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Polk R200, Investigation Re: I am very Disappointed with Dull non HiFi sound.

napilopez

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I'd be fascinated (and surprised) to learn that both his tweeters are faulty. I keep seeing this type of logic suggested on this forum and I just don't understand it.
I agree that's it's unusual, but it's similarly unusual that his measurements would differ from at least a dozen other measurements of the same tweeter.
 

beaRA

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I'd be fascinated (and surprised) to learn that both his tweeters are faulty. I keep seeing this type of logic suggested on this forum and I just don't understand it.
Okay so let's reason through this. Here are the scenarios as I see them:

1. ROOSKIE's speakers are defective (or some part is out of spec).

2. Polk has made a deliberate change to the Reserve components after units shipped from June-October 2021.

3. ROOSKIE has made an honest mistake in his measurement method that somehow only affects the R200.

4. ROOSKIE is falsifying measurements to match his subjective impressions.

I would rather give a fellow community member the benefit of the doubt over Polk quality control, so I dismissed #3 & #4. #2 would need another recent sample to corroborate, so I consider #1 to be the most likely based on the available data.
 
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ROOSKIE

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Serial # (same for both)PBBQ042100799
Realized there is a manufacture date on the speaker 4/12/21

I have not yet decided what is the next best thing to do is. A bunch of info below.

Curious if there some tweeter batch variations. Serial no. of speakers tested?

Okay so let's reason through this. Here are the scenarios as I see them:

1. ROOSKIE's speakers are defective (or some part is out of spec).

2. Polk has made a deliberate change to the Reserve components after units shipped from June-October 2021.

3. ROOSKIE has made an honest mistake in his measurement method that somehow only affects the R200.

4. ROOSKIE is falsifying measurements to match his subjective impressions.

I would rather give a fellow community member the benefit of the doubt over Polk quality control, so I dismissed #3 & #4. #2 would need another recent sample to corroborate, so I consider #1 to be the most likely based on the available data.

I believe there is an option 5.

This is going to be a long shot to some and others not a long shot.
The Ring radiator tweeter needs to break in. Yah. The tweeter has support in two spots on the ring.
Inside and outside. I wonder if a compliance variation from one side being slightly less pliable could be creating a phase/output issue at high frequencies.
My tweeters are not 3db off from others the whole way through.
In the gated measurements, the tweeter is fairly close until about 9 or 10k where mine stays flattish and then falls off while other copies rise a few DB.
At this range even a micro difference from one side of the ring to the other seems like a plausible culprit.
I am going to remeasure again and then drive one speaker hard for awhile and then remeasure again. It sure seems like a possibility, as much as anything.

Also
@beaRA again I appreciate your measurements. If willing and able time wise, 30 & 60 degree off axis and Moving Mic Measurements at the listening position (maybe a 20 second summation) would be really interesting in terms of how this speaker performs. A big component of the investigation pertains to the off axis and in room total energy with all the reflections (the room curve) If not no worry.

@ROOSKIE - since your pair is past the return window, if you feel comfortable going inside to take a peek at the crossover here are photos of a crossover before and after an owner upgrade. That way you could see if your pair has any different components than his did. Just a thought.

I took Photos of the Crossover, it seems to match exactly.
Obviously a component could be out of spec but seems like no intentional/accidental component changes.

1646452778982.png


I also took some more Photos.
Well built speaker for the class. Nothing overly special nor far out of ordinary and yet everything seems/feels considered - like a Honda CR-V.
I like the Stamped frame for the woofer lots of venting around the voice coil. Screws hold the magnet to the frame (not just glue)
Very pretty driver for a budget woofer.
1646452999227.png

1646453036258.png

1646453064987.png

1646453088480.png

1646453120975.png

1646453155197.png


@napilopez
Here are the impedance traces.
Though maybe they accidentally used a tweeter with a different impedance but looks like they are both supposed to be 4ohm in other measurements and mine both are.
Screenshot (38).png


Screenshot (39).png


Finally if anyone like to play with the woofer specs in a box program here they are for the 1 driver I took out.
Measured with DATS3 multiple time to confirm the results.
Nice driver based on what I can tell (for the $) Prolly a $50 driver in DIY land. Would love to see a Klipple of the driver.

R200 woofer DATS.jpg

Screenshot (41).png
 

beaRA

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@beaRA again I appreciate your measurements. If willing and able time wise, 30 & 60 degree off axis and Moving Mic Measurements at the listening position (maybe a 20 second summation) would be really interesting in terms of how this speaker performs. A big component of the investigation pertains to the off axis and in room total energy with all the reflections (the room curve) If not no worry.
Until you have a sample we know is representative of what others may receive, I don't think the investigation should extend into the off-axis and in-room total energy.
 
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ROOSKIE

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Until you have a sample we know is representative of what others may receive, I don't think the investigation should extend into the off-axis and in-room total energy.
Howdy, no worry if you feel that and time has limits for attention.
I will say that if your off axis responce matches mine and others and the MMM capture is available we would at least be able to see how one actual room energy curve looks on a unit tested as spec.
I have a strong feeling the predicted in room from the Klipple test is rarely, but sometimes off by an appreciable margin.

These speakers are an ideal test for that as the off axis in speakers Polk has made using their particular ring radiators,(Peerless? at least the old lsim series obviously used that OEM. The new silver plug is made to look like Scan Speak but I highly doubt those are actually SS OEM's) makes a big drop in all of the testing I have seen thus far.

Anyway. Who knows. I also have to decide how much time to invest in this. It is interesting and also so are many others things competing for my attention.
Hosting some guests now for a few days so maybe next week I will try my proposed tweeter "break in". This pair only has a handful of hours on them so if the dual compliance issue is real maybe 20 or 30 hours of constant playing in the garage would help. That would be about my limit before calling Polk and trying another pair.
 

Wave Function

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Does anyone have any thoughts on polk r200 VS elac dbr62? Also, I noticed the - 3 of the polks is lower at 37hz. Would this be appreciably better than the Elac without subs which I think has A - 3 at 40hz?

There's another thread about those.
 

BillyKueek

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I am just reading this and following as I am considering the R200 but I am a dummy on this (the graphs and technical terms means ??? to mr). I am a headphone user. I am curious, has Rooskie reached out to Polk?
 
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Prolix

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My experience with the reserves a while back absolutely didn't match the reviews. I thought it looked, felt, and sounded cheap and unappealing. I think the hype on these was way overblown, like the .2 Elacs.
 
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ROOSKIE

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I am just reading this and following as I am considering the R200 but I am a dummy on this (the graphs and technical terms means ??? to mr). I am a headphone user. I am curious, has Rooskie reached out to Polk?
My experience with the reserves a while back absolutely didn't match the reviews. I thought it looked, felt, and sounded cheap and unappealing. I think the hype on these was way overblown, like the .2 Elacs.
Polk graciously sent 2 new tweeters for me to install.
The agent seemed okay with my referencing all the testing I did.

Right after this I ended up arranging a trade up on the speakers with a good value given to me and so I snapped it up and was never able to comprehensively test the speaker with the new tweets.
Honestly, I think it was just more of the same.

I am just not into the sound of these speakers. Polk service was good.

I think they are hyped & at the same time there is clearly a crowd that likes them. Shrug.

I have the Polk SE20 set here now and the same basic reaction to them.
I think they sound is pretty meh. Still going to do some more testing on them.

I want to like this Polk stuff as it measures fairly well for the cash but the subjective experiences have so far been clear no's for me.
 

Benedium

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I couldn't get over the pointy tweeter and the cabinet size/depth. That's why I sold it. Heheh.
 
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Urvile

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Polk graciously sent 2 new tweeters for me to install.
The agent seemed okay with my referencing all the testing I did.

Right after this I ended up arranging a trade up on the speakers with a good value given to me and so I snapped it up and was never able to comprehensively test the speaker with the new tweets.
Honestly, I think it was just more of the same.

I am just not into the sound of these speakers. Polk service was good.

I think they are hyped & at the same time there is clearly a crowd that likes them. Shrug.

I have the Polk SE20 set here now and the same basic reaction to them.
I think they sound is pretty meh. Still going to do some more testing on them.

I want to like this Polk stuff as it measures fairly well for the cash but the subjective experiences have so far been clear no's for me.
I find this odd because I truly love my R700s, they measure well -- the only caveat was amp power, they sounded good with my wimpy AVR, but after I added the amp, they are beyond impressive.
 

danzilla31

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Polk graciously sent 2 new tweeters for me to install.
The agent seemed okay with my referencing all the testing I did.

Right after this I ended up arranging a trade up on the speakers with a good value given to me and so I snapped it up and was never able to comprehensively test the speaker with the new tweets.
Honestly, I think it was just more of the same.

I am just not into the sound of these speakers. Polk service was good.

I think they are hyped & at the same time there is clearly a crowd that likes them. Shrug.

I have the Polk SE20 set here now and the same basic reaction to them.
I think they sound is pretty meh. Still going to do some more testing on them.

I want to like this Polk stuff as it measures fairly well for the cash but the subjective experiences have so far been clear no's for me.
Okay maybe I'm missing something here but you started this thread with a measurement and idea that the tweeter had severe drop off and this may be playing a part in your feeling the speakers were dull and lifeless?

Measurements that nobody has been able to replicate. Owners on this thread and also reviewers. And your subjective impression is much difference then other owners and reviewers.

So Polk sends you the new tweeters and you don't even take the time to remeasure to see if the old tweeters were causing the issues or to see if you can replicate your results maybe there is user error in your measurements.

Your response is to trade up immediately. And then say it's going to be more of the same. Then you compare your experience with the ES20 as being why all these speakers must be not working for you.

Keeping in mind the ES20 is actually a line below the Polk reference line not a step up. Doesn't even use the same components and those components are less quality.

Something in this doesn't feel right to me I can't pinpoint it but something feels off. I could be wrong but I'm listening and reading what your posting and my gut feels off like something is being missed here. I don't know what it is but my gut is usually been spot on for me. I don't know if it's user error gear setup or something else but something doesn't feel right.

And I am no Polk fan boy. I don't currently own Polk and have no dog in this hunt. My current speakers are golden ear triton 3+ in the bedroom and an all RBH speaker setup in the theater. So I am not biased at all towards Polk.

It's just why post a thread title stating Finding why the R200 have a dull lifeless Non Hi FI sound or whatever. Narrow the problem down to defective tweeters or substandard parts in new products runs the second being a pretty bold statement against Polk. And not even take the time to rerun the tests to see if this was indeed the problem especially if it was #2 because that could affect future members that buy them?

I'm confused but anyways maybe Polk is just not your brand I can respect that you gotta do you when it comes to your ears. As we've discussed in this forum on multiple threads Measurements don't always tell the whole story its your ears that have the final say. Good luck with your new purchase!!!
 
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ROOSKIE

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Okay maybe I'm missing something here but you started this thread with a measurement and idea that the tweeter had severe drop off and this may be playing a part in your feeling the speakers were dull and lifeless?

Measurements that nobody has been able to replicate. Owners on this thread and also reviewers. And your subjective impression is much difference then other owners and reviewers.

So Polk sends you the new tweeters and you don't even take the time to remeasure to see if the old tweeters were causing the issues or to see if you can replicate your results maybe there is user error in your measurements.

Your response is to trade up immediately. And then say it's going to be more of the same. Then you compare your experience with the ES20 as being why all these speakers must be not working for you.

Keeping in mind the ES20 is actually a line below the Polk reference line not a step up. Doesn't even use the same components and those components are less quality.

Something in this doesn't feel right to me I can't pinpoint it but something feels off. I could be wrong but I'm listening and reading what your posting and my gut feels off like something is being missed here. I don't know what it is but my gut is usually been spot on for me. I don't know if it's user error gear setup or something else but something doesn't feel right.

And I am no Polk fan boy. I don't currently own Polk and have no dog in this hunt. My current speakers are golden ear triton 3+ in the bedroom and an all RBH speaker setup in the theater. So I am not biased at all towards Polk.

It's just why post a thread title stating Finding why the R200 have a dull lifeless Non Hi FI sound or whatever. Narrow the problem down to defective tweeters or substandard parts in new products runs the second being a pretty bold statement against Polk. And not even take the time to rerun the tests to see if this was indeed the problem especially if it was #2 because that could affect future members that buy them?

I'm confused but anyways maybe Polk is just not your brand I can respect that you gotta do you when it comes to your ears. As we've discussed in this forum on multiple threads Measurements don't always tell the whole story its your ears that have the final say. Good luck with your new purchase!!!
1st I would suggest you don't confuse my influence with an HI-FI Youtuber with 100k subscribers. My post is in the 'back' of a forum and has been read by a handful of people and for me this is (currently)a hobby.
2nd my initial postings were I think very detailed and obviously show I spent my time on this.
3rd have you ever stopped a movie halfway through that was supposed to be good and then told your friend who loved it and recommended you'd deff give it a shot later and then just never did? Because you moved on because it was just time to do something else for fun?
4th WABI SABI, nothing is ever finished, perfect or complete

I had to make a decision about investing more time and also about making a quick deal that was good for me.
Sometimes I lose a lot trying speakers and despite how much gear I have on hand right now I am not financially wealthy.
I will have to sell most of this before long.
I don't think you understand or respect how much time I already put into them. I am not getting paid here and I do it for fun, my personal fun.
Just changing the tweets alone when the new ones arrive is an absolute pain in the ass. Looks like it wouldn't be but you do it and find out. (& I have a very large amount of DIY type of experience and a garage full of tools and materials)

But the meat is that by the time the tweeters arrived I had actually lost interest and did not feel like I personally was missing out by moving on.
Yes, it is a bummer & yes I felt some obligation toward testing for the larger community and started but ended up running into time issues and then had to part with that set.
I actually have several projects like this that have happened along with others that for some reason I have spent even more time on.

I actually just had to go over a set of $1500 speakers, spending 5 or 6 hours to find out what MIGHT have been causing some issues. Emphasis on MIGHT as in maybe after fixing this issue they will perform better and maybe they will not. 5-6hrs man. Yes by choice.

I do understand you are bummed and why.
Easy solution.
YOU Buy a set, get a Mic and measure some. Or send a set to me another set on your dime and I will try again to test them when I can zero guarantee about when though.

I have currently 20+ pairs of speakers here that I am 'testing' and another 20 or so already moved on. Which is insane and really fun at times. Yet this is all hobby.

COMPARED MORE OR LESS WITH OBJECTIVE DATA
  • Some sets I have tried really do not sound as good as they measure - to me (do I have to say 'to me' or is that self evident?).
  • Some sets have sounded better.
  • Others have pretty much walked the line and performed about what I would anticipate based on my interpretations of the data here and elsewhere.
COMPARED MORE OR LESS WITH SUBJECTIVE REVIEWS AROUND THE WEB
  • I think a good number of subjective reviews have been fairly accurate to what I have heard spel
  • Another good number of them have been notably different
  • Even from the same reviewer

Right now I have 3 speaker sets here that really don't sound as good as all the subjective reviews, to me they appear hyped and or promoted for benefit.

Keep in mind all notable Youtube reviewers and all notable Print reviews are paid reviews. Either directly or indirectly. I have no issue with that and actually wish I could get funds for doing something fun. I do keep it in mind however that money and influence are at stake for most reviewers.

As far as your gut.
I would never ask someone not to trust their gut. That is your own personal link to whatever one's gut links to.

I can say I want to like Polk and have zero against them. Nothing. I even almost purchased a set of L200's in mint opened box for $650 about a month ago from AudioAdvisor but someone else grabbed them right before I could. (I tried them briefly a few years ago in my old house and remembered liking them and would have been up for testing and measuring them again to see if I still like them and largely because at $650 I could surly move them on without loosing $)
I find this odd because I truly love my R700s, they measure well -- the only caveat was amp power, they sounded good with my wimpy AVR, but after I added the amp, they are beyond impressive.
Great.
Totally, you find it odd.
I get it and so do I.
That is why I stated this.
& As I said there is clearly a crowd that likes them.
To be clear I am not telling people not to like them if they do.

I suppose we all have something to be skeptical of.
So you listen fairly loudly?
How 'wimpy' is your AVR and what amp did you upgrade to?
What SPL did the amp start to become notably more capable vs the AVR or is this a global effect?
Unless you are really listening loudly (and I know I do that regularly myself and use 400watt amps) I am skeptical that amp transformed the sound.
That said it is of course possible.

This is a case where you could blind test yourself if you have the time and interest. Match the amp and AVR to a tight 0.1db if possible and then get another person to help you swap wiring at the speaker. It would not be the most complete 'controlled double blind' study but it would be interesting.

Listen at averages of 75db, 80db, 85db then 90db(starting to get quite loud for an average so keep that in mind)

I'd be very curious what you find.
Of course this will take a whole day to do right the 1st time you try so plan for the time.
 
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danzilla31

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1st I would suggest you don't confuse my influence with an HI-FI Youtuber with 100k subscribers. My post is in the 'back' of a forum and has been read by a handful of people and for me this is (currently)a hobby.
2nd my initial postings were I think very detailed and obviously show I spent my time on this.
3rd have you ever stopped a movie halfway through that was supposed to be good and then told your friend who loved it and recommended you'd deff give it a shot later and then just never did? Because you moved on because it was just time to do something else for fun?
4th WABI SABI, nothing is ever finished, perfect or complete

I had to make a decision about investing more time and also about making a quick deal that was good for me.
Sometimes I lose a lot trying speakers and despite how much gear I have on hand right now I am not financially wealthy.
I will have to sell most of this before long.
I don't think you understand or respect how much time I already put into them. I am not getting paid here and I do it for fun, my personal fun.
Just changing the tweets alone when the new ones arrive is an absolute pain in the ass. Looks like it wouldn't be but you do it and find out. (& I have a very large amount of DIY type of experience and a garage full of tools and materials)

But the meat is that by the time the tweeters arrived I had actually lost interest and did not feel like I personally was missing out by moving on.
Yes, it is a bummer & yes I felt some obligation toward testing for the larger community and started but ended up running into time issues and then had to part with that set.
I actually have several projects like this that have happened along with others that for some reason I have spent even more time on.

I actually just had to go over a set of $1500 speakers, spending 5 or 6 hours to find out what MIGHT have been causing some issues. Emphasis on MIGHT as in maybe after fixing this issue they will perform better and maybe they will not. 5-6hrs man. Yes by choice.

I do understand you are bummed and why.
Easy solution.
YOU Buy a set, get a Mic and measure some. Or send a set to me another set on your dime and I will try again to test them when I can zero guarantee about when though.

I have currently 20+ pairs of speakers here that I am 'testing' and another 20 or so already moved on. Which is insane and really fun at times. Yet this is all hobby.

COMPARED MORE OR LESS WITH OBJECTIVE DATA
  • Some sets I have tried really do not sound as good as they measure - to me (do I have to say 'to me' or is that self evident?).
  • Some sets have sounded better.
  • Others have pretty much walked the line and performed about what I would anticipate based on my interpretations of the data here and elsewhere.
COMPARED MORE OR LESS WITH SUBJECTIVE REVIEWS AROUND THE WEB
  • I think a good number of subjective reviews have been fairly accurate to what I have heard spel
  • Another good number of them have been notably different
  • Even from the same reviewer

Right now I have 3 speaker sets here that really don't sound as good as all the subjective reviews, to me they appear hyped and or promoted for benefit.

Keep in mind all notable Youtube reviewers and all notable Print reviews are paid reviews. Either directly or indirectly. I have no issue with that and actually wish I could get funds for doing something fun. I do keep it in mind however that money and influence are at stake for most reviewers.

As far as your gut.
I would never ask someone not to trust their gut. That is your own personal link to whatever one's gut links to.

I can say I want to like Polk and have zero against them. Nothing. I even almost purchased a set of L200's in mint opened box for $650 about a month ago from AudioAdvisor but someone else grabbed them right before I could. (I tried them briefly a few years ago in my old house and remembered liking them and would have been up for testing and measuring them again to see if I still like them and largely because at $650 I could surly move them on without loosing $)

Great.
Totally, you find it odd.
I get it and so do I.
That is why I stated this.
& As I said there is clearly a crowd that likes them.
To be clear I am not telling people not to like them if they do.

I suppose we all have something to be skeptical of.
So you listen fairly loudly?
How 'wimpy' is your AVR and what amp did you upgrade to?
What SPL did the amp start to become notably more capable vs the AVR or is this a global effect?
Unless you are really listening loudly (and I know I do that regularly myself and use 400watt amps) I am skeptical that amp transformed the sound.
That said it is of course possible.

This is a case where you could blind test yourself if you have the time and interest. Match the amp and AVR to a tight 0.1db if possible and then get another person to help you swap wiring at the speaker. It would not be the most complete 'controlled double blind' study but it would be interesting.

Listen at averages of 75db, 80db, 85db then 90db(starting to get quite loud for an average so keep that in mind)

I'd be very curious what you find.
Of course this will take a whole day to do right the 1st time you try so plan for the time.
You keep saying in multiple posts these products are overhyped but your measurements and experience are literally off of every other person who has reviewed or tested this gear.

We had an opportunity to see if you were right about your thoughts or your questions on why you were experiencing this issue. But you've chosen to move on. So we will never know

Eh? Oh well. As you said it's your hobby and your right to do what you want with it. Shame really because this thread had me very curious and I was interested in the ououtcome. If a product is overhyped I would be wanting to know if I every decide to buy it. Please excuse my disappointment as I was following and interested in your results.
 
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ROOSKIE

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You keep saying in multiple posts these products are overhyped but your measurements and experience are literally off of every other person who has reviewed or tested this gear.

We had an opportunity to see if you were right about your thoughts or your questions on why you were experiencing this issue. But you've chosen to move on. So we will never know

Eh? Oh well. As you said it's your hobby and your right to do what you want with it. Shame really because this thread had me very curious and I was interested in the ououtcome. If a product is overhyped I would be wanting to know if I every decide to buy it. Please excuse my disappointment as I was following and interested in your results.
I totally understand you are bummed, I would be (and am myself) & many times a thread has ended early and as an interested reader I have been like WTF?

It has been almost a year until anyone even checked in here so I actually thought that maybe it wasn't something anyone really missed. I do apologize for that. I really have no agenda, truly just cut the cord on this one. & trust me in the last year I have cut that project chord on a good handful of other things as well both audio and not audio related. It is the byproduct of having too many interests.

I will admit that many people have positively reviewed them. I am not sure it is literally everyone, there have been several people chiming in that they had a similar experience and or didn't like the speaker. I am aware of the reviews and have read or watched many. At any rate again the impetus for my original post was driven by the disparity between my experience and the general review population. I felt it was larger than normal. It is normal for some variation in opinion of course.

Bear in mind I am only talking about the R200 and the now mentioned Polk SE20 here and with specific regard for comparing them with other great speakers in their 'class'.
They don't sound bad to me, just rather notably less good than what some of my comparables are. In 2023 most stuff sounds good enough. Example right now on a very oversimplified scale I would rate the Polk SE20 a 6 or 6.5 on a 1-10 scale(and the R200 was about the same rating). It does a lot right. That 6 or 6.5 isn't so bad but if I was giving a review it isn't good enough to easily recommend IMHO. For the right person who knows what it does and doesn't do well it could be great. For someone looking for a unicorn, keep moving.

Anyway, sorry friend.
 

beaRA

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Bear in mind I am only talking about the R200 and the now mentioned Polk SE20 here and with specific regard for comparing them with other great speakers in their 'class'.
They don't sound bad to me, just rather notably less good than what some of my comparables are. In 2023 most stuff sounds good enough. Example right now on a very oversimplified scale I would rate the Polk SE20 a 6 or 6.5 on a 1-10 scale(and the R200 was about the same rating). It does a lot right. That 6 or 6.5 isn't so bad but if I was giving a review it isn't good enough to easily recommend IMHO. For the right person who knows what it does and doesn't do well it could be great. For someone looking for a unicorn, keep moving.
This is the problem. You keep trying to rate the R200 or provide buying advice without confirming that your experience is representative of what anyone else would experience when listening to a non-defective R200. I totally get needing to just move on, just don't conclude that your experience is transferable.
 
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ROOSKIE

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This is the problem. You keep trying to rate the R200 or provide buying advice without confirming that your experience is representative of what anyone else would experience when listening to a non-defective R200. I totally get needing to just move on, just don't conclude that your experience is transferable.
Look, I am not trying to get the last word in here but I really don't think that I 'keep trying to rate the R200 or provide buying advice'.

I have rarely & barely mentioned the R200 to anyone over the last 10months.
Someone posted on this thread and I felt obliged to make an update even if it was to essentially let a few folks down.

It is pretty clear at least to me what context I am discussing them in. It is written permanently on this forum and most of it in this thread.

The SE20 set is right here right now by the way.
The point in rating it today was to provide context that speakers in general now in 2023 are very often very decent, so even a speaker that I don't really like is still likely going to sound okay to me. There are not many 1,2,3,4,5 out of 10 products coming from reputable manufacturers.

The 6-6.5/10 rating is for that speaker and while I put the R200 in ( ) next to it I am really using the SE20 as the example there. But yes that R200 set that I had was a 6-6.5/10 on an oversimped scale.

I realize this should be taken with a grain of salt without doing a full retest.

If I was ever in position to do so I would not make a youtube review or a published review or other professional type without fully testing a 2nd set of R200s.
 

Urvile

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Great.
Totally, you find it odd.
I get it and so do I.
That is why I stated this.
& As I said there is clearly a crowd that likes them.
To be clear I am not telling people not to like them if they do.

I suppose we all have something to be skeptical of.
So you listen fairly loudly?
How 'wimpy' is your AVR and what amp did you upgrade to?
What SPL did the amp start to become notably more capable vs the AVR or is this a global effect?
Unless you are really listening loudly (and I know I do that regularly myself and use 400watt amps) I am skeptical that amp transformed the sound.
That said it is of course possible.

This is a case where you could blind test yourself if you have the time and interest. Match the amp and AVR to a tight 0.1db if possible and then get another person to help you swap wiring at the speaker. It would not be the most complete 'controlled double blind' study but it would be interesting.

Listen at averages of 75db, 80db, 85db then 90db(starting to get quite loud for an average so keep that in mind)

I'd be very curious what you find.
Of course this will take a whole day to do right the 1st time you try so plan for the time.
Maybe odd was the wrong term to use, maybe I should have said surprised? I did not say I was skeptical, nor was it my intention for you to infer that I was skeptical.
I tested with two AVR the latest was a Denon AVR-X3800H (105w @ 8 ohms per channel) , the amp was a Buckeye Purifi 3 channel (425w @ 4ohm per channel). Even though Polk calls both the R200, and the R700 as 8 Ohm speakers / It's my belief that they are both 4 Ohm speakers (I have to real experience with the R200 so it's conjecture for the R200 ). With my first AVR a Onkyo tx-nr6050 there was audible clipping, even at medium and low volumes. No clipping that I could tell with the Denon, and yes it's subjective that the with the amp it does sound better. I listen at different volumes and tend to listen much louder when it's a movie than with music.

To repeat, I should have said surprised, nor did I want you to infer skeptical. For three 4 Ohm speakers (Nominal Impedance Range 3.4 ohms → 4 ohms)
, the AVRs were underpowered, with recommended speaker power 50 - 300W at 4 Ohms.
 
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ROOSKIE

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Maybe odd was the wrong term to use, maybe I should have said surprised? I did not say I was skeptical, nor was it my intention for you to infer that I was skeptical.
I tested with two AVR the latest was a Denon AVR-X3800H (105w @ 8 ohms per channel) , the amp was a Buckeye Purifi 3 channel (425w @ 4ohm per channel). Even though Polk calls both the R200, and the R700 as 8 Ohm speakers / It's my belief that they are both 4 Ohm speakers (I have to real experience with the R200 so it's conjecture for the R200 ). With my first AVR a Onkyo tx-nr6050 there was audible clipping, even at medium and low volumes. No clipping that I could tell with the Denon, and yes it's subjective that the with the amp it does sound better. I listen at different volumes and tend to listen much louder when it's a movie than with music.

To repeat, I should have said surprised, nor did I want you to infer skeptical. For three 4 Ohm speakers (Nominal Impedance Range 3.4 ohms → 4 ohms)
, the AVRs were underpowered, with recommended speaker power 50 - 300W at 4 Ohms.
Yes - it was a bit of conjecture on my part to extrapolate 'skeptical' from 'odd'.
I will say I don't mind skepticism and really wouldn't fault anyone for being skeptical. It is good these days with all the info presented by so many people.

So yes, odd and surprising it truly is. I have found a few oddities with the audio testing I have done. Each time it is definitely extra interesting trying to make sense of it and often I end up unable to. Which is also kind of nice, I do enjoy a bit of mystery.

The R200 should definetly be nominally labled as "4ohm".
It dips down just under 4 ohms in many areas, more than most speakers.
Including 163-480hrz which has a lot of energy in most media.
It is also under 4ohms from 4000-20,000hrz which is fine but will cause response issues with some amps there.(which is something I checked out)
There are a couple spots where the electrical Phase angle is steep and the speaker is below 6 ohms which for cheap electronics could be an issue.
This is as true of a 4ohm speaker as there is.
(Polk calls it 8,6,4ohm compatible with a 3.8ohm min. It should just be called 4ohm IMHO)

If the Onkyo was clipping at low & medium volume that was not a power issue but likley something was triggering a protection circuit or the AVR had an issue/defect. It is also possible the inputs were being over driven somehow.

ONKYO's TX-NR6050 Specs are decent, they rate some items down to 3ohms, if true this amp should power just about anything typical to 100db peaks at 10feet away. If it did not then friend I am leaning toward defect... or horrible engineering. (which it seems some AVR's are sporting)

1675826164531.png


The Denon as I am sure you know was reviewed here and did fine IMO. It probably has a touch more power than the ONKYO but really just a 1db or 2 of extra juice for 2mains, maybe. So again I think if the DENON performed fine but the ONKYO did not they seems to be something wrong. They basically have the same real world power output.

Who could fault anyone for buying that Purifi?
I am thinking about one myself.
I have a bunch of amps here but no SOTA amps.
I am really interested in doing that blind comparison I mentioned with a SOTA Purifi or two bridged Benchmarks and a basic good high powered amp.

There is no question that with some speakers when I crank it up that 400watts that I have sure seems to do a better job than my 125watt/channel stuff. I have yet to blind test any of these amps here though, I keep planning it. Soon. It will be a lot easier than speakers which I also have plans to blind test some of them. I am really curious how biased my sighted testing is. If Harman ever calls me up for being a test subject I will be out the door and on the way rain, sleet or snow.
 

Urvile

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Yes - it was a bit of conjecture on my part to extrapolate 'skeptical' from 'odd'.
I will say I don't mind skepticism and really wouldn't fault anyone for being skeptical. It is good these days with all the info presented by so many people.

So yes, odd and surprising it truly is. I have found a few oddities with the audio testing I have done. Each time it is definitely extra interesting trying to make sense of it and often I end up unable to. Which is also kind of nice, I do enjoy a bit of mystery.

The R200 should definetly be nominally labled as "4ohm".
It dips down just under 4 ohms in many areas, more than most speakers.
Including 163-480hrz which has a lot of energy in most media.
It is also under 4ohms from 4000-20,000hrz which is fine but will cause response issues with some amps there.(which is something I checked out)
There are a couple spots where the electrical Phase angle is steep and the speaker is below 6 ohms which for cheap electronics could be an issue.
This is as true of a 4ohm speaker as there is.
(Polk calls it 8,6,4ohm compatible with a 3.8ohm min. It should just be called 4ohm IMHO)

If the Onkyo was clipping at low & medium volume that was not a power issue but likley something was triggering a protection circuit or the AVR had an issue/defect. It is also possible the inputs were being over driven somehow.

ONKYO's TX-NR6050 Specs are decent, they rate some items down to 3ohms, if true this amp should power just about anything typical to 100db peaks at 10feet away. If it did not then friend I am leaning toward defect... or horrible engineering. (which it seems some AVR's are sporting)

View attachment 263246

The Denon as I am sure you know was reviewed here and did fine IMO. It probably has a touch more power than the ONKYO but really just a 1db or 2 of extra juice for 2mains, maybe. So again I think if the DENON performed fine but the ONKYO did not they seems to be something wrong. They basically have the same real world power output.

Who could fault anyone for buying that Purifi?
I am thinking about one myself.
I have a bunch of amps here but no SOTA amps.
I am really interested in doing that blind comparison I mentioned with a SOTA Purifi or two bridged Benchmarks and a basic good high powered amp.

There is no question that with some speakers when I crank it up that 400watts that I have sure seems to do a better job than my 125watt/channel stuff. I have yet to blind test any of these amps here though, I keep planning it. Soon. It will be a lot easier than speakers which I also have plans to blind test some of them. I am really curious how biased my sighted testing is. If Harman ever calls me up for being a test subject I will be out the door and on the way rain, sleet or snow.
Thank you for your thoughtful, intelligent, and diligent reply.
 
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