Polk R200, Investigation Re: I am very Disappointed with Dull non HiFi sound.

[Urvile]

<snip>

If the Onkyo was clipping at low & medium volume that was not a power issue but likley something was triggering a protection circuit or the AVR had an issue/defect. It is also possible the inputs were being over driven somehow.

ONKYO's TX-NR6050 Specs are decent, they rate some items down to 3ohms, if true this amp should power just about anything typical to 100db peaks at 10feet away. If it did not then friend I am leaning toward defect... or horrible engineering. (which it seems some AVR's are sporting)

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The Denon as I am sure you know was reviewed here and did fine IMO. It probably has a touch more power than the ONKYO but really just a 1db or 2 of extra juice for 2mains, maybe. So again I think if the DENON performed fine but the ONKYO did not they seems to be something wrong. They basically have the same real world power output.

Denon AVR-X3800H Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X3800H 9.4 Home Theater Audio/Video Receiver. It was kindly drop shipped to me by a member and costs US $1,699. Not much to say about the look of the unit as it is pretty much similar/same as last generations. Here is the back panel...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Who could fault anyone for buying that Purifi?
I am thinking about one myself.
I have a bunch of amps here but no SOTA amps.
I am really interested in doing that blind comparison I mentioned with a SOTA Purifi or two bridged Benchmarks and a basic good high powered amp.

There is no question that with some speakers when I crank it up that 400watts that I have sure seems to do a better job than my 125watt/channel stuff. I have yet to blind test any of these amps here though, I keep planning it. Soon. It will be a lot easier than speakers which I also have plans to blind test some of them. I am really curious how biased my sighted testing is. If Harman ever calls me up for being a test subject I will be out the door and on the way rain, sleet or snow.

I was of the opinion that it was a defect in the Onkyo. Not knowing for sure that it was a defect, or a real limit, and after lots of research mostly to do with the dynamic between ohms and watts, and some prompting by other members of this forum, I decided not take a chance, and pre-order the amp (with a four plus month wait time) and looked for a reasonably priced avr / avp with the ability to be a preamp. I selected the Denon (even after Amir's review) and got it a month before the Buckeye amp. That's been my A/B testing to this point. So some of my opinion is objective, the Onkyo was flawed. Some is subjective, the speakers sounded good with Denon, and even better as a pre amp to the Buckeye.

P.S. Buckeye was upfront about the wait time and I've been nothing but pleased with the service.

 

[JohnBooty]

You keep saying in multiple posts these products are overhyped but your measurements and experience are literally off of every other person who has reviewed or tested this gear.

I've screwed up measurements myself. So it's definitely possible. However: in the initial post, Rooskie stated that he also measured a number of other speakers alongside the Polks. If he was doing something wrong, it would have shown up in the measurements of the other speakers. So I don't believe that's the case. Or are you accusing Rooskie of fabricating this whole thing or something?

You keep trying to rate the R200 or provide buying advice without confirming that your experience is representative of what anyone else would experience

Sorry, I absolutely don't get that impression at all. To me this thread looked like the journey of a guy who took a bunch of measurements to figure out why his speakers sounded bad to his ears. He shared his objective findings with the rest of the community and I felt the objective bits were clearly distinct from the subjective bits. We would be lucky to have more posts like this, even though as a community we didn't wind up reaching a satisfying answer. I respect anybody that pulls out the calibrated mic and shares their findings.

I really have no agenda, truly just cut the cord on this one. & trust me in the last year I have cut that project chord on a good handful of other things as well both audio and not audio related. It is the byproduct of having too many interests.

That's a healthy thing to do! And, like you said, it's not like this thread had seen any posts in nearly a year.

 

[danzilla31]

I've screwed up measurements myself. So it's definitely possible. However: in the initial post, Rooskie stated that he also measured a number of other speakers alongside the Polks. If he was doing something wrong, it would have shown up in the measurements of the other speakers. So I don't believe that's the case. Or are you accusing Rooskie of fabricating this whole thing or something?


Sorry, I absolutely don't get that impression at all. To me this thread looked like the journey of a guy who took a bunch of measurements to figure out why his speakers sounded bad to his ears. He shared his objective findings with the rest of the community and I felt the objective bits were clearly distinct from the subjective bits. We would be lucky to have more posts like this, even though as a community we didn't wind up reaching a satisfying answer. I respect anybody that pulls out the calibrated mic and shares their findings.


That's a healthy thing to do! And, like you said, it's not like this thread had seen any posts in nearly a year.

You took one paragraph out of my post and have run a question with it. If you read the entire post then you know I explained that I had become quiet interested in his results and was dissapointed he didnt rerun the tests so we could have reached a conclusion. I even apologized at the end of that post if my disappointment had come across the wrong way.

In a previous post I did say something had me confused and I felt in my gut like something might be off either in testing, gear set up, or room interaction. Usually when my test results deviate from others testing so drastically I often find it's something I've done on my end. And usually some totally random mistake I couldn't have foreseen. Like what happened with Buckeyes amps in his Purifi 3 channel as an example. Poor guy tore heaven and hell apart to find out what was causing the abnormal deviation turns out it was a teenie tiny part used on a binding post that slipped by his rigorous testing due to circumstances he could not have foreseen.

If I had wanted to accuse him of something I would have. I have no problem with speaking my mind if that was the case.

Are you accusing me of something?

 

[danzilla31]

What a boondoggle thread. Evidence that Audiosciencereview has become a synonym or "meh".

Think it's time to simply listen to some music.

Yeah it sure comes off that way but I do believe the OP after interacting with him is genuinely having fun and posted to interact with people in good faith.

He was more then super cool with me when I was confused and had some questions. But 100% I'm going to be cranking some music before going into work!

 

[JohnBooty]

Sounds like we're all good. Enjoy the music!

 

[beaRA]

Sorry, I absolutely don't get that impression at all. To me this thread looked like the journey of a guy who took a bunch of measurements to figure out why his speakers sounded bad to his ears. He shared his objective findings with the rest of the community and I felt the objective bits were clearly distinct from the subjective bits. We would be lucky to have more posts like this, even though as a community we didn't wind up reaching a satisfying answer. I respect anybody that pulls out the calibrated mic and shares their findings.

I don't think @ROOSKIE is a bad dude, and I do believe he was engaging in the investigation of this thread in good faith. I just wanted to remind him to avoid making and sharing conclusions based on a likely defective sample, as he has done in other threads:

GR Research Klipsch RP-600M Upgrade Review (speaker)

LS50s measure really well, so you'd expect people to enjoy them A bit of experience and you suddently realize that people don't enjoy speakers with no bass:) That said, I understand KEF owner (maybe he got them after a review? hehe)

audiosciencereview.com

GR Research Klipsch RP-600M Upgrade Review (speaker)

' ? You make it sound as though Klipsch themselves made this "fix" kit, which is obviously not the case. No but there newer versions go also into a more linear way.

audiosciencereview.com

 

[GiFi]

1st I would suggest you don't confuse my influence with an HI-FI Youtuber with 100k subscribers. My post is in the 'back' of a forum and has been read by a handful of people and for me this is (currently)a hobby.
2nd my initial postings were I think very detailed and obviously show I spent my time on this.
3rd have you ever stopped a movie halfway through that was supposed to be good and then told your friend who loved it and recommended you'd deff give it a shot later and then just never did? Because you moved on because it was just time to do something else for fun?
4th WABI SABI, nothing is ever finished, perfect or complete

I had to make a decision about investing more time and also about making a quick deal that was good for me.
Sometimes I lose a lot trying speakers and despite how much gear I have on hand right now I am not financially wealthy.
I will have to sell most of this before long.
I don't think you understand or respect how much time I already put into them. I am not getting paid here and I do it for fun, my personal fun.
Just changing the tweets alone when the new ones arrive is an absolute pain in the ass. Looks like it wouldn't be but you do it and find out. (& I have a very large amount of DIY type of experience and a garage full of tools and materials)

But the meat is that by the time the tweeters arrived I had actually lost interest and did not feel like I personally was missing out by moving on.
Yes, it is a bummer & yes I felt some obligation toward testing for the larger community and started but ended up running into time issues and then had to part with that set.
I actually have several projects like this that have happened along with others that for some reason I have spent even more time on.

I actually just had to go over a set of $1500 speakers, spending 5 or 6 hours to find out what MIGHT have been causing some issues. Emphasis on MIGHT as in maybe after fixing this issue they will perform better and maybe they will not. 5-6hrs man. Yes by choice.

Kef r3 vs Wharfdale Linton 85 (My comparison)

Kef’s parent company is GP, which is Chinese. To be more correct Gold Peak is a Hong Kong based company. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Peak

audiosciencereview.com

I do understand you are bummed and why.
Easy solution.
YOU Buy a set, get a Mic and measure some. Or send a set to me another set on your dime and I will try again to test them when I can zero guarantee about when though.

I have currently 20+ pairs of speakers here that I am 'testing' and another 20 or so already moved on. Which is insane and really fun at times. Yet this is all hobby.

COMPARED MORE OR LESS WITH OBJECTIVE DATA

• Some sets I have tried really do not sound as good as they measure - to me (do I have to say 'to me' or is that self evident?).
• Some sets have sounded better.
• Others have pretty much walked the line and performed about what I would anticipate based on my interpretations of the data here and elsewhere.

COMPARED MORE OR LESS WITH SUBJECTIVE REVIEWS AROUND THE WEB

• I think a good number of subjective reviews have been fairly accurate to what I have heard spel
• Another good number of them have been notably different
• Even from the same reviewer

Right now I have 3 speaker sets here that really don't sound as good as all the subjective reviews, to me they appear hyped and or promoted for benefit.

Keep in mind all notable Youtube reviewers and all notable Print reviews are paid reviews. Either directly or indirectly. I have no issue with that and actually wish I could get funds for doing something fun. I do keep it in mind however that money and influence are at stake for most reviewers.

As far as your gut.
I would never ask someone not to trust their gut. That is your own personal link to whatever one's gut links to.

I can say I want to like Polk and have zero against them. Nothing. I even almost purchased a set of L200's in mint opened box for $650 about a month ago from AudioAdvisor but someone else grabbed them right before I could. (I tried them briefly a few years ago in my old house and remembered liking them and would have been up for testing and measuring them again to see if I still like them and largely because at $650 I could surly move them on without loosing $)

Great.
Totally, you find it odd.
I get it and so do I.
That is why I stated this.
& As I said there is clearly a crowd that likes them.
To be clear I am not telling people not to like them if they do.

I suppose we all have something to be skeptical of.
So you listen fairly loudly?
How 'wimpy' is your AVR and what amp did you upgrade to?
What SPL did the amp start to become notably more capable vs the AVR or is this a global effect?
Unless you are really listening loudly (and I know I do that regularly myself and use 400watt amps) I am skeptical that amp transformed the sound.
That said it is of course possible.

This is a case where you could blind test yourself if you have the time and interest. Match the amp and AVR to a tight 0.1db if possible and then get another person to help you swap wiring at the speaker. It would not be the most complete 'controlled double blind' study but it would be interesting.

Listen at averages of 75db, 80db, 85db then 90db(starting to get quite loud for an average so keep that in mind)

I'd be very curious what you find.
Of course this will take a whole day to do right the 1st time you try so plan for the time.

Hi, can i ask you manufacturer and model of the pinnacles tweeters? Many thanks

 

[ROOSKIE]

Hi, can i ask you manufacturer and model of the pinnacles tweeters? Many thanks

Hi, this is a thread about the Polk R200.
While Polk more than likely contracts out the tweeters, they most certainly are not an off the shelf model or stock OEM model. Furthermore any part number on a driver coming out of a Polk speaker is a Polk internal part number. It would never have another brand and part number like a driver from PartsExpress does. The company is to large. If you are asking as someone looking to buy some, note that a company the size of Polk would be unlikely to sell you the tweeters without you providing proof of a speaker purchase. To get replacements I had to provide a lot of information to them even though I had purchased the speakers directly from them. You could try eBay for spare parts or an authorized repairs shop that deals in reparing the Polk brand.

 

[GiFi]

Hi, this is a thread about the Polk R200.
While Polk more than likely contracts out the tweeters, they most certainly are not an off the shelf model or stock OEM model. Furthermore any part number on a driver coming out of a Polk speaker is a Polk internal part number. It would never have another brand and part number like a driver from PartsExpress does. The company is to large. If you are asking as someone looking to buy some, note that a company the size of Polk would be unlikely to sell you the tweeters without you providing proof of a speaker purchase. To get replacements I had to provide a lot of information to them even though I had purchased the speakers directly from them. You could try eBay for spare parts or an authorized repairs shop that deals in reparing the Polk brand.

thanks, do you have a picture of the tweeters?
Many thanks

 

[ROOSKIE]

I think I only have pictures of the woofers.
The tweeters did not look like any DIY tweeters I have ever seen available.

Peerless likely made them but they seemed entirely custom for Polk.

They were 4ohm nominal and had a very low Fs of around 450hrz.
Ferrite/ceramic magnets.
A strange face place that was held on by neo-magnets and so tight in the driver cutout that it makes removing the tweeters extremely difficult.

 

[beagleman]

@ROOSKIE

I know this is an older thread now, but just curious what you did with the (replacement) set of tweeters Polk sent out to you?
Not sure I saw mention of that in your previous comments, excuse me if that was addressed.

I am looking at purchasing a Pair of the Polk R200's here soon, and this thread caught my attention.