Please share your center channel experiences

[Trdat]

Very educational thread Rick thanks. So far I have always opted for a phantom center and it seems many do as well.

A few experts swear by a centre speaker, Linkwitz is anti center so is are many from this thread so no consensus as yet.

Now that the omnidirectional center is serving you well is dialogue significantly improved? And have you tried it with upmixed music at all?

 

[Duke]

With the above statement (I may have invorrectly, attributed to you, personally)

Ah, now I understand! I didn't realize that was the part you were responding to.

To clarify, in my experience the best spatial quality was with a "phantom" center channel, BUT in the case of someone having a significant hearing imbalance, then a dedicated center channel speaker is usually more practical.

 

[Rick Sykora]

I can live with the (inevitable?) collapse in soundstage depth that accompanies a center channel speaker on movies, but imo that totally ruins the illusion on music videos. And music videos are my priority as far as sound quality.



The second-best center channel solution I have used was a coaxial with matching left and right speakers. They were prototypes that never went into production.

The best center-channel solution I have used is phantom center mode with controlled-pattern main speakers toed-in aggressively. You can see an example of such at this link (it's not my room):

AK Prismas as Phantom Center

AK Prismas as Phantom Center

www.audiocircle.com

I understand the arguments for having a dedicated center channel versus using phantom center mode. They make sense. But to my ears the spatial quality is much better in phantom center mode, even for off-centerline listeners, assuming appropriate speakers and setup.

That being said, for listeners with a significant hearing imbalance (one ear hears better than the other), the time-intensity trading setup that I prefer is usually impractical, and a center-channel speaker is called for.

I have also found that a phantom center can be pleasant, but only for a small, sweet spot.

We have couches along the side walls of our home theater and cannot sit there and have the phantom center work well.

 

[Dj7675]

Revel C208 that I had Amir measure...
Sits below a projecting screen and angled up to listening position (I actually have 3 below the screen)
-Dialogue is amazingly clear
-Intelligibility is great the width of the room
-Center content appears to come from the screen and not a speaker. I am guessing this must be due to the very wide dispersion
-While the on axis measurements frequency response look a bit ragged, they don’t measure like that at the listening position.
-They can play loud when called up with dual 8 inch woofers/3 way design
-Ideally I would to with an acoustically transparent screen with 3 in wall speakers behind the screen, but I can’t complain.

 

[Duke]

I have also found that a phantom center can be pleasant, but only for a small, sweet spot.

We have couches along the side walls of our home theater and cannot sit there and have the phantom center work well.

Yeah, "couches along the side wall" would be a long shot for phantom center mode. Your choice of an omnidirectional center-channel speaker makes total sense, for giving good coverage to people on those couches. What speaker are you using, if you don't mind?

In order to get a wide sweet spot in phantom center mode, ime a particular type of speaker and set-up are called for, but then it works well. I've had multiple customers sell their center channel speakers because they never used them anymore. Quoting from the link in post #27:

"The sweet spot is slightly wider than my sofa. The toe-in design increases volume for the opposing speaker; as I move more to the right I am moving more on-axis to the left speaker and off-axis from the closer, right speaker. Since the waveguide for the compression driver forces the dispersion pattern to conform to the woofer's dispersion pattern, vocal and instruments continue to sound natural as I move to the side of the listening area. Even when I sit past the center axis of the opposite speaker; it always sounds like dialog is centered on the screen."

At audio shows I typically set up one chair with its back against a side wall, and of course everyone avoids that chair, but sometimes all the others are taken and someone sits in that chair to wait for a better one. In between songs I always ask that person how the soundstage was from there, and they are inevitably pleasantly surprised that there was still a good spread to the instruments and that the center vocalist was somewhere between the speakers instead of pulled all the way over to the near speaker. So not quite "couches along the side wall", but not too far off either.

 

[Rick Sykora]

Very educational thread Rick thanks. So far I have always opted for a phantom center and it seems many do as well.

A few experts swear by a centre speaker, Linkwitz is anti center so is are many from this thread so no consensus as yet.

Now that the omnidirectional center is serving you well is dialogue significantly improved? And have you tried it with upmixed music at all?

Dialog is fine for me, but do end up turning up from time to time. My wife has some hearing challenges and has to have dialog level “just right”. Does not like loud sound effects either, so I listen to those alone or with my kids. Happens less now that we are empty nesters. Pretty sure the home theater will get consolidated when we downsize…

Since I have another system for critical listening, only use the home theater for background listening in stereo. The times I have tried surround modes, sounds bit too artificial to me, but not spending any time optimizing it either. With the CBT24s and good-size sealed subwoofer, am pretty happy with stereo.

 

[Rick Sykora]

Yeah, "couches along the side wall" would be a long shot for phantom center mode. Your choice of an omnidirectional center-channel speaker makes total sense, for giving good coverage to people on those couches. What speaker are you using, if you don't mind?

In order to get a wide sweet spot in phantom center mode, ime a particular type of speaker and set-up are called for, but then it works well. I've had multiple customers sell their center channel speakers because they never used them anymore. Quoting from the link in post #27:

"The sweet spot is slightly wider than my sofa. The toe-in design increases volume for the opposing speaker; as I move more to the right I am moving more on-axis to the left speaker and off-axis from the closer, right speaker. Since the waveguide for the compression driver forces the dispersion pattern to conform to the woofer's dispersion pattern, vocal and instruments continue to sound natural as I move to the side of the listening area. Even when I sit past the center axis of the opposite speaker; it always sounds like dialog is centered on the screen."

At audio shows I typically set up one chair with its back against a side wall, and of course everyone avoids that chair, but sometimes all the others are taken and someone sits in that chair to wait for a better one. In between songs I always ask that person how the soundstage was from there, and they are inevitably pleasantly surprised that there was still a good spread to the instruments and that the center vocalist was somewhere between the speakers instead of pulled all the way over to the near speaker. So not quite "couches along the side wall", but not too far off either.

My center is Mirage OMD-5.

Output probably would not work in a much larger setup, but seems fine for our 13 x 25 family room. The CBTs get plenty loud. I enjoy special effects as much as the next guy, but as I approach 60, keeping more of my hearing range is more important than reproducing sound effects.

Our local theater is more than capable of producing THX level sound effects. So usually go out to experience newer movies. They fitted the place with recliners, so actually nicer than my couches too!

 

[Duke]

My center is Mirage OMD-5.

Excellent choice for your application. Frankly I can't think of a better one, given that it goes loud enough for your needs.

as I approach 60, keeping more of my hearing range is more important than reproducing sound effects.

Our local theater is more than capable of producing THX level sound effects. So usually go out to experience newer movies.

I'm on the wrong side of 60, and on those few occasions when I can be talked into going to a theater I bring musician's earplugs, which essentially turn down the volume by about 12 dB but still allow enough highs through for acceptable speech intelligibility.

We have couches along the side walls of our home theater and cannot sit there and have the phantom center work well.

Just curious: How far "off-axis" is your farthest forward couch position relative to the tweeter "axis" on the Mirage OMD-5? More than 60 degrees? (Yeah I know the Mirage is an omni so "on-axis" doesn't really apply, but pretend like it does.)

 

[Rick Sykora]

Just curious: How far "off-axis" is your farthest forward couch position relative to the tweeter "axis" on the Mirage OMD-5? More than 60 degrees? (Yeah I know the Mirage is an omni so "on-axis" doesn't really apply, but pretend like it does.)

You could sit at 70-75 degrees off-axis, but more typically, people lay on the side couches and the angle is 40-45 degrees.

I do not calibrate Audyssey using mic positions that are more than 45 degrees.

 

[TimVG]

My best results have always been with the center speaker mounted above the (television) screen in my first appartment.
Over the past years in the house we bought, have used a Revel F208 in my Revel setup, and a Genelec 1032A (as L/C/R) in the same room. Due to a slanted ceiling they needed to go below the screen, but it simply didn't work very well.

I'm looking into filling the space between the slanted ceiling and the screen, and simply using a good coaxial speaker, or at least something with very predictable directivity, and simply EQ it from the LP. Currently doing without a center, which has its own drawbacks.

 

[pseudoid]

This is the one I really wanted! But the price kept my eagerness at bay!

What is it about the allure of MartinLogan's almost erotic looks?
Although I've developed a phobia of center speakers, your photos made me dig a bit deeper.

ESL C34A page states: ...Or as low as $1499.83 per month over 6 months.

If money was no object and/or I won some jackpot; this setup would be the one I would marry w/o a pre-nup.

 

[sarumbear]

Funny coincidence that I have one KEF Reference 4C delivered by my dealer to test only last night. I was going to test it this weekend. After seeing the its recent test I will order two more instead

 

[abdo123]

Funny coincidence that I have one KEF Reference 4C delivered by my dealer to test only last night. I was going to test it this weekend. After seeing the its recent test I will order two more instead

not interested in in-walls anymore?

 

[sarumbear]

not interested in in-walls anymore?

I was told that Ci5160REF is the same as the Reference 4C. They sure looked identical. I ordered three of the former but I do have one of the latter to test. I will keep it with me and compare it to the in-wall version. My dealer earns too much money from me he can't risk lying and if what he said is not true he cannot risk not taking the speakers back otherwise he won't sell me anything ever again. Naturally, there will be some difference I expect between an i-wall and free standing speaker and I am willing to accept it.

 

[abdo123]

I was told that Ci5160REF is the same as the Reference 4C. They sure looked identical. I ordered three of the former but I do have one of the latter to test. I will keep it with me and compare it to the in-wall version. My dealer earns too much money from me he can't risk lying and if what he said is not true he cannot risk not taking the speakers back otherwise he won't sell me anything ever again. Naturally, there will be some difference I expect between an i-wall and free standing speaker and I am willing to accept it.

Glad to hear, do you think you will audition the Ci5160RL? (White and silver)

High frequency linearity seems to be significantly improved with the following coaxial driver generation (KEF R2C and KEF R3 reviews).

 

[sarumbear]

Glad to hear, do you think you will audition the Ci5160RL? (White and silver)

High frequency linearity seems to be significantly improved with the following coaxial driver generation (KEF R2C and KEF R3 reviews).

Maybe I should. Do you know the free standing equivalent of the Ci5160RL?

However as I said, I do trust my dealer, who tells me that the difference is striking -- as one expects when the REF version is more than FOUR times more expensive!

 

[abdo123]

Maybe I should. Do you know the free standing equivalent of the Ci5160RL?

However as I said, I do trust my dealer, who tells me that the difference is striking -- as one expects when the REF version is more than FOUR times more expensive!

That's a difficult question because the Ci5160RL has a 6.5inch mid-woofer Uni-Q instead of the typical 5 inch midwoofer in the R series and Reference series so i don't think we can do an apples to apples comparison with any free standing equivalent.

it's surprising, but at least the crossover frequency is even lower (300Hz) compared to the reference series (400Hz) so the horizontal directivity in theory should be slightly better. Worth the audition in my opinion.

 

[sarumbear]

Worth the audition in my opinion.

How can you audition an in-wall speaker? They will be in different rooms. Differences will be skewed with the sounds of the rooms.

...so the horizontal directivity in theory should be slightly better.

@amirm's measurement show no problem within 50 degrees each side. That is more than the 80 degrees I need.

 

[abdo123]

How can you audition an in-wall speaker? They will be in different rooms. Differences will be skewed with the sounds of the rooms.

Yeah I guess that's true, did you try contacting KEF for the spinoramas?

 

[sarumbear]

Yeah I guess that's true, did you try contacting KEF for the spinoramas?

I did, no reply yet. My dealer will remind them that I just spent £25K with them.