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Placing speakers on top of subwoofers

andreasmaaan

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Meanwhile, the Integra processor has a bi-amp mode, so I connected my REL sub to one of amp/speaker outputs (set to full range) used for biamping, set the crossover to around 50 Hz and switched the Rythmiks to mid-bass (50 Hz - 250 Hz). With this, I am finally getting the dynamics I was hoping for!
Well that's great :)

Can you post a waterfall with the correct vertical scaling for us to have a look at?
 

andreasmaaan

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Nice :)

To my eyes, that doesn't look too bad.

The bass is already reasonably smooth IMHO. That's not just with the Rhythmik subs set to operate 50 - 250Hz, is it? I.e. are you also using the REL for sub-50Hz for this measurement?

The brightness you're hearing is possibly a result of the peak at around 3-4 KHz. It's hard to tell what's causing that but my guess is it's the speakers themselves. Do the speakers normally sound bright to you?
 

stunta

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Nice :)

To my eyes, that doesn't look too bad.

The bass is already reasonably smooth IMHO. That's not just with the Rhythmik subs set to operate 50 - 250Hz, is it? I.e. are you also using the REL for sub-50Hz for this measurement?

The brightness you're hearing is possibly a result of the peak at around 3-4 KHz. It's hard to tell what's causing that but my guess is it's the speakers themselves. Do the speakers normally sound bright to you?
Thank you

The measurements were taken without the REL. No I've never found these speakers too bright. I am fairly certain it is due to the wooden panels especially behind the listening position. This is why I am eager to get the panels and measure again.
 

andreasmaaan

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Thank you

The measurements were taken without the REL. No I've never found these speakers too bright. I am fairly certain it is due to the wooden panels especially behind the listening position. This is why I am eager to get the panels and measure again.
Are the Rhythmik subs set to produce only 50Hz - 250Hz?

It seems there's a lot of energy below 50Hz on that graph.
 

stunta

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Are the Rhythmik subs set to produce only 50Hz - 250Hz?

It seems there's a lot of energy below 50Hz on that graph.
There are two different configs I have tried:
1. Rythmiks set to 200 Hz and below. No REL.
2. Rythmiks set to 50-250 Hz with REL crossing in at 50 Hz.

For the measurements, I was using #1 above. I haven't taken any measurements with #2 yet. I'll wait for the panels and measure before & after.

Is there a way to apply the filters in REW and take measurements again? This would serve as a good A/B test and make sure the plots i am generating are valid (as in A should show the problems and B should show the correction).
 

andreasmaaan

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There are two different configs I have tried:
1. Rythmiks set to 200 Hz and below. No REL.
2. Rythmiks set to 50-250 Hz with REL crossing in at 50 Hz.

For the measurements, I was using #1 above. I haven't taken any measurements with #2 yet. I'll wait for the panels and measure before & after.

Is there a way to apply the filters in REW and take measurements again? This would serve as a good A/B test and make sure the plots i am generating are valid (as in A should show the problems and B should show the correction).
Ok, that explains it! Not sure the REL will improve things looking at those graphs, as multiple bass sources is likely to give a more even in-room response than a single source. But can't hurt to try it and listen and measure.

I'm not sure what you mean by "apply the filters in REW"?

One quick suggestion: have you tried bumping up the subs by a few dB? Does it still sound bright after you do that? It seems that the in-room response generally follows the right trend, but that there's either a bit of a dip in the upper midrange, or a couple of peaks in the lower midrange and mid-treble. The former would tend to sound relaxed/exciting, while the latter would tend to sound a bit bright/hard (which is more in line with how you describe the sound). Bumping up the bass a bit might tend to lead you to interpret the balance more as the former rather than the latter.
 
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stunta

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I'm not sure what you mean by "apply the filters in REW"?
This is the usual high level workflow:
1. Take measurements
2. Have REW generate filters
3. Plug in the filters wherever you can (Roon in my case)
4. Play music and enjoy

What I would like is a step 2.1: Plug the filters in REW, re-measure and visually validate the result from the graphs.
 

andreasmaaan

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This is the usual high level workflow:
1. Take measurements
2. Have REW generate filters
3. Plug in the filters wherever you can (Roon in my case)
4. Play music and enjoy

What I would like is a step 2.1: Plug the filters in REW, re-measure and visually validate the result from the graphs.
I'm not familiar enough with REW - sorry! Do you mean it is generating filters for the subwoofer crossover? Or EQ filters for the total system frequency response?

Also, I just edited my previous post with some extra ideas FYI :)
 

stunta

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I'm not familiar enough with REW - sorry! Do you mean it is generating filters for the subwoofer crossover? Or EQ filters for the total system frequency response?
Nevermind, its off-topic anyway.

One quick suggestion: have you tried bumping up the subs by a few dB? Does it still sound bright after you do that?
Will try it. I've been listening at high volumes which is strange given how bright I find the sound to be and now that you mention this, I am thinking that is probably me trying to get more bass out my system.
 

RayDunzl

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What I would like is a step 2.1: Plug the filters in REW, re-measure and visually validate the result from the graphs.
Not what you want, but here's what you can try to get the filtered result into REW:

Make a file of the measurement sweep.

Generator -> Meas. Sweep -> Click WAV -> Measurement Sweep Options -> File Save dialog

Play that through the player you are using, where you've applied the filters.

Use audacity (or other software) to record a WAV of the output with the microphone.

REW -> File -_> Import -> Import Sweep Recordings -> import the file you created by playback of the sweep through the player with the filters

See what you get.
 

stunta

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Update on this. I wanted something easier than REW and also wanted outboard configurable crossovers for flexibility given my setup is a bit complicated. I ended up getting the miniDsp DDRC-88A/BM. Its a Dirac Live enabled unit and the bass management module is quite handy as well. Dirac likes 9 measurements so I got a cheap mic stand (the one Amir linked to in another thread) to make it easier. For now, I let Dirac do its thing, used its default target curve, correct the entire spectrum (thats what it does by default). I will tinker with Dirac later; for now I just want a decent baseline. The more important and interesting part was bass management, routing, mixing and crossover settings. miniDsp is very flexible with these things (I read through a lot of literature before buying this unit).

I'll try to draw a diagram, take some screenshots and post it here, but in short, I have the ATC standmounts crossed over at 200 Hz. The Rythmik FM8s take over between 50 and 200 Hz. 50 and below is handled by the 10" REL sub. I am short by one XLR cable running through the wall, so I split the signal with a Y cable between the two Rythmiks. Full range signals (FR and FL main channels) from the pre-pro mixed into one channel & filtered at the miniDsp - this is a killer feature of this device, for me at least - and later split by the Y-cable to the Rythmiks. This is not ideal since I may be losing some channel separation depending on content (its all around 200 Hz and below), but will have to do while I try to get another cable run.

I've always wanted large floor standing speakers and I've managed that with a pair of standmounts and the Rythmiks as the stands. Now the system sounds "big" and it sounds right to my ears. I have the dynamics I've always been looking for which were never achieved with just the ATCs and the REL. This setup also makes it easier for me to replace the main speakers (The Rythmiks are here to stay. They are too good) in the future.

Next thing I want to do is use REW to get the FR with/out Dirac enabled so I can validate what Dirac is doing.

This has been a very good learning experience. The ATCs are spec-ed at 54Hz +/- 6db. When I bought them many years ago, I was dumb enough to think that I can add a sub, cross in at around 50 Hz and be done with it. Even now with the two Rythmiks, I figured I could set them to go low and not need the REL, but subjectively it was obvious that even the dual 8" drivers are best left to handle mid-bass and leave the bottom end to the 10" REL.

Also, when looking at Dirac-enabled A/V pre-pros, I found that they don't have the same flexibility (not even close) as the miniDsp unit. For the typical HT configuration, they are probably fine, but when things get slightly complicated, they are limiting. So I am glad I went with a relatively cheaper pre-pro and got the miniDsp to complement it. If there is any loss in fidelity with the additional round of AD-> DA conversion, I don't hear it.

Many thanks to this forum for the guidance and feedback, especially @andreasmaaan.
 

Olli

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These (Isoacoustics ISO 200 - up to 33 kgs) are nice if you‘re after some isolation and maybe want to adjust height and angle:

171CE058-DBEC-46CB-A447-1A615BD81EB1.png
 
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