REL do some elegant small subwoofers, and in a small room like yours you do not need much more. Alternatively, and with rather better value for money, there is the SVS SB1000. Its biggest drawback in my view would be that its lowest crossover setting is 50 Hz, which may be a bit high, but maybe not. REL have always been champions of crossing over very low, and I tend to agree with that approach.
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Poll: Do you use a subwoofer? (Explain why/why not)
Subs tend to be very heavy and reproduce high energy at low frequencies. That places great demands on shelving particularly if you plan to have any other objects on the same shelf or shelving unit.
D
Deleted member 4987
Guest
Thanks for the help everyone.
As a further note on the amp, as I understand the pre out is volume controlled, but there is no high pass filter to cut the bass (if that makes sense).
Not sure what that means practically, I'm assuming it means you can't really set a crossover.
As a further note on the amp, as I understand the pre out is volume controlled, but there is no high pass filter to cut the bass (if that makes sense).
Not sure what that means practically, I'm assuming it means you can't really set a crossover.
No need for a high pass filter on the amplifier. It simply means that the main speakers will run at full range, and that the subwoofer will fill in below that, up to the low pass filter frequency set on the subwoofer.
There are advantages to having a high pass filter on the amplifier because it reduces the strain on the amplifier and the main speakers, and perhaps for this reason this is a route often preferred in the US where rooms tend to be much larger. The downside is more difficult integration.
There are advantages to having a high pass filter on the amplifier because it reduces the strain on the amplifier and the main speakers, and perhaps for this reason this is a route often preferred in the US where rooms tend to be much larger. The downside is more difficult integration.
digitalfrost
Major Contributor
I've built impulse compensated subwoofers.
I have them on my desk. Nothing rattles, objects don't wander, it works. I've used http://www.tb-speaker.com/products/w5-1138smf which is an affordable driver that is happy in 10l closed box (so 20l for a pair). It doesn't go very loud, but it's good enough for me. I've measured 107dBC in movies when things explode.
Yes for movies. SFX!
Great. Of course, that does not make them any lighter.
For a fairly inexpensive (~$200 USD) easy-to-use crossover you could use a dbx 223xs. Stick it after the preamp outs and before the amplifier inputs ( you can buy XLR or TRS to RCA adapters). It is a standard analog 4th-order (24 dB/octave) Linkwitz-Riley crossover. That keeps the mains from running full-range, saving power in the amp and reducing distortion in the mains, and lets the sub do its thing.
HTH - Don
HTH - Don
The SVS SB-1000 is one of the smallest (13.5" x 13" x 14") and most musical subs I know of. A pair might be ideal in your room.
There are also slimline subs like the Dayton 1000L. They will not give thunderous low frequency output, but can be used to extend i.e. a set of small bookshelf speakers down to a satisfying 40hz or so, which can be sufficient for a lot of needs.
I have one of these (well, the 224) and love it.
A MiniDSP is cheaper, much more flexible, and can be neatly hidden. However... the dbx crossover is simply more fun and convenient thanks to the analog knobs.
Yeah, experience tells me that crossing over as low as possible (slightly above the main speakers' natural roll-off point) is always the best sound.
If you're going for maximum SPL it might be good to cross over a little higher. But I don't think too many systems are SPL-limited these days. And if a system is struggling to reach the desired SPL in the intended listening environment, then there are other big problems to worry about.
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The recommendation used to be to cross over an octave above the main speakers roll-off point, especially if your prepro (or other crossover generator) can't adjust slopes.
If your speakers are, say 6dB down at 40Hz, and you cross over at 40Hz with a 12dB low pass, they will actually be 6dB lower at the crossover than classic theory suggests. To crossover accurately at 40Hz your speakers should be flat to 20Hz. Which is unusual.
I've owned REL subs in the past and bought into their recommendations, but they don't really make sense.
One reason to use a sub is to play low notes. Another reason is to prevent your main speakers with their 6 inch drivers from playing low notes.
A properly constructed crossover should be imperceptible down low. But the benefits of not having your six inch woofer trying to play 20Hz tones should not be.
If your speakers are, say 6dB down at 40Hz, and you cross over at 40Hz with a 12dB low pass, they will actually be 6dB lower at the crossover than classic theory suggests. To crossover accurately at 40Hz your speakers should be flat to 20Hz. Which is unusual.
I've owned REL subs in the past and bought into their recommendations, but they don't really make sense.
One reason to use a sub is to play low notes. Another reason is to prevent your main speakers with their 6 inch drivers from playing low notes.
A properly constructed crossover should be imperceptible down low. But the benefits of not having your six inch woofer trying to play 20Hz tones should not be.
Agreed. "One octave above your speaker's roll-off point" is pretty absurd. That's going to put you up at 100-120hz for a lot of bookshelf speakers if not higher.
Even an 80hz crossover point is, IMHO, too high most of the time. With a typical 12dB/octave crossover slope, that means your subwoofer will be playing audible content up at 160hz, which is very localizable and right in the middle of the male vocal range.
There are exceptions, such as perhaps if you're running multiple subs, steeper crossover slopes, etc.
But even moving from a 80hz crossover point to a 60hz crossover point makes a tremendous difference in my experience, assuming your bookshelves can play strong down to 60hz.
Totally agree... for listening material that has content down at 20hz.
Here's the counterpoint though: most music won't contain bass anywhere near that deep, and all but the most meticulous subwoofer setups will not be able match the cohesion of a 2-way or 3-way speaker... and many can play down into the 30hz or even 20hz range. So that's where the "subwoofer or no subwoofer" choice gets tough.
Such speakers generally cost an arm and a leg in the commercial sphere, but can be had for cheap in the DIY world like the Classix II or Amiga kits.
Even an 80hz crossover point is, IMHO, too high most of the time. With a typical 12dB/octave crossover slope, that means your subwoofer will be playing audible content up at 160hz, which is very localizable and right in the middle of the male vocal range.
There are exceptions, such as perhaps if you're running multiple subs, steeper crossover slopes, etc.
But even moving from a 80hz crossover point to a 60hz crossover point makes a tremendous difference in my experience, assuming your bookshelves can play strong down to 60hz.
Totally agree... for listening material that has content down at 20hz.
Here's the counterpoint though: most music won't contain bass anywhere near that deep, and all but the most meticulous subwoofer setups will not be able match the cohesion of a 2-way or 3-way speaker... and many can play down into the 30hz or even 20hz range. So that's where the "subwoofer or no subwoofer" choice gets tough.
Such speakers generally cost an arm and a leg in the commercial sphere, but can be had for cheap in the DIY world like the Classix II or Amiga kits.
It really depends on your defintion of "strong" but I have yet to see a bookshelf that can play 105dB at 1m without noticeable distortion.
I think strong was meant here in the relative sense, compared to higher frequencies, rather than in an absolute sense. You are quite right that small speakers are not capable of blasting at disco levels.
I experimented with my Harbeth P3ESRs desktop speakers our big listening room and they could not really fill the room but were fine in nearfield. Adding a subwoofer crossed over at I think 45 Hz made quite a difference but even then there were limitations (the litle Harbeths were admittedly still playing at full range).
I experimented with my Harbeth P3ESRs desktop speakers our big listening room and they could not really fill the room but were fine in nearfield. Adding a subwoofer crossed over at I think 45 Hz made quite a difference but even then there were limitations (the litle Harbeths were admittedly still playing at full range).
105dB at 1m at 60Hz is not really a "disco" level, and while decent floorstanders achieve it without trouble it is not really that easy for bookshelves to do so, unless they fall into category of professional studio monitors. Default XO point of 80Hz was not chosen accidentally and is good for most of floorstanders too. And if you are concerned about localizable issues just generate a file with 130Hz tone and play it - you may be surprised how difficult it is to locate it.
For best results, especially in 1 sub scenario, I would recommend some overlapping between sub and mains. Highpassing the mains of course always helps as it relieves them of LF strain.
I use a pair of Dali SWA-12 subs in my main setup, an older 12" sealed 120Wrms model that is affordable and plentiful on the local second-hand market.
The living room is rather small (17m^2), so I'm not really pushing the limits of the subs, even for movies. I've found that multiple well-placed subs give a much more even bass response in the entire room, which is especially important considering the relatively small main speakers (5" woofer) I have to use due to space concerns. I cross them over at 80Hz with a Denon AVR (Boo! Hiss!) and use Audyssey MultEQ for room correction.
The living room is rather small (17m^2), so I'm not really pushing the limits of the subs, even for movies. I've found that multiple well-placed subs give a much more even bass response in the entire room, which is especially important considering the relatively small main speakers (5" woofer) I have to use due to space concerns. I cross them over at 80Hz with a Denon AVR (Boo! Hiss!) and use Audyssey MultEQ for room correction.
I set the low pass filter on the sub at 45 Hz as advised by B&W for this particular speaker, and it proved to be just right (0.6 times the - 3dB frequency of a closed box speaker, in my case 75 Hz). Slope was 2nd order, and phase was 180 degree, both as recommended by B&W for a closed box system.
It is always reasonable to follow manufacturer's recommendations for the particular model. Did yo make measurements to check FR?
Not in that case as it was only a fun experiment. I did indeed make measurements with the main system for that room. That is with my Quad 2805 stats and similalry as per B&W instructions I there set the low pass filter I think at 34 Hz, with a 4th order slope, to have as little bleeding of the sub into the electrostatics' range as possible. The stats also fall off pretty steeply below about 37 Hz sand that is quite visible in the graphs, better resembling a vented than a closed enclosure. With the sub FR extends at full level to below 15 Hz. Integration with the sub looks and sounds very good, with room modes my only more serious issue, even if partly tamed by an Antimode 8033 dsp room eq and some additional filtering from my RME ADI-2. I have not yet made measurements of my most recent adjustment where I used the subwoofer's setting to reduce low frequency extension (I had a peak around 13 Hz - it is a big room). It certainly sounds very good. We are planning to get a new sofa plus a pouf, and the idea is to get one with a bit more damping surface, to tame higher frequency reflections a bit more.
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