Pioneer VSX-LX505 Power Remeasurement

[beagleman]

I just want to give my personal experience: I replaced a Yamaha RX-A700 with a Onkyo RZ30.
The AVR only drives the LCR speakers.
There is no subwoofer but two large tower speakers with two 8" woofer each.
Verdict: the Onkyo is a revelation, with a strong low frequencies drive that the Yamaha was unable to provide.

Then something is wrong with settings or something.

IF anything they should "Sound" nearly identical. If one is a "REVELATION", you have something set wrong or one is not working right.

Sorry, but your comment just comes off like the typical subjective stuff. Most stuff made in recent years, will not sound more than a bit different, so you need to find what is causing this. It would not just be normal performance.

 

[jdbob]

I think you fully disabled high power mode that way! I too heard a faint relay click when power limiting kicked in. And setting to 4 ohm, on any of these AVRs, guarantees power limiting as otherwise, they will fail the UL heat rise test. In other words, what you experienced is not a good thing.

That's certainly one of the main reasons why I decided that it needed to be replaced. Unfortunately I bought the 305 before I knew about this website.

 

[amirm]

What frequency are you using for power sweep? Is it 1kHz?

Yes.

 

[Power Pop 23]

The subwoofer outputs on the Pioneer VSX-LX505 are not independent and this AVR does not support DLBC or Dirac ART.

These were not limitations for my usage case.

As I already owned external amplification, this AVR offered the option of being a relatively inexpensive AVP with a paid Dirac Live license.


tho' if I had waited another month, I could have paid as little as $569 via a Slickdeals affiliate link at Adorama in NYC.

 

[valerianf]

@beagleman, nothing subjectif in my remark but just a basic electronic side effect.
The anemic power supply of the Yamaha RX-A700 was unable to drive properly the LCR speakers.
When Amir was able to measure the RZ50 providing up to 2x200W the RZ30 is able to provide may be 2x125W.
There is a German audio review that measured it.
As long as the internal protection is not triggered it is good to go.
Until now it never triggered in my home.
Could a user explain in what context the protection was triggered in real life?

 

[Karmacoma]

"ELITE"

 

[SynthesisCinema]

Seems like Pioneer's AVRs have got worse, rather than better over the years. I use a SC-LX86 Elite, which is more than 10 years old now and love it.
It puts out plenty of power into nine channels, has USB input, and runs barely warm to the touch even when pushed hard. Have recently bought another as a backup second hand, as I don't need more channels or Atmos.
WTF happened Pioneer?!

Not all of them are doing this power limiting. The engineers have tuned the nannies too aggressively which we have seen in past for example with Yamaha Aventage models. In case of Yamaha i have not seen anyone complaining in real life even when pushed close to reference volume. No protection kicking in or sound hardening which usually happens with lower cost AV-receivers which runs out of power. The earlier model VSX-LX504 does not power limit in AudioVision bench test nor the RZ50. The power output figures are almost identical to Denon X4800H.

VSX-LX505, RZ50 and the X4800H are all fitted with 2x 15,000μF main block capacitors and the power transformers size / VA spec should be very close as they measure so similar.

Pioneer`s flagship LX805 shows bigger jump in power. The sister model to RZ70 and Integra. Power numbers are similar to Denon A10H.

 

[SynthesisCinema]

The world is eager to know whether Onkyo RZ30 still has this issue.

Audio Vision test shows the RZ30 being within 10w of X3800H.

RZ30 has 2x 10,000μF main filter caps while Denon uses slightly bigger 2x 12,000μF 71V.

 

[beagleman]

@beagleman, nothing subjectif in my remark but just a basic electronic side effect.
The anemic power supply of the Yamaha RX-A700 was unable to drive properly the LCR speakers.
When Amir was able to measure the RZ50 providing up to 2x200W the RZ30 is able to provide may be 2x125W.
There is a German audio review that measured it.
As long as the internal protection is not triggered it is good to go.
Until now it never triggered in my home.
Could a user explain in what context the protection was triggered in real life?

So you say the Onkyo was a "Revelation" based on, it had 200 watts, and the Yamaha was 125??

I am not even certain how to reply to this. Normal usage you would not even be close to those limits in either receiver.
I mean most of the time, MOST users are in the under 10 watts range.

How is "Driving" a speaker related to just maximum power output??
They would still have the same basic frequency response, and just confused HOW and WHY you assume two receivers would be DRASTICALLY different bass wise?

 

[EWL5]

@beagleman, nothing subjectif in my remark but just a basic electronic side effect.
The anemic power supply of the Yamaha RX-A700 was unable to drive properly the LCR speakers.
When Amir was able to measure the RZ50 providing up to 2x200W the RZ30 is able to provide may be 2x125W.
There is a German audio review that measured it.
As long as the internal protection is not triggered it is good to go.
Until now it never triggered in my home.
Could a user explain in what context the protection was triggered in real life?

What speakers are you running?

 

[popej]

Could a user explain in what context the protection was triggered in real life?

Most probably it won't trigger, test signals stress AVR much more than music.

 

[EWL5]

Something tells me the Onkyo next gen availability in 2027 is a reflection of a "back to the drawing board" mentality with possible major redesign. They most certainly will want to address Amir's discovery of the 2021 PAC model performances in some way!

 

[popej]

They have to pass FTC rules. Maybe they already pass, but it is not what Amir tests.

 

[EWL5]

They have to pass FTC rules. Maybe they already pass, but it is not what Amir tests.

FTC rules currently don't govern 4 ohms or lower so that is the "loophole" being exploited...

 

[peng]

FTC rules currently don't govern 4 ohms or lower so that is the "loophole" being exploited...

And, also what @popej said, it is not Amir tests (per FTC) anyway.
To pass FTC is easier than to pass Amir's sweep that would have kept going up until it reached 1% THD+N.

Pioneer specs:

So if they wanted to just pass FTC, they would stop at below 0.1% THD and it it reached the rated 120 W, it's good.

In Amir's test, it reached 140 W, at or near that point, it might have triggered the protection (limp) mode.

 

[EWL5]

And, also what @popej said, it is not Amir tests (per FTC) anyway.
To pass FTC is easier than to pass Amir's sweep that would have kept going up until it reached 1% THD+N.

Pioneer specs:

View attachment 510011

So if they wanted to just pass FTC, they would stop at below 0.1% THD and it it reached the rated 120 W, it's good.

In Amir's test, it reached 140 W, at or near that point, it might have triggered the protection (limp) mode.

Amir's tests and methodology only have value by the folks who read his reviews and agree with the findings. There are some members (starts with "M" and ends in "X" comes to mind) who will never be satisfied by the result and call the tests "unfair". Such an individual should start their own website and use their own barrage of tests to stress out AVRs/amps (or at least stop complaining on ASR)!

 

[popej]

Amir gives us some insight on how the thing works, but everyone can add subjective opinion. It makes me feel like real audiophile

 

[EWL5]

Amir gives us some insight on how the thing works, but everyone can add subjective opinion. It makes me feel like real audiophile

Agreed. The power benchmarks keep the product in the conversation and its up to subjective listening afterwards to make the final call for a purchase.

Amir made it easy for me to tighten the short list when I was considering the likes of the RZ50, 7100, 505, 305, DRX 5.4, DRX 3.4, 3800, and 4800.

 

[SuicideSquid]

Ugly, horrible, could the unfortunate owners file for damages? AVRs are a scourge for Music.

Unlikely, and no. If you can tell the difference between music played through my Denon AVR-X4700h and SOTA set of separate preamp and power amplifier, I'll eat my hat. Plenty of audibly-transparent AVRs that provide tonnes of useful features for home theatre out there. This just isn't one of them.

 

[AndreaT]

Unlikely, and no. If you can tell the difference between music played through my Denon AVR-X4700h and SOTA set of separate preamp and power amplifier, I'll eat my hat. Plenty of audibly-transparent AVRs that provide tonnes of useful features for home theatre out there. This just isn't one of them.

I believe it is audible when complex orchestral music is played, I do not like fan noise, and it makes me feel better, when I spend the few precious free time to listen to music, to know that for the same price I can have a SOTA class D amplifier that doesn’t make 1/5th of the listed watts…