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Polar response is not the key
- Thread starter Audiojim
- Start date
The lectures summarise it but his book can be found here
https://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reprod...y&sprefix=Floyd+toole,aps,146&sr=8-1-fkmrnull
As is the off axis response is to me. However it isn't to you.
The point is that the scientific testing demonstrated the "obvious" to be correct as it did regarding the off axis response.
Also, obvious or not there are many speakers out there, including many high end ones, that can't even get that right. Again it's measurements that demonstrate this and provide factual information, not dubious inaccurate subjective opinion.
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- Thread Starter
- #144
Which is more important off or on axis?
Every recording is mixed and mastered differently. If it was done on a bright speaker but played back on a flat measuring speaker, it will be too dull. If it was done on a dull speaker then playing it on a flat speaker it becomes too bright. Furthermore, all of this is just preference.
Go away and watch the lectures and read the book. Toole covers all of this. I'm putting you on ignore.
It's not just one paper, it's a big pile of peer-reviewed studies spanning multiple decades from many different authors, which together form the foundation of the modern understanding of perception of loudspeakers. If you want a comprehensive review of these studies, read the book that was mentioned so many times in this thread that I've lost count. If you truly insist on reading only a single paper, then I would suggest this one which is probably the most compelling.
This is also addressed in the boo... gah, never mind, I give up.
Wise.
- Thread Starter
- #149
What page?
These are times when I miss @Thomas savage the most.
- Thread Starter
- #151
stereophile measures speakers many are high end but few of them are ruler flat. The ruler flat speakers I've heard along with revel (which is based on tooles research) sounded awful. How do you explain that!
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Awful to you = awful to your taste. Nothing wrong with that. The papers that show predictive power in terms of preference for ruler flat frequency response or anything else are just the observation of a correlation that seems to work for most people. There is nothing wrong with having different tastes than most people. What is wrong is to deny the existence of that correlation through magical thinking.
If you wanted to attack these papers you would attack them on things like statistical/sample size issues, manufacturer sponsored bias or other objective issues. You would formalize a (several?) better predictor(s), a set of predictors, a compound weighted set of predictors etc... then you would test those predictors and would demonstrate better correlation or predictive power.
The wife walking into a room and having a "Ah!" moment doesn't count, if only because after millennia of research wives haven't been modeled yet.
Pierre, please don’t feed this.
Awful to you = awful to your taste. Nothing wrong with that.
The wife walking into a room and having a "Ah!" moment doesn't count, if only because after millennia of research wives haven't been modeled yet.
Except that we know the comment has no basis in reality and is just the protagonist firing back. Even if it was based on real experience said experience is flawed because it was derived sighted and uncontrolled.
Wives have yet to be modelled because it is impossible. It is not possible to model something that is entirely random in nature. They will always remain an enigma
DDF
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That's the in room response, long term averaged and was my "#4". I find it better to fix the speaker and bass shelf/room modes (low f) first and then listen before adjusting for that room roll off up top. Problem is, we hear a weighted combination of the on axis and the room response. In the lower frequencies, the on axis and room work together closely to create an impression. As you go higher in frequency, on axis starts to dominate more. So the low frequency shelf will sound quite similar in different rooms and speakers but the higher frequency roll off will sound more different for different speakers and rooms. That's why I recommend
- placement right first
- then toe in
- then on axis cleaned up
- then first reflection and +/- 5deg vertical accounted for
- then Harman bass shelf and any room mode peaks below transition frequency
- then listen before adjusting long term averaged room response above the transition frequency
Some links to speaker measurements and sound reproduction articles, by Toole (basically taken from his book)
https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/sound-reproduction
https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/measure-loudspeaker-performance
https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/room-reflections-human-adaptation
https://www.audioholics.com/room-ac...ons-human-adaptation/what-do-listeners-prefer
https://www.audioholics.com/room-ac...i-sub-sfm/the-birth-of-sound-field-management
Sean Olive's blog contains lots of same and advanced research and links to original studies (some are free at Harman)
http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/01/what-loudspeaker-specifications-are.html
https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/sound-reproduction
https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/measure-loudspeaker-performance
https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/room-reflections-human-adaptation
https://www.audioholics.com/room-ac...ons-human-adaptation/what-do-listeners-prefer
https://www.audioholics.com/room-ac...i-sub-sfm/the-birth-of-sound-field-management
Sean Olive's blog contains lots of same and advanced research and links to original studies (some are free at Harman)
http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/01/what-loudspeaker-specifications-are.html
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solderdude
Grand Contributor
There are explanations for that, but you just won't like them.
Sawdust123
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I'm late to the thread and I haven't read every post. However, I have seen enough to give me the impression that the thread starter is experiencing the Dunning-Kruger effect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect
I should just point out that a speaker can measure flat on-axis while having poor time alignment between drivers, box resonances, port huffing, rub & buzz, high IM distortion and a host of other maladies. There are many ways to measure frequency response. They may differ in speed, resolution, other information provided as well as their suitability for different measurement environments. Each technique has its strengths and weaknesses. For instance, the Farina chirp is very popular for its speed and ability to provide THD information. However, one can easily get fooled by the results if one doesn't appreciate nuances of the measurement's windowing function and gating. Even its rub & buzz is limited on the types of rubs is can find. And, if you run the chirp too fast, it may not find the buzzes either. This is why measurements have so many parameters you can adjust. The more you know, the more you realize that measurements don't tell you how a device sounds. They only provide insight as to why it sounds the way it does.
I should just point out that a speaker can measure flat on-axis while having poor time alignment between drivers, box resonances, port huffing, rub & buzz, high IM distortion and a host of other maladies. There are many ways to measure frequency response. They may differ in speed, resolution, other information provided as well as their suitability for different measurement environments. Each technique has its strengths and weaknesses. For instance, the Farina chirp is very popular for its speed and ability to provide THD information. However, one can easily get fooled by the results if one doesn't appreciate nuances of the measurement's windowing function and gating. Even its rub & buzz is limited on the types of rubs is can find. And, if you run the chirp too fast, it may not find the buzzes either. This is why measurements have so many parameters you can adjust. The more you know, the more you realize that measurements don't tell you how a device sounds. They only provide insight as to why it sounds the way it does.
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