Pioneer VSX-LX505 Power Remeasurement

[EWL5]

It is not he bug, it is a protection for amps and speakers. It makes testing more difficult. Sure, if you want an amp easy for testing, buy something else

Correct. Bugs can typically be fixed by firmware updates. What these 2021 PAC AVRs need are more robust heat management in the form of beefier heatsinks, etc.

If I'm not mistaken, I think you get larger heatsinks on the HDMI connections for the RZ30 compared to the older 2021 models. This was one of the attractions of the newer RZ30.

 

[EWL5]

Let's consider this amplifier behavior as an undocumented (by Onkyo) feature for prospective buyers who desire the most durable AVR.

That is certainly one way of looking at it! LOL!

 

[peng]

Correct. Bugs can typically be fixed by firmware updates. What these 2021 PAC AVRs need are more robust heat management in the form of beefier heatsinks, etc.

If I'm not mistaken, I think you get larger heatsinks on the HDMI connections for the RZ30 compared to the older 2021 models. This was one of the attractions of the newer RZ30.

It can't be a real heat issue but as you correctly framed it, it is a "management" (heat management that is..) issue haha. I think it is fixable via FW but if there is not enough users complaining, they would have no reason to do it. It is like if a 10 A slo blow fuse can be used for adequate protection, but instead a regular 10 A fuse is used, so it might blow prematurely unnecessarily, that's an oversimplified example/analogy.

 

[EWL5]

It can't be a real heat issue but as you correctly framed it, it is a "management" (heat management that is..) issue haha. I think it is fixable via FW but if there is not enough users complaining, they would have no reason to do it. It is like if a 10 A slo blow fuse can be used for adequate protection, but instead a regular 10 A fuse is used, so it might blow prematurely unnecessarily, that's an oversimplified example/analogy.

I don't remember if it was here or over at AVS but I remember the limiting temperature was something like 60°C. This is when it most likely goes into "limp mode" and still operate but at much reduced power output under low impedance.

This is also another reason why pulling the plug and plugging the AVR back in works to get the higher output back as it removes the temperature "permissive".

Some examplex:

Onkyo TX-RZ50 Review (Home Theater AVR)

OK so neither seem to work. When you dial the volume to -22 or higher, it kicks in, but after a few minutes it drops the rail back again, and doesn't do anything until stop the program, perhaps he sees something over bluetooth and assumes with music, 30 watts or so is enough for cooling and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

https://www.avsforum.com/posts/63711377/

 

[peng]

I don't remember if it was here or over at AVS but I remember the limiting temperature was something like 60°C. This is when it most likely goes into "limp mode" and still operate but at much reduced power output under low impedance.

This is also another reason why pulling the plug and plugging the AVR back in works to get the higher output back as it removes the temperature "permissive".

Some examplex:

Onkyo TX-RZ50 Review (Home Theater AVR)

OK so neither seem to work. When you dial the volume to -22 or higher, it kicks in, but after a few minutes it drops the rail back again, and doesn't do anything until stop the program, perhaps he sees something over bluetooth and assumes with music, 30 watts or so is enough for cooling and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

https://www.avsforum.com/posts/63711377/

The fact that it hot activated in one sweep indicated it is not a thermal thing, but a high current or clipping activated event.

 

[amirm]

It is not he bug, it is a protection for amps and speakers. It makes testing more difficult. Sure, if you want an amp easy for testing, buy something else

Then why doesn't indicate it has entered this mode when protection really kicks in? Why pretend the amp is still fully functional?

 

[amirm]

I don't remember if it was here or over at AVS but I remember the limiting temperature was something like 60°C.

This mode in my original testing was strictly triggered by time.

 

[Chr1]

This seems crazy to me. I really wish home audio gear wasn't like this. It's kinda similar to the way manufacturers avoid putting clipping indicators on their amplifiers.
I reckon they'd rather you didn't know their product was struggling.

 

[amirm]

Then why doesn't indicate it has entered this mode when protection really kicks in? Why pretend the amp is still fully functional?

Answering my own question, it is to pass regulatory certification. Limit power and get through the test. This would also explain why it is time based as they know exactly the period and activity of the test. Indicating any "protection" in the front panel would be a fail in testing.

This is my hypothesis unless company steps up and provides an explanation.

 

[popej]

Then why doesn't indicate it has entered this mode when protection really kicks in? Why pretend the amp is still fully functional?

Yes, missing indication is a bug.

 

[popej]

Limit power and get through the test.

I doubt it could pass power test without power

 

[8Packin]

Anyone know if the Pioneer SC-27 (circa 2010) suffers from the same problem? I've searched but found little info (too dated?). It seems to work fine driving my M&K 5.1 system but trying to improve my "technical" knowledge here at ASR. Big thanks to Amirm for all his work!

 

[EWL5]

Anyone know if the Pioneer SC-27 (circa 2010) suffers from the same problem? I've searched but found little info (too dated?). It seems to work fine driving my M&K 5.1 system but trying to improve my "technical" knowledge here at ASR. Big thanks to Amirm for all his work!

As Onkyo only acquired Pioneer in 2015, it is unlikely your SC-27 would be affected. I have an SC-25 from back in the day and would have kept running it if it were not for changing standards! In comparison, my SC-LX701 (bought in 2018) had an HDMI fail after ~5 years (it may have been sooner as I only replaced it after 5)!

Apart from the different DACs, it looks like the "clone wars" were ramping up to start:

Pioneer SC-LX701 vs Onkyo TX-RZ920: Comprehensive Comparison

Compare the Pioneer SC-LX701 and Onkyo TX-RZ920. Discover the differences in features, specs, performance, and find out which A/V receiver is the best for you.

www.zkelectronics.com

 

[Chanur]

I give kudos to the original owner (Pioneer Electronics) for offering the AVR market the option of Class-D amplification and hiring Andrew Jones to design entry-level loudspeakers.

The Andrew Jones Pioneers were my first real home theater speakers . Loved them.

 

[beagleman]

The measurements provided by @Synthethesiscinema are clearly showing that the Onkyo/Pioneer/Integra are able to provide enough power to drive the speakers.
The problem is what speaker type will trigger the nannies in real life.
The load of a speaker is a complex impedance and only a real test can show what happens.
The load of my tower speakers are two 8" woofer Dayton SD215A88 with a minimum impedance of 3.20 Ohms around 150 Hz according to the datasheet.
As I have connected them in serial mode the minimum load impedance seen from the RZ30 is 6.40 Ohms.
The RZ30 is driving them properly at moderate sound level (apartment in a condominium).
It was not the case for the Yamaha RX-A700.

Here is the important question, as ASR is an audio forum:
Could a user of Onkyo/Pioneer/Integra explain how he succeeded to trigger the limp mode when listening music?

Not sure I am getting a good explanation from you about this.

"Driving them" to moderate sound level, but the RX-A700 could not???

There is no reason one could and the other could not, Need you to elaborate WHY especially when its only a 6.40 ohms and ANY receiver could do that easily.

I am not a Yamaha fanboy, but just feel there must me something ELSE wrong, as the A700 is decent and the small power difference would barely be meaningful.

 

[valerianf]

I am a Yamaha fan boy as I kept the RX-A700 12 years and I have other Yamaha products.
The midrange and treble frequencies were satisfying but the low frequencies were apatic.
My tower speakers have always been dull with the Yamaha.
If someone read the reviews of this generation of Yamaha AVR complains have been made against a downsized power supply.

The RZ30 is the opposite, with a lot of clarity and dynamic on the transients.
It may fail Amir's timer test but in a day to day life it is able do drive properly my full range tower speakers.
It would be interesting to get the RZ30 tested by Amir, as it is the latest Onkyo Avr.
I may buy a RZ31 when available for my vacation house.

 

[beagleman]

I am a Yamaha fan boy as I kept the RX-A700 12 years and I have other Yamaha products.
The midrange and treble frequencies were satisfying but the low frequencies were apatic.
My tower speakers have always been dull with the Yamaha.
If someone read the reviews of this generation of Yamaha AVR complains have been made against a downsized power supply.

The RZ30 is the opposite, with a lot of clarity and dynamic on the transients.
It may fail Amir's timer test but in a day to day life it is able do drive properly my full range tower speakers.
It would be interesting to get the RZ30 tested by Amir, as it is the latest Onkyo Avr.
I may buy a RZ31 when available for my vacation house.

all of mine (Yamaha) are mid generations, of the newish series from 2010 till now.

I have an TSR-7850 and a RX-A2070? if memory serves.
I also have the lowly RX-V373 entry level receiver on one TV set up.


All of mine are in the 2015-2018 range

I will look more into this.

 

[JSmith]

"Elite" my ass

"ELITE"

JSmith

 

[Power Pop 23]

Thanks for the update Amir, and all your tests and work here.

Perhaps silly question: A factory reset, will it by any chance override firmware updates and set the unit back to original firmware?

I would be very surprised if that happens. Usually these things only maintain one version of the software anyway.

Just ask AI, , and it confirms the same:

"A factory reset erases all saved settings, including speaker configurations and network, but maintains the current, updated firmware."

I guess you will be able to find out soon!

I received back the Pioneer '505' AVR just measured.

There has been no change to the firmware as a result of the factory reset.

 

[JSmith]

I received back the Pioneer '505' AVR just measured.

Cheers for sending it in.


JSmith