Poll: Do you use a subwoofer? (Explain why/why not)

[Aap op Sokken]

Hi everyone,

I'm surprised to see so many people using subs, i never really considered it. I have been using headphones for quite some time, only recently i got enough room for big speakers. For now I have some second hand speakers and an amp on loan, i'm still orienting on what i would like to buy.

Under what circumstances would you recommend a sub? I don't care about movies, only music. My current speakers claim to go to 30Hz:

 

[Willem]

A sub is interesting for proper deep bass and more dynamics. Until the advent of digital sources I was not too keen on deep bass and vinyl could never do great dynamics, but from the early 1980's onwards with Cd and later other digital formats it began to make sense, and all the more so with DVD and BD movies, that often have quite a bit of deep bass (I use my stereo system for movies as well). My main speakers do not go that low (about 37 Hz), so the sub made quite a difference.
Of course one can achieve deep bass with large main speakers as well, but they have the disadvantage that their location in the room is determined by where they have to be for a good stereo image, and that is not necessarily the best place to avoid room modes. This is all the more relevant in smaller listening rooms, where room modes are a real issue. Therefore, my ideal system for a smaller room would be small speakers (I also have a pair of Harbeth P3ESRs and they are glorious) enhanced by two small subwoofers. Be prepared for dsp room eq as well.
In really small rooms the room modes are at pretty high frequencies (100-200 Hz and even higher) and the higher the frequency, the harder it is to use dsp room eq because the correct response is only available in a very small listening position. So in those situations I would advise against either subwoofers or big speakers with deep bass. Bad bass is worse than no bass.

 

[Dj7675]

In my main system using JBL 250ti 4 way. The LF is a 14inch ported and are capable of going to 30hz. Despite that, I have a JBL B460 sub (18 inch jbl 2245 driver inch and ported). I have a nasty room null around 40-50hz and located the sub so it eliminates the null. In addition to the improved system frequency response, removing the lowest frequencies from the mains reduces the power needed from the main amp and I would also guess the mains play with less distrortion (although I have not ever bother to measure).

 

[Willem]

The latter only applies if you high pass the main speakers, of course. I notice that this seems a more common approach in the US than in Europe, which is perhaps not surprising given the larger rooms in the US.

 

[sfdoddsy]

For the past 30 years or so I’ve used speakers with dedicated bass sections.

I think bass is fundamental to good sound.

Originally it was things like Wilson Watt/Puppies and Genesis Vs with ‘built-in’ subs, but I learned at considerable cost that one gets better sound with separate subs and EQ.

I’ve subsequently had speakers with true 20hz extension, but always used subs with them.

I’m not allowed full range speakers in my new abode, but just today bought a pair of boundary woofers to go with my LS50s.

Plus my ancient Velodyne for the really deep stuff.

 

[Dj7675]

The latter only applies if you high pass the main speakers, of course. I notice that this seems a more common approach in the US than in Europe, which is perhaps not surprising given the larger rooms in the US.

Yes, that is exactly what I do. Crossover is around 60hz with a 24db slope using a minidsp shd.

 

[DonH56]

I use subs, and have for decades, for all the usual reasons:

• Very (perhaps extremely) few "large" speakers actually play well below 40 Hz let alone 20 Hz. They distort heavily when presented with large bass signals (which most are -- see Fletcher-Munson) and driving them down low robs headroom for higher frequencies and causes distortion well above the fundamental signal frequency (harmonic and nasty intermodulation). Subs typically enable the mains to operate with much lower distortion.
• Very rare is the room setup such that the best place for stereo imaging and soundfield is the best place for the subs (or deep bass drivers) to counter room modes and such. Having independent subs provides placement options to smooth the in-room response. It is almost impossible to counter a null without subs (typically must move the MLP or change the room's dimensions though there are purpose-built panels that can also work). This is one of the things that led me to subs despite having quite capable mains.
• Powered subs offload the main amplifiers of the need to provide deep bass energy, providing more headroom and cleaner sound from the amplifiers.
• Music (let alone action movies) often contains deep bass content even if it is not real obvious. Kick drums, tympani, organ, sure, but also piano hammer strikes, plucked strings, beat patterns from instruments playing together, etc. May not really notice when they are there but usually obvious when they are taken away. Having subs fill in the bottom octave or three can make a difference.
• Purpose-built subs can provide high output cleanly at relatively low cost. The amplifiers and drivers need only cover a fairly limited frequency range so have fewer constraints upon them than woofers in a full-range system.

I do prefer main speakers with fairly deep bass and always have. Crossovers are not brick walls so a fair amount of energy still comes from the mains an octave below the crossover frequency. Higher-order crossovers allow you to reduce the overlap, but I still like having the capability. I have never really understood the idea of running "passive" bi-amping as implemented by an AVR (sending full-range signals to multiple channels and letting the speaker's crossovers separate frequency bands -- wastes amplifier headroom and seems to me of little benefit). Nor do I agree with the "plus" setting putting subs and mains in parallel; again, my idea has always been to isolate the two for the reasons above.

My first sub was a DIY design using an Infinity IRS woofer with my own control box to provide the crossover and a servo circuit using the second voice coil of the woofer. I had a Hafler DH-220 around so also incorporated a circuit to bridge it for use as a subwoofer amp. It worked well and the -3 dB point was ~16 Hz. I now run four small (F12) Rythmik subs using a similar (but updated) servo design with my Revel Salon2's and am happy with the result.

FWIWFM/IME/IMO/my 0.000001 cent (microcent) - Don

 

[Aap op Sokken]

I guess i will have to try a sub at some point in the future. The most convincing argument to me being the ability to move it independently to counter room effects.

On top of my to-do list was already to work on the room, adding some padding. I plan to make some frames with rockwool and speaker cloth. Then see if i can do some measurements...

 

[Juhazi]

Aap, your speaker's bass has tuning at 53hz, which means that below 40Hz response is very weak and mostly distortion. There is one full octave between 20 and 40Hz, but naturally hardly any pure tones in music. Still, lots of ambience happens there, as well as sound effects in movies and many tv-series too. With a 12-15" sealed subwoofer you can hear those, (use preferably a pair). Too many commercial subwoofers have too high tuning to go to 20s.

Matching sub to mains is not easy and also interpretation of measurements takes time. Automatic corrections/eq are safer.

 

[M00ndancer]

I'm in the "using subs" category. Don't have the space or money for bigger speakers. Also have to keep a high WAF at all times.
Nothing fancy at all just a cheap sub in the living room to help the small book shelf speakers out. using it for music and HT. The calibration software in the Denon 1611 helps too. The biggest upgrade was from the really crappy Harman Kardon HKTS-7 satellites and center to the really cheap one I have now. (Gear in signature)
In our office/gaming/sewing/hobby room I have a 2.1 system that I really would like to change and DSP, but that's for another year, need to get a new gaming rig first.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I voted no since, whilst I have a REL Studio sub I only use it when watching a film since my main speakers are full range.

 

[PierreV]

Main systems/Main room (Giya or Focal) - 1 or 2 SB16 Ultra - not really required in general, but certainly adds a lot to some stuff (organ music being demo stuff, but quite a bit of modern stuff as well). REW/Umik optimized

Home Theater 5.2 system usually - 2x SB2000 (+ 1 SB16 Ultra depending on the mood). Mostly 2x SB2000 because that's what the AVR supports. I let Audissey do its thing, relatively happy with it, but I do not use that room for music as I don't really like the Klipsch Reference I have there for that use (in stereo). The pentagonal room seems to help for multiple listeners.

Office - LS50 + 1x SB16 Ultra - REW/Umik optimized. A huge gain in bass obviously. Had to tweak the SB Ultra internal EQ a lot to get the response I wanted. I have two FR profiles, one is the "gold standard" and the other one is a bass-boosted one which I use for different types of music.

Gym - 7.1 with one cheap yamaha sub and seven small monitors. Initially, the gym had no sound system, but over the years, the stuff I did not use anymore found a second life there - it isn't intended as an audiophile setup, but the old not really good yamaha sub added a lot

Main systems: could live without, a nice plus in some cases. Home theater: mandatory. Office: not mandatory, but really really great. Does not fully bring to the level of the big systems, especially when listening carefully, but first impression is similar.

General thoughts...

- lots of sub crawling to find the best spots.
- default settings, manual tweaking were hopeless in my case. At least in my experience, you can't expect to drop a subwoofer and maybe toy with the phase/volume and get good results. SB16 Ultra in the office (approx 4.5m by 9m) is usually working at -23db + DSP tweaks to get "gold standard" response.
- when the subs are properly integrated, it just disappears. Adds to the experience, but don't attract attention to themselves.
- somewhat unexpectedly, I also found a spectacular benefit of their use in some natural, live acoustic recording where I could hear the musicians moving around the scene, their footsteps echoing on a wooden scene, etc... It isn't really about music, just the atmosphere, the illusion of being there.

And, of course, let's not forget the best subwoofer accessory you can buy

 

[MattHooper]

I have a pair of JL Audio e110 subwoofers, and their much lauded CR-1 crossover.
I also have a Dspeaker Antimode dual core 2, for bass management.

I've had them laying around for..I dunno...a year and a half or so?

Thus far, I use none of it.

Why?

Lazy. Thought I wanted to finally add subwoofers after being allergic to them for years, and after being persuaded by the endless "add a subwoofer!" threads on forums (and for some other reasons). But the more I read, the more complicated it all got if you follow all the bass-heads "To Do Ir Right" methods. And...it's just such a bloody hassle. I've never heard a subwoofer set up where I didn't find the subwoofer to be obvious. Yes, I know it can be done. But I'm very picky on this and it will be a real b*tch to get it right. Plus the extra gear to place, cords, yeesh.

I'm still hanging on to this stuff for now hoping one day I'll be motivated to get off my butt and set them up. (I did do some temp set ups, which really only served to demonstrate this wasn't going to be easy). I enjoy the sound I'm getting without subs, so it's hard to be motivated.

 

[VMAT4]

No, my speakers, Airmotiv T1's, go low enough for my room. Also, I mode issues in my room somewhere around 30 Hertz.

 

[Severian]

In my home office computer setup, I use DIY subs consisting of 4x JBL CS1214 12" drivers in a couple of cheapo dual sealed box enclosures intended for cars, powered by a Behringer iNuke NU3000 and a Dayton Audio DSP-408 for crossover/EQ. People on AVSForum have gone nuts buying piles of these drivers when they go on sale for $30/each.

I think they sound awesome and I plan on adding four more soon for the hell of it. I run the system extremely bass-boosted most of the time, but the whole thing is designed around doing justice to electronic music. Easy to click the gain on the iNuke down a bit for other genres. They sound pretty good and punch in the midbass thanks to the sealed enclosures, so I run them all the way up to 200hz when I really want the room to rock.

In the living room I have BIC RTR-EV15s that have no need for a sub. I use my receiver's EQ to put a +3dB to -3dB house curve (the horn-loaded tweeter really needs to be tamed a bit) on them and they sound great.

 

[Forman]

No sub in my living room. With a response down to 20Hz 0db and 18Hz -3db there is no need.

Got some 18" PA subs in the basement that on occasion has added some low freq. SPL. Always when the partying gets a little out of hand if im to believe the neighbors... and the police that always show up

 

[trl]

In living I'm using 2 x SVS SB1000 (12") subs to compensate the hard-to-drive subbass from below 40Hz. I was mostly aiming to increase the impact and decrease the THD too. These are connected to a couple of CANTON GLE 496 speakers.

In my bedroom I have a Mackie MR10S mk3 (10") subwoofer connected to my Mackie MR6 mk3 studio monitors. Without the subwoofer connected, the two monitors are lacking the lowest octave.

My kid's bedroom has an APART SUBA165 (8") subwoofer connected to two columns Pioneer speakers.

 

[Robin L]

Powered subs started appearing in thrift stores for cheap a few years ago, I wound up with 4. Top price was $50. When I had a 5.1 system in my garage [$300 worth of equipment from Amvets] there were three subs. I suspect the combo of AKG 167 headphones, the Schiit Magni 3 headphone amp and a lot of recent dance/pop music turned me into some kind of a bass head. After I moved to smaller quarters, I kept a small powered Sonance sub to go along with my a.d.s 400's.

 

[jonfitch]

Not for my nearfield set, I'm using largish 3-way monitors (Kef Reference 1s), listening at 60db at 1m. I can EQ these flat to 20hz (they are flat to 27hz in room anyway) and it won't put any strain on them.

But for my HT setup, definitely need subs or it sounds too lean.

 

[LumbermanSVO]

Yep, definitely runnings subs. I have a pair of Stereo Integrity 24's in my theater room, and a pair of JBL W15GTI's in my bedroom setup.