Please help me choose

[norcriss]

Hello guys. I’m on a tight budget around 3000€-3500$ for an integrated amp. Last days I searched hours on this forum and YouTube and plenty others for different amps reviews. Somehow I started in mind with 1 model amp and ended up with even more models and more dilemmas.

As for speaker i’m very close of purchasing Dynaudio emit 50 or Evoke 50. It’s between these models, which are both on 4ohm and around 85-86db if I remember right. So I’m guessing a muscular amp should be required?
At first I had in mind the Naim uniti atom since I had Naim before and I love their sound but I don’t think that should be a great match with Dynaudio speakers since it only has 40w.

Now I ended up looking at Rega Elicit Mk5, Arcam SA30, Rotel RA1592 MK2, Naim XS3 or Marantz 30n/40 & Lyngdorf TDAI-1120.

Which model would you guys choose? Anyone has any experience with any of these models? It feels like if keep looking more I will get even more models and be even more undecided. A big problem is that I cannot audition any of these amps before buying, so everything will be bought judging on reviews and hopefully with a good return policy

Thanks In advance for taking the time to read such a long text

 

[NTK]

Welcome to ASR. Glad to have you here.

Sorry if I am going to make your decision more difficult. (See edit below) None of the amps on your list has proper bass managed subwoofer output. Only the Arcam includes the room EQ function (Dirac Live, but strangely without bass management). To get the very best bass response in your room, subwoofers are usually required. It is because the best locations for the main speaker for imaging are often not the same as the best locations for bass due to room modes . (To learn more about room mode, see here and here.) If you only sit in one spot in your room when listening, you may be able to do without subs and with only room EQ. Also, by offloading the sub-bass duty from your main speakers, they can play cleaner and louder.

The stereo integrated amps that I recall off the top of my head which have room EQ and bass managed subwoofer outputs are the MiniDSP SHD Power, NAD M10 (and M33 for >2X more $$$), and Anthem STR. Or you can go with AVR (home theatre receivers) which (almost?) without exception include these functionalities, but they in general have poorer measured performance and output capabilities.

[Edit]
I was incorrect in that the Lyngdorf TDAI-1120 does have proper bass management and room EQ.

 

[norcriss]

Welcome to ASR. Glad to have you here.

Sorry if I am going to make your decision more difficult. None of the amps on your list has proper bass managed subwoofer output. Only the Arcam includes the room EQ function (Dirac Live, but strangely without bass management). To get the very best bass response in your room, subwoofers are usually required. It is because the best locations for the main speaker for imaging are often not the same as the best locations for bass due to room modes . (To learn more about room mode, see here and here.) If you only sit in one spot in your room when listening, you may be able to do without subs and with only room EQ. Also, by offloading the sub-bass duty from your main speakers, they can play cleaner and louder.

The stereo integrated amps that I recall off the top of my head which have room EQ and bass managed subwoofer outputs are the MiniDSP SHD Power, NAD M10 (and M33 for >2X more $$$), and Anthem STR. Or you can go with AVR (home theatre receivers) which (almost?) without exception include these functionalities, but they in general have poorer measured performance and output capabilities.

Thanks for your reply, adding a subwoofer later wouldn’t be a problem. I guess all of those amps supports that? I’m not so interested in AVR, I want a stereo integrated amplifier like I had always.
I checked the NAD m33 and Anthem but here in Europe they are way above my budget. For instance NAD is around 6500$ which is double my budget.

 

[NTK]

The proper way to add subwoofer(s) is usually called bass management. It includes (by using high pass filters) removing the low-bass contents to relieve the main speakers from having to reproduce them, sending the low-bass contents only to the subwoofers, and EQ the room response using in-room measurements.

None of the amplifiers on your list has the functionality to remove the low-bass contents to the main speakers. Only the Arcam has the ability for room EQ, but without bass management. If you choose an integrated amplifier without bass management, it is very difficult to add the function later without basically using the integrated amp as a dumb power amp (i.e. making the source selection, volume control, streaming functions, etc. useless).

It seems to me the NAD M10 is the most comparable amp to the ones in your list. It has decent power output capability and performance (based on the Hypex NC252MP module). You can find a detailed review of the previous generation (V1) at AudioXpress and Amir's review is here.

 

[norcriss]

The proper way to add subwoofer(s) is usually called bass management. It includes (by using high pass filters) removing the low-bass contents to relieve the main speakers from having to reproduce them, sending the low-bass contents only to the subwoofers, and EQ the room response using in-room measurements.

None of the amplifiers on your list has the functionality to remove the low-bass contents to the main speakers. Only the Arcam has the ability for room EQ, but without bass management. If you choose an integrated amplifier without bass management, it is very difficult to add the function later without basically using the integrated amp as a dumb power amp (i.e. making the source selection, volume control, streaming functions, etc. useless).

It seems to me the NAD M10 is the most comparable amp to the ones in your list. It has decent power output capability and performance (based on the Hypex NC252MP module). You can find a detailed review of the previous generation (V1) at AudioXpress and Amir's review is here.

There aren’t many amps that do support bass management. I listened to NaD m10 and I don’t know..it didn’t impressed me at all. I had before C388 and sold it within a year.

Im not sure bass management is a must for me, I had before subwoofers connected in a more “traditional” way, meaning both speakers and the sub were doing the job and to be honest I didn’t noticed something bad about it.

 

[NTK]

Outside the multi-channel/home theatre crowd, probably 95+% of the stereo audio enthusiasts don't use bass management or room EQ, and most of them have no complaints and are happy. We can arrive at audio nirvana through multiple different ways. Whichever you choose, I wish it will give you tremendous enjoyment and satisfaction.

 

[ZolaIII]

Stick with what's mesured regarding both.
See what you think about Yamaha R-N803 and if it's still available from where you are.
Regarding speakers stick to the (Harman) preference score review index hire and check what's available on discounts now.

Master Audio Review Index

www.audiosciencereview.com

(Europe) Master Deals Thread on Audio Product Sales

Check fnac. They have much better shipping cost for bulky goods I mean, I have found a German retailer that seems to deliver polk r700 to Czechia free of charge and they sell them for 1800 eur per pair. Still comes cheaper than the offer from France.

www.audiosciencereview.com

With that Yamaha (around 800€) you would probably had enough money for Revel F208 tower's if there is a dealer for those near you (not exactly great availability in EU).

Revel F208 Tower Speaker Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Revel F208 speaker. It was kindly purchased by a member and drop shipped to me for measurements. Revel F208 costs $2,500 each or US $5,000 for a pair. Note: our company, Madrona Digital is a dealer for Revel speakers. Feel free to read as...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Best regards.

 

[Hephaestus]

Welcome to ASR. Glad to have you here.

Sorry if I am going to make your decision more difficult. None of the amps on your list has proper bass managed subwoofer output. Only the Arcam includes the room EQ function (Dirac Live, but strangely without bass management). To get the very best bass response in your room, subwoofers are usually required. It is because the best locations for the main speaker for imaging are often not the same as the best locations for bass due to room modes . (To learn more about room mode, see here and here.) If you only sit in one spot in your room when listening, you may be able to do without subs and with only room EQ. Also, by offloading the sub-bass duty from your main speakers, they can play cleaner and louder.

The stereo integrated amps that I recall off the top of my head which have room EQ and bass managed subwoofer outputs are the MiniDSP SHD Power, NAD M10 (and M33 for >2X more $$$), and Anthem STR. Or you can go with AVR (home theatre receivers) which (almost?) without exception include these functionalities, but they in general have poorer measured performance and output capabilities.

Lyngdorf TDAI-1120 certainly has proper bass management.
It allows 2.2 configuration and has:
-option for mono or stereo subs
-different crossover options:
LR: (Linkwitz Riley) 2nd, 4th or 8th order.
BW: (Butterworth) 1st, 2nd or 4th order.
-wide crossover frequency selection

RoomPerfect integrates the subs very well. The amp may not measure well in ASR standards (See Amir´s review on TDAI-3400) but the bass management and RoomPerfect are really good.

 

[Robert C]

The proper way to add subwoofer(s) is usually called bass management. It includes (by using high pass filters) removing the low-bass contents to relieve the main speakers from having to reproduce them, sending the low-bass contents only to the subwoofers, and EQ the room response using in-room measurements.

I think the aforementioned Yamaha R-N803 can do this. Well reviewed here. I own one and the YPAO room correction/loudness EQ is a real game changer. Phantom centre is precise, the bass feels anchored, no wandering upper frequencies. Apparently SINAD takes a hit when YPAO is engaged, but the increase in sound quality is well worth it.

The 803 is discontinued (still available through Amazon), but it's been superseded by the new R-N2000A (link).

These advice threads can be frustrating when the OP asks for one thing and the replies recommend something different but I think this is justified. The 803 cost me ~£700 and it's the best sounding amp I've ever had thanks to its DSP functions. If I were spending £3,000 I'd definitely want DSP room correction!

 

[Puddingbuks]

Don’t buy passive speakers with an amp, buy active speakers. For that kind of money (evoke 50 @5000 euro + 3500 euro amp) you can get some great active stuff, like Genelec 8351 and getting close to even better ones, like Genelec 8361, Dutch & Dutch 8c, etc. The top of what is currently possible in the market!

Much better result. The dynaudio speakers will be no match for these.

Furthermore, spending 3500 euro on an amp with speakers for 1000 euro's a piece (emit 50), is a bad choice. The amp will make little, if any, difference. Amps in active speakers (one per speaker unit, so 2-3 amps per speaker) are designed/chosen specifically for the speaker unit and do not encounter a problematic filter. Much easier load for the amp.

 

[norcriss]

Don’t buy passive speakers with an amp, buy active speakers. For that kind of money (evoke 50 @5000 euro + 3500 euro amp) you can get some great active stuff, like Genelec 8351 and getting close to even better ones, like Genelec 8361, Dutch & Dutch 8c, etc. The top of what is currently possible in the market!

Much better result. The dynaudio speakers will be no match for these.

Furthermore, spending 3500 euro on an amp with speakers for 1000 euro's a piece (emit 50), is a bad choice. The amp will make little, if any, difference. Amps in active speakers (one per speaker unit, so 2-3 amps per speaker) are designed/chosen specifically for the speaker unit and do not encounter a problematic filter. Much easier load for the amp.

Problem is that I’m not so much into active speakers since I do believe that they are not so reliable for long term use. If I spend 7-8k now, I want to be sure they will last for years.

 

[norcriss]

Lyngdorf TDAI-1120 certainly has proper bass management.
It allows 2.2 configuration and has:
-option for mono or stereo subs
-different crossover options:
LR: (Linkwitz Riley) 2nd, 4th or 8th order.
BW: (Butterworth) 1st, 2nd or 4th order.
-wide crossover frequency selection

RoomPerfect integrates the subs very well. The amp may not measure well in ASR standards (See Amir´s review on TDAI-3400) but the bass management and RoomPerfect are really good.

Problem with Lyngdorf is that it’s only 60w into 8ohm. Dynaudios as I stated in the beginning are not so easy to drive, otherwise I would have definitely choosed Naim Uniti Atom since I listened to that and it sounds awesome but only 40w is kinda low..

 

[Waxx]

For that kind of money you can do much better than an integrated amp.

Get a seperate preamp (Shiit Freya S- 600€)) a dsp (MiniDSP Flex - 650€) and a top level neutral amp (Audiophonics HPA-S400ET - 1500€) and you got a system that is better than anything mentioned here and still some spare left of your budget. With the dsp you can add the (active) subwoofer like they said above and tune the system to be neutral. The preamp and the amp are top rated in measurements down here, just like the dsp is. And concerning size, this is about 2U space (2 19" rackunits) so smaller than most integrated amps. The disadvantage is more cabling but once set up it's as easy to use as an integrated i think. And if you only got digital sources, skip the preamp, the dsp can be a digital preamp also.

 

[NTK]

Lyngdorf TDAI-1120 certainly has proper bass management.
It allows 2.2 configuration and has:
-option for mono or stereo subs
-different crossover options:
LR: (Linkwitz Riley) 2nd, 4th or 8th order.
BW: (Butterworth) 1st, 2nd or 4th order.
-wide crossover frequency selection

RoomPerfect integrates the subs very well. The amp may not measure well in ASR standards (See Amir´s review on TDAI-3400) but the bass management and RoomPerfect are really good.

I stand corrected. Post #2 updated.

 

[Puddingbuks]

Problem is that I’m not so much into active speakers since I do believe that they are not so reliable for long term use. If I spend 7-8k now, I want to be sure they will last for years.

Genelec speakers (and other pro speakers) are made to perform 24/7. They can be serviced in many years to come if needed. No worries!

 

[Marc v E]

Problem is that I’m not so much into active speakers since I do believe that they are not so reliable for long term use. If I spend 7-8k now, I want to be sure they will last for years.

My experience is quite contrary to your expectation. I've used a pair of active B&O Beolab 9's since 2010, daily. They've been flawless.

I bought a 2nd hand pair of genelec 8030A's. Flawless again for years.

If you want the best for your money, the most agile, tightest sound with clean bass, there is nothing that can better an active speaker (ime and imo)

Edit: I concur with was said above that you get more from investing more in speakers and less in amplification, should you want to go for passives

 

[Timcognito]

Nice amp with streaming, Roon ready and Dirac DSP. Author directly compares it to Lyngdorf Audio TDAI‑1120 subjectively. Bench test are attached to article. Save some cash. FYI

SoundStage! Hi-Fi | SoundStageHiFi.com - miniDSP SHD Power Integrated Amplifier-DAC

www.soundstagehifi.com

 

[LTig]

Genelec speakers (and other pro speakers) are made to perform 24/7. They can be serviced in many years to come if needed. No worries!

I second that. My pair of Klein & Hummel O300D are still working in their 18th year. A simple switch at the backside was all that needed to be fixed.
The Genelec sub 7060b works flawless in its 16th year, as do the Genelec 8020a on my desktop.