Pioneer VSX-LX505 AVR Review

[Martin]

I’ve been thinking more about the nanny issue. While it certainly does not meet FTC spec, would it ever show up under real world usage?

What volume would you need to be pushing an average speaker system in a normal room to trigger the nanny timer?

Say you’re running a 7.2.2 system in a large room with 85dB inefficient speakers 10’ distant. You’d need to be running at constant volume of >98dB to trigger it. (http://www.hometheaterengineering.com/splcalculator.html) Is this realistic?

So, the LX505 does not meet FTC spec but does it really matter? Other than this one issue this AVR seems to be one of the better ones measured. I changed my vote from not terrible to fine. Just my 2¢.

Martin

 

[isolar8001]

I've put my VSX-LX305 through some torture tests....including full range heavy bass/no subs with just 2 speakers, and then all 5. Tests that caused the Denon it replaced to get as hot as a George Foreman Grill, and even shut down.

No nanny circuit ever kicked on for me.

 

[Dmitri]

Frustration!

I’ve been thinking more about the nanny issue. While it certainly does not meet FTC spec would it ever show up under real world usage?

What volume would you need to be pushing an average speaker system in a normal room to trigger the nanny timer?

Say you’re running a 7.2.2 system in a large room with speakers 10’ distant. You’d need to be running at constant volume of >98dB to trigger it. (http://www.hometheaterengineering.com/splcalculator.html) Is this realistic?

So the LX505 does not meet FTC spec but does it really matter?

Martin

Yeah…I think it does from an ethical point of view, though from a practical one, maybe not. According to your previous post, the bar is set for 5 minutes...35 seconds is not even close. I get it…this kind of stuff happens all the time in consumer products, but companies need be held to some level of comparative standard and objective accountability. Truth…following ASR, I don’t get all the graphs all the time, or even some of…OK, I admit…a fair amount of the commentary, but ultimately in the end, if a product does what it says it does then at least I can respect the integrity of my potential purchase, and ultimately the subjective experience I have with it‘s performance.

Still…after having said all that, I might very well purchase this or the Integra clone as my next receiver…but only as a prepro. For that purpose, it appears to be a good choice, especially given Dirac as a no cost added feature.

 

[Deleted member 19122]

Hang on, hang on, are we saying this power limited 35s timer is going to be activated/triggered during normal use, be it music listening or movies......I'm assuming it would be, but I wanted to check, I couldn't quite understand the specific instances where this would come into effect?

EDIT: I've read all the comments in the thread now. Ok, so it might not be a problem in normal use depending on what size your listening space is and what your efficiency of your speakers is......but either way we seem to agree that it doesn't meet the advertised specs - in which case it's a general miss for the product, unless you know your use case won't be specifically affected and you think the AVR is a good value deal for you usage. (I wasn't as severe in my voting on this product as most of you folks! DIRAC & ok SINAD & not extortionate pricing.)

EDIT #2: after doing a spot of AVR research & comparison here on ASR then this certainly isn't the best value option, but I won't give it the lowest rating, I'm close to giving it the lowest rating, but to me it doesn't quite deserve that.

EDIT #3: well if these AVR's are inexpensive in EU compared to other brands then that does sway in it's favour in some instances:

I'm guessing this nanny circuity is a holdover from the Onkyo days,Onkyo spent a tidy fortune fixing overheated avr HDMI boards back in the 2010 era.They were even honoring repairing units out of warranty for years after they acknowledged the problem.Kudos to them for doing do but it must have been expensive.

 

[Robbo99999]

I'm guessing this nanny circuity is a holdover from the Onkyo days,Onkyo spent a tidy fortune fixing overheated avr HDMI boards back in the 2010 era.They were even honoring repairing units out of warranty for years after they acknowledged the problem.Kudos to them for doing do but it must have been expensive.

Well, we don't like to see these limitations. We want them to honour their specs without caveats. Whether this AVR is not gonna limit itself in most installation or not is another matter. If it doesn't limit itself in most installations then that's a little better, but we don't want to see grey areas.

 

[ivo.f.doma]

Amir, I want to ask about the discrepancy. Above the graph where the unit crashes at 20W it says 4ohm both channels, but inside the graph it says 8ohm both channels. What is the truth? Because with the Onkyo txrz50, which is a clone of this AVR, there was a problem only at 4 ohm, but no problem at 8 ohm. And what is the continuous power at 8 ohm? With Onkyo, I think it was about 135W/ch.

 

[ArturoKiwi]

I'm guessing this nanny circuity is a holdover from the Onkyo days,Onkyo spent a tidy fortune fixing overheated avr HDMI boards back in the 2010 era.They were even honoring repairing units out of warranty for years after they acknowledged the problem.Kudos to them for doing do but it must have been expensive.

It is true. Onkyo Italy repair for free my tx-nr808 far after the end of the warranty

 

[ArturoKiwi]

Well, we don't like to see these limitations. We want them to honour their specs without caveats. Whether this AVR is not gonna limit itself in most installation or not is another matter. If it doesn't limit itself in most installations then that's a little better, but we don't want to see grey areas.

I think that every brand has they grey areas.
Some Anthem mrx x40 owners have to put an external fan to cool their avr, otherwise rhe internal fan is always on and you could ear it.
Denon avr are frequently very hot, and the heat reduce the life of the components.
D+M changes internal dac without saying or writing a single word, "in real life people doesn't notice it"

 

[Robbo99999]

I think that every brand has they grey areas.
Some Anthem mrx x40 owners have to put an external fan to cool their avr, otherwise rhe internal fan is always on and you could ear it.
Denon avr are frequently very hot, and the heat reduce the life of the components.
D+M changes internal dac without saying or writing a single word, "in real life people doesn't notice it"

Fair enough, but it's good to have reviews that expose the weaknesses. AVR's are on the tail trailing end of modern technical competence in terms of the whole output/SINAD thing.....they've got a ways to go to catch up with the headphone amp & speaker amp & seperate DAC options. They should do what they can to improve here. The benefit they offer is the multichannel integration and DIRAC/Audessey roomEQ implementations all in one box combined with all the "movie processing" tech.....but they need to catch up on the fundamentals.

 

[ArturoKiwi]

Fair enough, but it's good to have reviews that expose the weaknesses. AVR's are on the tail trailing end of modern technical competence in terms of the whole output/SINAD thing.....they've got a ways to go to catch up with the headphone amp & speaker amp & seperate DAC options. They should do what they can to improve here. The benefit they offer is the multichannel integration and DIRAC/Audessey roomEQ implementations all in one box combined with all the "movie processing" tech.....but they need to catch up on the fundamentals.

Absolutely!
We must have honest and impartial review. So we could choose our gear with the eye wide open.
But I think that we have to consider real life use.

 

[LugsyTL47]

I had a Pioneer Vsx-924 from 2014(?).One day, it shut down in security mode, i had to bring it back to Pioneer maintenance. I never knew why, i never exceeded 80 db with my 5.1 setup.
Now, i Know

On an inefficient 86db/wm speaker 44W continuous would be circa 102db @ 1m - so around 100db continuous at the MLP

"reference" level is 85db continuous with peaks reaching an additional 20db to 105db.... this AVR would easily provide reference level continuously, with plentiful reserves well beyond the required peak levels (as peak levels are never going to be maintained continously for 30+ seconds).

It is a design decision... one many of us consider flawed - but not one that should be focused on so heavily - as in real life, it just is not an issue.

I had the LX 305 and now Onkyo NR7100 and use with Dali speakers 6ohm 84.5db and plays much louder than previous NAD 316BEEv2 and no issues as per this and other Pioneer/Onkyo reviews. Add in Dirac, for AVR $800 CAN, no regrets.

 

[dlaloum]

Amir, I want to ask about the discrepancy. Above the graph where the unit crashes at 20W it says 4ohm both channels, but inside the graph it says 8ohm both channels. What is the truth? Because with the Onkyo txrz50, which is a clone of this AVR, there was a problem only at 4 ohm, but no problem at 8 ohm. And what is the continuous power at 8 ohm? With Onkyo, I think it was about 135W/ch.

They are the exact same circuit boards, shared between the RZ50, LX505 and DRX5.4

 

[isolar8001]

They are the exact same circuit boards, shared between the RZ50, LX505 and DRX5.4

Yeah...something is rotten in the State of Denmark with this review. Or, maybe we have all been had !

 

[JDS]

This is a hard one... seems like a very good option for use as a processor. But it is a home theater receiver, with amps. Similar the Onkyo, to have it go into a low power mode that requires a reboot (without any sort of warning or status) is just not appropriate behavior. As soon as (or if) Pioneer/Onkyo/Integra release one that has DLBC and/or the new ART (Dirac Active Room Treatment) it would make an excellent processor.

This is a great point. This AVR seems at least mostly competent as a pre-processor. And quality external amplification isn't difficult or expensive these days. If Pioneer sold the front end of this thing for maybe a grand (give or take), I'd likely pony up.

 

[Martin]

Two more thoughts on the nanny timer; actually one thought and one question.

The thought: The review stated the device tested was refurbished. Could this be a problem with a defective unit?

The question: How would the timer limiting the system to 20 watts manifest itself under normal usage? I.e., while watching a movie or listening to music. How could you tell it had occurred?

Martin

 

[ozmick]

I believe that they do meet their stated power figures!

The quoted specs are:
230 W/ch 6 ohms, 1 kHz, THD 10 %, 1ch Driven
120 W/ch 8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, THD 0.08 %, 2ch Driven FTC

No quoted 4ohm specs... the 1 ch driven 6 ohm spec doesn't specify a method that has a time component

I have the baby version (Integra DRX3.4) which is only 100W rated into 8ohm - but knowing it is current constrained and not suited to low impedance speakers (which my mains are) - I run it with external amps

I believe that they do meet their stated power figures!

The quoted specs are:
230 W/ch 6 ohms, 1 kHz, THD 10 %, 1ch Driven
120 W/ch 8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, THD 0.08 %, 2ch Driven FTC

No quoted 4ohm specs... the 1 ch driven 6 ohm spec doesn't specify a method that has a time component

I have the baby version (Integra DRX3.4) which is only 100W rated into 8ohm - but knowing it is current constrained and not suited to low impedance speakers (which my mains are) - I run it with external amps.

They are the exact same circuit boards, shared between the RZ50, LX505 and DRX5.4

Do you know if the Integra 3.4 has the the same issue

 

[amirm]

Amir, I want to ask about the discrepancy. Above the graph where the unit crashes at 20W it says 4ohm both channels, but inside the graph it says 8ohm both channels. What is the truth? Because with the Onkyo txrz50, which is a clone of this AVR, there was a problem only at 4 ohm, but no problem at 8 ohm. And what is the continuous power at 8 ohm? With Onkyo, I think it was about 135W/ch.

The text was wrong. Should have said 8 ohm (just edited it). The graphs are correct. I found the problem with 4 ohm load first and hence the reason I wrote the text that way. But then dragged in the 8 ohm graph into the review by accident. I ran with it not realizing I had prefaced it with 4 ohm.

For sure this unit has the problem with both 4 or 8 ohm. It my have also been the case with Onkyo and I didn't know then to make it happen as I do now.

 

[dlaloum]

Do you know if the Integra 3.4 has the the same issue

Almost certainly... it is the same design in a slightly less powerful version.

However I have not encountered the issue.

My speakers are a torture load for many amplifiers as the impedance drops to 1.6 ohm - although they are nominally 4 ohm

The Integra DRX 3.4 never went into protection - but then it also never sounded great - the midrange always sounded congested, muddled, and the soundstage/imaging collapsed. - Used external power amps completely resolved the issue.

This family of AVR's don't do well with high current demands on low impedance loads - even if they don't triger the self protection nanny circuit.

Another item of note: - when driving my speakers directly, the fan never went past its "low" setting, and the AVR didn't even warm up - a great sign for long term longevity.

I have run my speakers (front L/C/R) using either Crown XLS2500 or Quad 606 - and they have sounded great either way... but not when run by the 3.4.

Things sounded perfectly fine when I ran L/R front externally and the center from the AVR ... all of them have the 1.6ohm impedance drop - so presumably once I removed the load of the L/R, there was enough current in the power supply to properly feed one channel - seems to me to indicate it is not a constraint of the power amp circuits, but a constraint of the power supply.

In any case the 3.4 has made an excellent pre-processor, and it also runs my surrounds using internal power amps - results are very good!

P.S. Amir did test an earlier version of this chassis, in the Pioneer LX303 - which had similar issues to the LX505/RZ50

 

[JSmith]

The thought: The review stated the device tested was refurbished. Could this be a problem with a defective unit?

Amir has measured the same issue on other Pioneer AVR's... e.g.;

Review and Measurements of Pioneer VSX-LX303 AVR

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Pioneer Elite VSX-LX303 Audio/Video Receiver (AVR). It was an impulse buy when it went on sale on Amazon a couple of weeks ago for US $369 including Prime shipping. It is currently US $399. I needed a replacement for my current Pioneer Elite...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The question: How would the timer limiting the system to 20 watts manifest itself under normal usage? I.e., while watching a movie or listening to music. How could you tell it had occurred?

I know what you mean... but it's simply not good enough regardless of user impact and is really bordering on false and misleading advertising. When watching a movie at reference level or not far off, it's not hard to hit 20W when the loud sound effects start.


JSmith

 

[dlaloum]

Amir has measured the same issue on other Pioneer AVR's... e.g.;

Review and Measurements of Pioneer VSX-LX303 AVR

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Pioneer Elite VSX-LX303 Audio/Video Receiver (AVR). It was an impulse buy when it went on sale on Amazon a couple of weeks ago for US $369 including Prime shipping. It is currently US $399. I needed a replacement for my current Pioneer Elite...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I know what you mean... but it's simply not good enough regardless of user impact and is really bordering on false and misleading advertising. When watching a movie at reference level or not far off, it's not hard to hit 20W when the loud sound effects start.


JSmith

What speakers are you using that cannot achieve reference level with 20W ?!?

Reference level is 85db ... - for a reference level SPL @ 2m from the speaker using 20W, would require speakers with an SPL of only 69db SPL/wm

I know of no speakers with such an abysmally low efficiency!!