Pitt & Giblin speakers (Spinorama available)

[Grimoire]

thHey HowlingHouse,

If you had these in your living room as your primary music-listening speakers, would you class them as end-game for you?
I need to make a fast decision, unheard, before EOM so appreciate any professional listeners’ opinions. Controlled/restricted directivity is a bonus rather than hindrance in my room. Thanks.

The morning sun shines differently in the evening.

 

[Keith_W]

Hi Alexei I can tell you there is absolutely nothing wrong with them. They sound as the measurements suggest - neutral, smooth, easy to listen to. If you can afford it, and if you don't mind the styling, you won't be disappointed.

 

[MarkS]

Hey HowlingHouse,

HowlingHouse has not logged in here since last November ...

 

[Alexei]

The morning sun shines differently in the evening.

Hi Alexei I can tell you there is absolutely nothing wrong with them. They sound as the measurements suggest - neutral, smooth, easy to listen to. If you can afford it, and if you don't mind the styling, you won't be disappointed.

Hi Keith_W, I don’t really know if I can afford them. I might need to eat baked beans and herrings from now on if I do this.
They do seem like a manifestation (albeit an active version) of what I had been dreaming of since the 90s.
Like others, I’m not wrapped about ‘looking at the plumbing’ as some have said, but it’s only me at home and my whole setup is a bit like that. I’m a function over form kind of guy.
Thanks for pushing me over the edge, and thanks MarkS for the update on HowlingHouse.
I hope P&G answer the phone tomorrow!

 

[Flaesh]

to eat baked beans and herrings

Hmm... I have a can of herring, but I haven't eaten canned beans for a long time, I'll have to buy some. I like to eat both sometimes; I have never tried them together.
If a P&G is not in the budget, there are many ways to get or build regular home DSP speakers based on a 15" woofer and compression driver with decent waveguide.

Are used JBL 4722 still available?

A kit to assemble a pair like this costs about\from a thousand bucks.

It seems unnecessary to say that the horns can be spray painted gold. And it is possible to 3D print more modern and advanced waveguides.

Does anyone know what drivers are used in P&G?

 

[williamr]

I might need to eat baked beans and herrings

I'm not sure how they taste, but you will find plenty of red herring in some of these forum threads.

 

[Adi777]

Looks really nice, like modern vintage, but what about diffraction effects with angular enclosures? They say that’s the worst possible shape for a speaker cabinet.
On one hand, their Tenet looks impressive, but also a bit too... hmm, too simple— I write about enclosure. It looks a bit like a mid-range DIY project, though I could be wrong.

 

[Alexei]

Hmm... I have a can of herring, but I haven't eaten canned beans for a long time, I'll have to buy some. I like to eat both sometimes; I have never tried them together.
If a P&G is not in the budget, there are many ways to get or build regular home DSP speakers based on a 15" woofer and compression driver with decent waveguide.
View attachment 555361
Are used JBL 4722 still available?

View attachment 555363
A kit to assemble a pair like this costs about\from a thousand bucks.

It seems unnecessary to say that the horns can be spray painted gold. And it is possible to 3D print more modern and advanced waveguides.

Does anyone know what drivers are used in P&G?

That lower pic looks attractive. Unfortunately Australia has become a backwater when it comes to used larger format speakers. They are extremely rare in appearance, command near-new prices and the decent-reputation stuff is snapped up faster than you can read the advert.
The good old days of bargains are over here, not helped by The Supreme Leader of the world ensuring that everyone except him and his Tech Bro buddies are forced to now pay more for everything. We’re ‘a wealthy country on paper’ where people are struggling to be able to rent or worse, buy a decent home. Everyone is clinging desperately to things of value that they may never be able to afford again!

I’m not in a situation to build anything in an apartment, and aren’t tooled up for it anyway, but appreciate the thoughts.

 

[Alexei]

Looks really nice, like modern vintage, but what about diffraction effects with angular enclosures? They say that’s the worst possible shape for a speaker cabinet.
On one hand, their Tenet looks impressive, but also a bit too... hmm, too simple— I write about enclosure. It looks a bit like a mid-range DIY project, though I could be wrong.

You might be right about the cabinets. I think I read that at least one of the boys was previously heavily involved in Pro audio so may have been inspired by the dynamic abilities (and practical to build shapes) of PA speakers. P&G’s take seems to be ‘let’s try this but attempt a decently flat response, select a waveguide profile for hifi rather than sheer SPL, and leverage DSP to get phase coherency and the crossover region under control.
I’m guessing in an open/large venue environment cabinet diffraction effects at distance are less of an issue.
No owners on forums I’ve read have said anything detrimental about the SWMs. Surely they can’t all be hiding buyer’s remorse and are embarrassed to admit it?
I’ve only seen one expired used-for-sale advert stating that it was a reluctant sale but the bass overwhelmed his listening environment.
I’m looking forward to judging for myself whether a leap of faith has been worth it.

 

[Flaesh]

I’m not in a situation to build anything in an apartment

I'm not encouraging anyone to saw in their apartment; you can order two boxes from a workshop. One can simply place the horn on top, and can easily try another one if want.

That lower pic looks attractive.

https://surgesound.com.au/eighteen-sound/ I'm surprised by the rather high prices and poor selection in Australia, here is the basic set of spare parts for "lower pic clone", xt14654 is exactly the same:

I've been using these myself for the last few years:

 

[Keith_W]

Looks really nice, like modern vintage, but what about diffraction effects with angular enclosures? They say that’s the worst possible shape for a speaker cabinet.
On one hand, their Tenet looks impressive, but also a bit too... hmm, too simple— I write about enclosure. It looks a bit like a mid-range DIY project, though I could be wrong.

A valid concern. Check out its CEA2034 measurements on spinorama.org.

It's easiest to see those effects on the contour plot, but unfortunately that's not available. You look for "fingers" or "lobes". So we have to learn to spot diffraction in the summary window instead, which is much more difficult. Diffraction is almost always a mid-treble phenomenon, between 1kHz - 10kHz (wavelengths 34.3cm - 3.43cm). Longer than that and it doesn't interact too much with the cabinet. Shorter than that and the diffraction effects are evanescent and mostly disappear at the listening position. So we only focus in this region.

It helps if we have a "bad" speaker to use as an example, so we will look at Amir's review of the Fluid Audio C35BT:

Here we can easily see the diffraction between 3kHz - 8kHz.

EDIT I am a numbskull, I showed the vertical directivity instead of horizontal. Never mind, it still shows you what to look for.

It's much harder to spot on the CEA2034 summary window. First we focus on the red square - that's a resonance. Why? Because there is a sharp peak, and it persists across the LOW, ER, SP, SPDI, and ERDI. Now we look for the diffraction in the green box. It's there, but difficult to see. What you are looking for is a ripple in the LW and ER that is worse compared to the on-axis. But since the on-axis is by itself rippling up and down, we normalize it and now it is easier to see:

Note how that ripple disappears in the ERDI. In contrast, the resonances at 1.2kHz and about 15kHz do not disappear.

So go back and look at the CEA2034 of those P&G's. Yes you will see some diffraction, but it's absolutely tiny. It won't matter. About the only criticism is the slightly negative DI below 50Hz and the notch in the SPDI at about 900Hz (probably at the XO point), but these are far from the worst I have seen. The other thing to see is that the ERDI is about 10dB, meaning these are speakers are more directional than most. It's not "good" or "bad", it's whether it works for you or not. You will likely need to toe them in. That CEA 2034 is near perfect.

These measurements are incomplete. There is no step response, no distortion measurements, no vertical directivity, and no compression testing - so I can't comment on those. And of course, these measurements were supplied by the manufacturer and not by an independent third party. I would very much like to see Erin review these speakers.

Nobody is going to complain that these are bad measuring speakers. With the proviso that we don't have all the measurements, and the info is manufacturer supplied. This is a world class speaker which deserves a worldwide market. If they wanted that, they could get Erin to review them and they would have that market. It's not up to me to comment on their business practices, but my impression is that they are a small operation that hand builds every speaker. In every business, massive demand isn't always something you want.

 

[EJ3]

Funny. What should the owner do if he is not satisfied with the correction result?

Rinse & Repeat

 

[Adi777]

So go back and look at the CEA2034 of those P&G's. Yes you will see some diffraction, but it's absolutely tiny. It won't matter.

The measurements look very good—or even excellent—at least to someone with my limited knowledge how to look on measurements.
PS I am very curious about the measurements from another Australian company - Lenard Audio. They also use horns for most of their speakers.

I am also aware that more complex, "beveled," less straightforward, and non-angular enclosures are significantly more expensive to manufacture

 

[Keith_W]

PS I am very curious about the measurements from another Australian company - Lenard Audio. They also use horns for most of their speakers.

God damn it, I misread your reply and thought you said "Lenehan". So I wrote this lengthy post before I thought - "wait a minute ...". Anyway everything I wrote is irrelevant now, but you might be curious to read about another Aussie speaker so i'll leave it up.

---

I managed to dig out some measurements I had on my Whatsapp chat group. This is an in-room measurement of the Lenehan ML2's prior to application of DSP:

And this is after DSP:

I did not take these measurements, nor was I around when they were taken - so I can't vouch for them. You can see that the vertical scale is about 85dB which has a graph flattening effect, so adjust your eyes accordingly. It's not so bad.

But that's not my issue with Lenehan. They sell "Toppers" which they claim are a "Tuned Mass Damper". A real TMD is a huge pendulum suspended from the top of skyscrapers to counteract swaying effects caused by the wind. Here is Lenehan's "TMD" sitting on top of an ML2:

Not to mention the audiophile grade speaker cables and power cables they make and sell.

I can smell the stench of snake oil from here. If your speaker needs a TMD, then either you are (1) incompetent or (2) trying to fleece your customers. Neither is good.

Australia has decent speaker manufacturers. P&G, March, and SGR should all be considered. Lenehan is not the worst (we certainly have our share of comically bad speakers), but I would avoid them for the sole reason that they embrace snake oil.

 

[Flaesh]

audiophile grade speaker cables and power cables

and audiophile grade copper screws?..)) For both silvery and black drivers.

 

[DVinylfan]

Beautiful speakers. Order today and save $935 AUD

 

[Adi777]

God damn it, I misread your reply and thought you said "Lenehan". So I wrote this lengthy post before I thought - "wait a minute ...". Anyway everything I wrote is irrelevant now, but you might be curious to read about another Aussie speaker so i'll leave it up.

Heh, I heard first time about Lenehan speakers.
Lenard Audio is, probably, very famous in Australia. They exist from few decades and they have, like Pitt&Giblin, somewhat studio-based pedigree. Opal Canberra looks WOW, but also their smaller speakers are very interesting, like Master and Symphony.

 

[Adi777]

I have to retract what I said about the appearance of the Pitt & Giblin speakers, though—they don't look like mid-range speakers. I don't know why I wrote that, but I would still like to see more rounded edges; they could look even better, although I understand that this reflects the company's design and construction philosophy.

 

[Elgrosso]

I would not worry too much about the edge diffraction, there are other constrains that might have more impact, just a little sacrifice for their awesome look an build quality.
I’m saying this based on my cheap diy version that I built 2 yers ago, not a 100% copy of course but similar layout/concept, except their original one looks much better.
I think we ended up using very similar XOs points, and maybe even slopes, I recognize a lot of similarities with their on and off axis.
But this is speculation based on my in-room measurements, I don’t have polars I didn’t know how to perform clean outside measurement at the time.

It was still awesome for many reasons but I could not exploit all of it due to... their sizes.
Or more the footprint, impossible in my case to position in the exact right optimum for SBIR, 1m wide box remember.
So if your room is big enough, and that you can place them in the right spot, that must be a fine pleasure for the ears and the eyes to have the real ones!

 

[Adi777]

So if your room is big enough, and that you can place them in the right spot, that must be a fine pleasure for the ears and the eyes to have the real ones!

Really big room, around 7x3x8 m, and check Pitt & Giblin Tenet