Pioneer VSX-LX505 Power Remeasurement

[peng]

If there's something I can just do with the 70 to see if it will trigger the power limiting with 4Ω speakers, just tell me how and I'll do it. I have LRS+ Magnepans which should do the trick. Or I could wire a few 8Ω speakers in parallel too right? Then what, just blast dynamic music until some warning light comes on?

I don't see reasons for forcing it into limiting, in the typical bench tests, protection was not triggered:

Onkyo TX-RZ70 11.2CH AV Receiver Review

The Onkyo TX-RZ70 11.2CH AV receiver boasts 140 watts/ch, 8K HDMI inputs, Auro 3D, FREE Dirac Live and the BEST bench test results we’ve seen in its price class. Is this the best AVR at under $3k?

www.audioholics.com

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[EWL5]

Thanks for pointing that out, yes I had missed his comments.... they sound not dissimilar to my own.

These AVR's do not like difficult/reactive loads.

It's too bad you don't have your DRX 3.4 anymore. You simply could have put it in 4 ohm mode and see if the sound quality changed in any way. If it didn't, then this forced "limp mode" = 4 ohm mode whether you like it or not!

Not sure why we didn't come to this conclusion sooner. It sounds kinda obvious when you think about it and fairly easy to test for those having sound quality issues! It also makes sense that unplugging and replugging would reset the mode since "limp mode" was only activated via interlocks whereas the actual 4 ohm switch position would force permanent 4 ohm mode.

 

[EWL5]

I have the rz70. Still haven't plugged it in. It's supposed to be my bedroom AVR because I want to approximate the 7.4.4 in my living room I have with my X4800H (bought thanks to Amir's review ). I was just learning how this site worked or I'd have just asked Amir if I could send the 70 directly. But I know he's got a lot on his plate in the best of times. Plus I wanted to make sure he paired it with my GR Research power cord I recently had upgraded with No Rez around both plug ends.

Anybody else in the Seattle area have the tools to test it if Amir is still quite busy? Or come help me set it up cuz I never used Dirac since physics class in the 90s. Even my Denon isn't fully set up but I do have all the speakers and subs in their appropriate places (I think). I almost bought the Denon again for the bedroom but that would just have been so boring and I thought I'd take the chance on the 70 given the review of the 50. Also the goal in the bedroom is to go AVR only for power and the Denon "only" powers 9 channels.

If there's something I can just do with the 70 to see if it will trigger the power limiting with 4Ω speakers, just tell me how and I'll do it. I have LRS+ Magnepans which should do the trick. Or I could wire a few 8Ω speakers in parallel too right? Then what, just blast dynamic music until some warning light comes on?

Not having the RZ70 tested isn't the end of the world. Gene over at Audioholics already gave it a thorough review and didn't find any limiting exhibited by its weaker 2021 brethren. I think it's commonly acknowledged the RZ70/DRX 8.4/805 were the ones to get from PAC if you wanted it to run any speakers.

 

[Rottmannash]

You have a strange definition of “protection mode”. In the States, it’s exactly as Amir described: AVR powers off to prevent damage to the amp!

I didn't realize the AVR literally powered off during the test. I thought the power production dropped quickly but the AVR remained "on".

 

[Power Pop 23]

I have the rz70. Still haven't plugged it in. It's supposed to be my bedroom AVR because I want to approximate the 7.4.4 in my living room I have with my X4800H (bought thanks to Amir's review ). I was just learning how this site worked or I'd have just asked Amir if I could send the 70 directly. But I know he's got a lot on his plate in the best of times. Plus I wanted to make sure he paired it with my GR Research power cord I recently had upgraded with No Rez around both plug ends.

Anybody else in the Seattle area have the tools to test it if Amir is still quite busy? Or come help me set it up cuz I never used Dirac since physics class in the 90s. Even my Denon isn't fully set up but I do have all the speakers and subs in their appropriate places (I think). I almost bought the Denon again for the bedroom but that would just have been so boring and I thought I'd take the chance on the 70 given the review of the 50. Also the goal in the bedroom is to go AVR only for power and the Denon "only" powers 9 channels.

If there's something I can just do with the 70 to see if it will trigger the power limiting with 4Ω speakers, just tell me how and I'll do it. I have LRS+ Magnepans which should do the trick. Or I could wire a few 8Ω speakers in parallel too right? Then what, just blast dynamic music until some warning light comes on?

Not having the RZ70 tested isn't the end of the world. Gene over at Audioholics already gave it a thorough review and didn't find any limiting exhibited by its weaker 2021 brethren. I think it's commonly acknowledged the RZ70/DRX 8.4/805 were the ones to get from PAC if you wanted it to run any speakers.

Agreed with EWL5 and Peng,


It was not cheap for 2-way insured ground shipping to get my 28-pound Pioneer '505' AVR measured and your Onyko TX-RZ70 AVR was more expensive and weighs 20 pounds more.

I devoted time to updating the Master Review Index and as a 'thank you', Amir agreed to a scheduling that permitted a prompt turnaround time in re-measuring another Pioneer '505' AVR.

I consider the knowledge gained worth the price and it is now 1 of only 2 Pioneer '505' AVR/AVP's measured by Amir !

Your Onkyo TX-RZ70 AVR could be unique if Amir agrees to measure it.

 

[EWL5]

I didn't realize the AVR literally powered off during the test. I thought the power production dropped quickly but the AVR remained "on".

I think you misunderstood. A true protection mode in an AVR would turn off the AVR as a minimum and not allow the AVR to continue (this never happened in Amir's tests). @dlaloum is calling the "limp mode" a "protection mode" and this is just wrong by most definitions of "protection mode".

What Amir went through in the benchmark is more like a forced 4 ohm mode that never recovers unless the machine is unplugged and replugged (I think "limp mode" is easier to understand as the AVR allows you to continue at much reduced output).

 

[EWL5]

@Rottmannash, below is what I was referring to Amir saying recently and I wasn't quoting something from his original review.
Hope this clears up the confusion.

Of course you have. Protection shuts the unit down with clear indication, and power going to zero in my measurements. This power limiting is the same thing many AVRs do when you set them to 4 ohm. They quietly power limit to pass UL temperature rise limit. They can't put an indicator there as then UL will fail them in the test.

In the case of other AVRs, they simply tell you they don't support 4 ohm even though they clearly can, and vast majority of speakers are 4 ohm. What Pioneer is doing here is using a heuristic to automatically go into that mode and stay there. Kind of like dieselgate that VW and others went through to pass emissions. They should simply do what others have done instead of screwing around here. This also explains why it doesn't reset itself on power restart. Only an unplug and replug resets it.

 

[dlaloum]

It's too bad you don't have your DRX 3.4 anymore. You simply could have put it in 4 ohm mode and see if the sound quality changed in any way. If it didn't, then this forced "limp mode" = 4 ohm mode whether you like it or not!

Not sure why we didn't come to this conclusion sooner. It sounds kinda obvious when you think about it and fairly easy to test for those having sound quality issues! It also makes sense that unplugging and replugging would reset the mode since "limp mode" was only activated via interlocks whereas the actual 4 ohm switch position would force permanent 4 ohm mode.

I did try out 4ohm mode for the hell of it at the time - it made no noticeable difference... it just did not like my Gallo speakers.

 

[EWL5]

I did try out 4ohm mode for the hell of it at the time - it made no noticeable difference... it just did not like my Gallo speakers.

There it is. If the limp mode wasn’t already a semi-permanent 4ohm mode, you would have heard a drop in quality!

 

[dlaloum]

There it is. If the limp mode wasn’t already a semi-permanent 4ohm mode, you would have heard a drop in quality!

Except it sounded that way immediately after powering up... with no continuous load to trigger the "limp mode" - and no report of "protection" in the status screen....

Not convincing.

That's why I asked whether AmirM checked the status screen when doing the "limp mode" test...

I have no reason to believe my unit ever entered "limp mode"

 

[Rottmannash]

I think you misunderstood. A true protection mode in an AVR would turn off the AVR as a minimum and not allow the AVR to continue (this never happened in Amir's tests). @dlaloum is calling the "limp mode" a "protection mode" and this is just wrong by most definitions of "protection mode".

What Amir went through in the benchmark is more like a forced 4 ohm mode that never recovers unless the machine is unplugged and replugged (I think "limp mode" is easier to understand as the AVR allows you to continue at much reduced outp

I was referring to your statement that the amp "turned off to prevent damage to the amp". I assumed @amirm meant the amp limited but remained powered on but I may be incorrect.

 

[amirm]

I was referring to your statement that the amp "turned off to prevent damage to the amp". I assumed @amirm meant the amp limited but remained powered on but I may be incorrect.

You are correct but I think you misread his post.

 

[buckaboo49]

I have this receiver. When using certain inputs like Apple TV 4K 2nd gen i get a noticeable pop from the speakers when I power on the receiver along with the Apple TV. I've tried powering on the Apple TV first, second, etc and no change. I'm running Emotiva external amps. I don't recall this happening when I owned my Denon AVR-X3300W, using the same external amps and speakers. The loudness of the pop coming from the speakers varies in intensity. Any idea how to stop it? The speakers are Emotiva T1, C1, and B1's.

 

[Bleib]

Ugly, horrible, could the unfortunate owners file for damages? AVRs are a scourge for Music.

Nah. I've loved all my Denon AVRs, with the exception of one with a hdmi bug

 

[EWL5]

I have this receiver. When using certain inputs like Apple TV 4K 2nd gen i get a noticeable pop from the speakers when I power on the receiver along with the Apple TV. I've tried powering on the Apple TV first, second, etc and no change. I'm running Emotiva external amps. I don't recall this happening when I owned my Denon AVR-X3300W, using the same external amps and speakers. The loudness of the pop coming from the speakers varies in intensity. Any idea how to stop it? The speakers are Emotiva T1, C1, and B1's.

Without unplugging or resetting the AVR, what happens when you set the speaker impedance to "4 ohms" in the AVR instead of the default "6 ohms or above"? Let us know if you still get the pop.

Feel free to unplug and replug the AVR after the above test is finished and see if you hear a difference.

 

[EWL5]

Except it sounded that way immediately after powering up... with no continuous load to trigger the "limp mode" - and no report of "protection" in the status screen....

Not convincing.

That's why I asked whether AmirM checked the status screen when doing the "limp mode" test...

I have no reason to believe my unit ever entered "limp mode"

Right, because you will be in this "soft 4 ohm mode" until you unplug the AVR and plug it back in. This AVR's behavior was automatic with no intervention from you and is not considered a traditional "protection" mode (and why it will never show up in the status screen).

There's some sort of cognitive bias going on where this mode has to be "protect" for you and I'm not sure why. Perhaps you believe it's not possible that an AVR manufacturer would ever do such a thing (I can think of many business reason why they would!).

 

[popej]

When using certain inputs like Apple TV 4K 2nd gen i get a noticeable pop from the speakers when I power on the receiver along with the Apple TV.

I wouldn't call it noticable, but there is a soft click when AVR switches from stereo to multichannel. Maybe you get it at start, look at display to monitor switching.
My solution is to set Dolby Surround upmixing for all inputs. I even started to like it

 

[peng]

Except it sounded that way immediately after powering up... with no continuous load to trigger the "limp mode" - and no report of "protection" in the status screen....

Not convincing.

That's why I asked whether AmirM checked the status screen when doing the "limp mode" test...

I have no reason to believe my unit ever entered "limp mode"

I assume you no longer have that unit, but I wonder when you said immediately after powering up, did you mean powering up after the unit had been unplugged and plugged, then powering up using the on button?

The thread is long, so we may want to be reminded what Amir stated, as below:

As before, mere power cycling using the front button does not restore power. However, if you unplug the AC cord, wait a few seconds, and then repower, you get all the available power (in green).

 

[dlaloum]

Right, because you will be in this "soft 4 ohm mode" until you unplug the AVR and plug it back in. This AVR's behavior was automatic with no intervention from you and is not considered a traditional "protection" mode (and why it will never show up in the status screen).

We don't know this to be the case - no one has actually checked when it was confirmed to be in "limp mode" - whether the status screen "protection" flag is set or not. (and for obvious reasons this can only be done in a lab where the instrumentation is available to test and confirm)

Both you, and I are making assumptions.... and we may well be wrong.

 

[dlaloum]

I assume you no longer have that unit, but I wonder when you said immediately after powering up, did you mean powering up after the unit had been unplugged and plugged, then powering up using the on button?

The thread it long, so we may want to be reminded what Amir stated, as below:

I was talking about when first plugged into the mains and first set up.... so yes - total unplugged.