticulous subwoofer setups will not be able match the cohesion of a 2-way or 3-way speaker... and many can play down into the 30hz or even 20hz range. So that's where the "subwoofer or no subwoofer" choice gets tough.

Such speakers generally cost an arm and a leg in the commercial sphere, but can be had for cheap in the DIY world like the Classix II or Amiga kits.

Assuming you set up the sub (or subs) properly using modern technology such as REW for measurements and DSP for EQ and crossover, it is fairly easy to get a correct blend between subs and main speakers.

It is, however, impossible to get your average high quality three way speaker, let alone a two way, to the full frequency range of music without either cutting off the lowest notes, compressing them or distorting them.

Even if your sub set-up is less than ideal, the above errors are fare more audible (to me) than potential group delay or phase errors.

I currently have smallish mains (KEF LS50s and R3s) but I have owned many 'full range' speakers from Wilsons, Genesis and APogees on down. None of them have failed to be improved by proper subs.

 

[dkinric]

Yes, for my stereo only music setup. Turns the weakness of the system (standmounters and low bass - physics ya know) into a strength. Have ML Dynamo 800x - small, sealed, but powerful 10". Built in DSP to correct for room nodes. Adjustable on the fly with an app.
Liked it so much I bought another, now running 2.2. Sound is superb, absolutely amazed every time I have a critical listen.

Another benefit is I can enjoy listening a more moderate levels. I used to feel the need to really turn it up (even with towers) to feel the impact and enjoy the sound. Now the full spectrum, tonal balance and impact is there, even at more moderate listening levels.

 

[Krunok]

Not in that case as it was only a fun experiment. I did indeed make measurements with the main system for that room. That is with my Quad 2805 stats and similalry as per B&W instructions I there set the low pass filter I think at 34 Hz, with a 4th order slope, to have as little bleeding of the sub into the electrostatics' range as possible. The stats also fall off pretty steeply below about 37 Hz sand that is quite visible in the graphs, better resembling a vented than a closed enclosure. With the sub FR extends at full level to below 15 Hz. Integration with the sub looks and sounds very good, with room modes my only more serious issue, even if partly tamed by an Antimode 8033 dsp room eq and some additional filtering from my RME ADI-2. I have not yet made measurements of my most recent adjustment where I used the subwoofer's setting to reduce low frequency extension (I had a peak around 13 Hz - it is a big room). It certainly sounds very good. We are planning to get a new sofa plus a pouf, and the idea is to get one with a bit more damping surface, to tame higher frequency reflections a bit more.

Frankly, I don't see a way to integrate sub(s) with mains without measurements. You can do some rough level matching using your ears but without measurements and EQ the result will be far from linear .

 

[Willem]

Indeed, so that is why I measured my main system. It showed that my low pass filter setting was about right, but that level was a bit too low. The most important thing was, however, that the room modes showed quite clearly, even after equalization of the subwoofer output by the Antimode. What the Antimode could not do was to also equalize the remaining low frequency output of the main speakers, and this showed. So this is what I used the filters on the RME ADI-2 for. I may decide to get some Harrison Labs Fmods to reduce LF output of the stats.

 

[Krunok]

Indeed, so that is why I measured my main system.

I was, kind of, expecting you would post final measurements.

 

[Willem]

I don't have measurements yet of the final reduction of the LF extension of the sub output. I also want to experiment with more alternative sub locations, but that is time consuming. Recent wekends have had very nice weather, so I preferred to go on some bicycle camping tours.

 

[Mashcky]

I don’t use subs but mostly because I don’t own any yet and live in an apartment. I’m interested in making two small 8” sealed subwoofers to integrate with my er18dxt bookshelves. I’m equally as concerned with bass above 100hz because my small living room should create modes pretty high in frequency. I need to research to figure out how to integrate subs at a higher frequency without making them localizable.

 

[ashleydoormat]

I just put together my desktop system a few months ago starting with a pair of Presonus Eris 4.5 with iso stands. Since the monitors only go down to 70Hz I was missing all the double bass in music! Was planning to add a sub before I bought them but the lack of deeper bass prompted me to look for one asap. Then I got a pretty decent deal from Amazon warehouse which is the Audioengine S8W. Was looking for something cheaper but all of the subs were built like the Titanic! This little sub is still too much power for my use but it's small enough to tuck under my desk and the bass has dramatically improved. I adjust the crossover by ear only and since I placed the monitors close to the wall I adjust the low cut off to 100Hz and -4db and let the sub handle anything lower than that. It took awhile to make the bass just enough without blooming in my room. It may still bloom with some bass heavy tracks (some techno tracks have too much bass boost I believe) but the mid bass is fast with each hit punching in your face which I love in psytrance.

I know there's software/hardware to properly measure room acoustic/crossover freq. it'd be good to know if there's something free/cheap to use and easy to use for novice.

 

[Willem]

REW is free software but a bit of a pain to use. However, basic measurements are fairly simple. If you are using a PC as your only source (as you may well do in a desktop system) the Equalizer Apo is free software to apply the filter graph created by REW.

 

[essence]

REW + RePhase doing wonders for my low end. My speakers Dynaudio C1s are rated 45-22kHz ± 3 dB.

Top set = before, middle = sonarworks and bottom is REW + RePhase autoeq low end only (40 - 1k).

 

[ashleydoormat]

REW + RePhase doing wonders for my low end. My speakers Dynaudio C1s are rated 45-22kHz ± 3 dB.

View attachment 35135

Top set = before, middle = sonarworks and bottom is REW + RePhase autoeq low end only (40 - 1k).

So the goal is to have a lower overall db after adjustment? Can you describe your subjective impressions comparing before and after?

 

[essence]

So the goal is to have a lower overall db after adjustment? Can you describe your subjective impressions comparing before and after?

No I just added offsets to the measurements for easier comparison. The goal is to remove / nullify the nulls and peaks to have a flat response and therefore neutral tonal balance. Sometimes you'll get nulls that cannot be EQ'd out due to room modes etc and makes it easier to decide weather to integrate a sub or not.

I don't listen to very loud levels and prior to eq sometimes it feels like I needed to turn up the volume higher a tad bit higher to get the low end punch but then everything else becomes too loud.

 

[mikewxyz]

Hi Essence: The Rephase thing looks like it works wonders. I used REW/ miniDSP to eq my speakers awhile back. It also worked well - attenuating the peaks and generally made the FR curve flatter but not as flat as you got your C1's. However, I didn't like the sound. It was too anemic for my taste. Then I read Toole's book where he discusses FR curves and general listening preferences. I put myself into the group that prefers a modest bump in the low end and a declining FR response towards the high end.

It is interesting that your perception of your system is that it has more bass after Eq'ing.

BTW, I was in the market for C1's for awhile but the WAF was ultimately too low (R2D2 like was the comment). I think they look great.

 

[matt3421]

Im using a HSU VTF-2 MK5 with my KH 80 DSPs. a big necessity as these monitors are only flat to 60hz. now i am intrigued by RePhase. could that get rid of the ~12db null i have at around 30hz?

 

[Fluffy]

I currently don't use one and I feel I'm getting sufficient bass from my current set up. But I would like to upgrade sometime, and I actually think I prefer to go with two full range speakers than adding a sub. Something that goes down efficiently to 30-35hz sounds like enough. I realized I almost never listen to music that has any meaningful content below 40hz, and for movies I'm not a big LFE fan anyway (I don't do surround).

 

[Mashcky]

I realized I almost never listen to music that has any meaningful content below 40hz, and for movies I'm not a big LFE fan anyway (I don't do surround).

I sympathize with your approach. I’m only interested in subwoofers for bass management above 40hz or so. The promise of tight, even bass accomplished by using DSP and multiple subs is quite enticing.

 

[Fluffy]

@Mashcky But do you really need a separate subwoofer for that? There are plenty of big full range speakers that goes comfortably to 35hz and lower. The way I see it, if I have two channels of audio, I want a speaker for each one that can deliver the entire frequency band.

 

[dkinric]

There are numerous advantages to going with a sub(s) for a music system vs full range towers. I think of it like separates vs all in one systems, but for speakers. Sure, you can get a decent all in one music box (ie Naim Mu-so), but there are usually compromises, not the least of which is to pay much more money for equivalent or lesser performance.

- Full range towers that can play flat down to 30hz or so are expensive. Adding sub(s) to existing setup allows you to keep your current speakers and offload a specific job to a device designed for it
- These full range tower speakers would require a good bit of amp power
- Powered subs do not use amplifier power. If bass management is present, that power can be allocated for higher frequencies
- Sub(s) allow more flexibility. For placement (imaging placement is not always best for bass placement). And sub level (can be adjusted independently for taste/proper blending)

Properly blended, they can add a lot to just about any system.

 

[Ron Texas]

Some around here are underestimating how difficult it is to get a sub working right. Without REW and a microphone it's nearly impossible. REW is amazing, but it takes some work to learn how to use even it's basic functions. Again the engineer types underestimate how hard this for the rest of us. There are a lot of variables, placement, phase, volume, low pass, high pass and the elusive time alignment. AVR's help with this, but if you are running a DAC into a stereo amplifier high pass and time alignment will likely require additional hardware.

I wasted about 6 months until I bought a microphone and started using REW. My downfiring sub offered an additional variable because it could be converted to front firing. That was the final piece of the puzzle. The sub is time aligned, but there was some luck involved there.

 

[ernestcarl]

Some around here are underestimating how difficult it is to get a sub working right. Without REW and a microphone it's nearly impossible. REW is amazing, but it takes some work to learn how to use even it's basic functions. Again the engineer types underestimate how hard this for the rest of us. There are a lot of variables, placement, phase, volume, low pass, high pass and the elusive time alignment. AVR's help with this, but if you are running a DAC into a stereo high pass and time alignment will likely require additional hardware.

I wasted about 6 months until I bought a microphone and started using REW. My downfiring sub offered an additional variable because it could be converted to front firing. That was the final piece of the puzzle. The sub is time aligned, but there was some luck involved there.

I've also seen other people incorrigibly talk about getting the balance between their speakers and sub(s) only by ear since they do not trust "measurements" and "graphs" -- but often it takes them absolutely forever, and they keep on rearranging their setup month after month. I agree, taking measurements is absolutely essential nowadays -- and luckily, the measurement gear for this task is not really all that expensive. Takes time though, to learn and get it right.