Pioneer VSX-LX505 AVR Review

[JSmith]

Reference level is 85db ...

Speakers and amplifiers must be capable of 105dB peaks If the playback chain is calibrated to produce 85dB for a -20dB signal at the listening position then the speakers and amplifiers could be asked to produce 105dB for a 0dB signal.

THX reference level explained

What is 'THX Reference Level'? Reference level is a calibrated volume setting used for both movie production (in dubbing stages and post production houses) and reproduction (in screening rooms and theaters). The human hearing system is non-linear, especially in the bass, so having a consistent...

acousticfrontiers.com

JSmith

 

[dlaloum]

THX reference level explained

What is 'THX Reference Level'? Reference level is a calibrated volume setting used for both movie production (in dubbing stages and post production houses) and reproduction (in screening rooms and theaters). The human hearing system is non-linear, especially in the bass, so having a consistent...

acousticfrontiers.com

JSmith

OK - but you are I believe mistaking their "amplifier watts" for "amplifier requirements" - they are marking the amp watts in GREEN as it provides more than required... - sadly their article does not provide a link to their calculator...

But we can work through it...

a distance of 11' from the speaker (BIG ROOM) - has an attenuation of 10.5db (they rounded up to 11db)
Handy calculator here: https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/distance-attenuation

so the 90db SPL/wm speaker is 79db /w @11ft

Hence for 1W we get 79db
each doubling of power, gives us an extra 3db SPL...

82db = 2W
85db = 4W

Conveniently for their specific example in their very large room - the reference level is achieved with a grand total of (drum roll) 4W
(yeah they included a fudge factor of -1db as well... speaker efficiency adjustmen... so it might be 5W)

Their amp wattage is therefore GREEN as the continuous RMS requirement is met, given that their amp is 145W and the requirement of the room / speaker is 5W

Checking the peak requirement...

88db = 8W
91db = 16W
94db = 32W
97db = 64W
100db = 128W
103db = 256W
106db = 512W

Hmmm - would like a look at their peak requirements calculator... they specified their amp capabilities as 290W peak - but they should be showing it as NOT MET - as they will get to the 105db needed at somewhere close to 500W

Having said all that - what size room are YOU in? what is your MLP distance from YOUR speakers? and what is the spec efficiency of YOUR speakers?

Also, as a base calculation, Referenc levels should take into account that you will be listening to more than 1 speaker - a 2 speaker calculation will add 3db... for most purposes calculating based on 2 speakers works fine, the main load is carried by the 3 front speakers L/C/R - so you will get more of a boost than 3db - but it is nice to be conservative...
If they took 2 speakers into account, then their 105db is achieved with under 256W... which means their 290W Peak amplifier meets their needs and gets marked GREEN.

In any case - their example is a case in point - the CONTINUOUS requirements of their setup are under 4W for 85db - and that is for a Large Room.

P.S that is open air placement based - if your speakers are close to the wall (within 2ft) then you will get some boost...

 

[RF Air]

Does anybody know the loudest 35 seconds in cinema so we can see if we can trip the nanny circuit with any real content?

I've always enjoyed the Bus and Train Wreck scene in "The Fugitive" which was one of the earliest DVD playback demo testing I used when auditioning 5.1 performance.

 

[dlaloum]

Does anybody know the loudest 35 seconds in cinema so we can see if we can trip the nanny circuit with any real content?

I look forward to hearing about that experiment... make sure it is set to reference level... - then see if it can be tripped (I would need earplugs at that level!)

 

[buz]

And, assuming a subwoofer is used (which I would assume), we presumably get a lot of additional power anyhow...

 

[dlaloum]

Hang on, hang on, are we saying this power limited 35s timer is going to be activated/triggered during normal use, be it music listening or movies......I'm assuming it would be, but I wanted to check, I couldn't quite understand the specific instances where this would come into effect?

EDIT: I've read all the comments in the thread now. Ok, so it might not be a problem in normal use depending on what size your listening space is and what your efficiency of your speakers is......but either way we seem to agree that it doesn't meet the advertised specs - in which case it's a general miss for the product, unless you know your use case won't be specifically affected and you think the AVR is a good value deal for you usage. (I wasn't as severe in my voting on this product as most of you folks! DIRAC & ok SINAD & not extortionate pricing.)

EDIT #2: after doing a spot of AVR research & comparison here on ASR then this certainly isn't the best value option, but I won't give it the lowest rating, I'm close to giving it the lowest rating, but to me it doesn't quite deserve that.

EDIT #3: well if these AVR's are inexpensive in EU compared to other brands then that does sway in it's favour in some instances:

Their power claims in the spec, do not specify the test regime for continuous output, so it may only be able to provide that output for 10s...

There is plenty of wiggle room in their specs! - I doubt that you could fail them on their specified power ratings.

Only one of their specs includes a formal test regime (FTC) - and that is for peak output (which is indeed a momentary output!)

I really would like to see them specified with proper traditional RMS continuous capability into 8ohm, 4ohm and 2ohm specified... (if wishes were fishes....)

 

[dlaloum]

I’ve been thinking more about the nanny issue. While it certainly does not meet FTC spec, would it ever show up under real world usage?

What volume would you need to be pushing an average speaker system in a normal room to trigger the nanny timer?

Say you’re running a 7.2.2 system in a large room with 85dB inefficient speakers 10’ distant. You’d need to be running at constant volume of >98dB to trigger it. (http://www.hometheaterengineering.com/splcalculator.html) Is this realistic?

So, the LX505 does not meet FTC spec but does it really matter? Other than this one issue this AVR seems to be one of the better ones measured. I changed my vote from not terrible to fine. Just my 2¢.

Martin

It only claims FTC spec for peak output - not for continuous...

And yes - the continuous levels would have to be far beyond reference levels to trigger the nanny circuit.

 

[dlaloum]

And, assuming a subwoofer is used (which I would assume), we presumably get a lot of additional power anyhow...

We are talking reference requirements for the main layer speakers... which is 85db continuous and 105db peak

Subwoofers are powered by their own amps - and have seperate requirements - 115db peak - so not directly relevant here, except in making sure that there is a decent line level Sub output

 

[laudio]

I hope these reviews about the power limiting drive the cost way down on these units so I can pick one up on the cheap for the Dirac/preamp. Have always liked the Pioneer VSX styling vs other AVRs.

It seems the manufacturers have found a way to game the system a bit. This is not much different really than amps tripping into protection requiring a power cycle, but sneakier. Albeit at much lower power levels for sure. Somebody mentioned the Onkyo lawsuit - it had a be a fix for that kind of problem (make sure that never happens again!)

 

[laudio]

a distance of 11' from the speaker (BIG ROOM) - has an attenuation of 10.5db (they rounded up to 11db)

Seems more like average for dedicated HT room installs.

 

[Martin]

Does anybody know the loudest 35 seconds in cinema so we can see if we can trip the nanny circuit with any real content?

I always loved demoing the lobby scene from The Matrix:

Martin

 

[Martin]

Do you know if the Integra 3.4 has the the same issue

The Onkyo TX-RZ50 seems to have the same problem so I would expect the Integras (DRX-3.4/5.4) to do it too.

Onkyo TX-RZ50 Review (Home Theater AVR)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Onkyo TX-RZ50 9.2 8K THX Certified AV Receiver. It was purchased new by a member and drop shipped to me for testing. It costs US $1,399. Looks like all AVR companies are trying to break the mold of just dual rotary controls to something...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Martin

 

[ChrisM001]

What I’m asking myself is how relevant these findings are for the normal user. I bought the Onkyo TX-RZ50 and I‘m absolutely delighted about its sound quality for stereo audio and especially for video. After measuring everything with Dirac I never had a sound with my former receivers, that was even nearly as good as that of the Onkyo: super wide sound stage, clear voices, brilliant heights, deep base. Mind blowing. I had an already good Onkyo TX-NR818 with Audyssey XT 32 before but the RZ50 is at least 1 class better. I’m still in the return window. Shall I return this receiver because of your findings?

 

[Martin]

What I’m asking myself is how relevant these findings are for the normal user. I bought the Onkyo TX-RZ50 and I‘m absolutely delighted about its sound quality for stereo audio and especially for video. After measuring everything with Dirac I never had a sound with my former receivers, that was even nearly as good as that of the Onkyo: super wide sound stage, clear voices, brilliant heights, deep base. Mind blowing. I had an already good Onkyo TX-NR818 with Audyssey XT 32 before but the RZ50 is at least 1 class better. I’m still in the return window. Shall I return this receiver because of your findings?

I would not return it if you are happy with it in your environment. While these devices clearly do not meet spec as defined by the FTC, that miss seems to have little to no bearing in the real world. I need to replace my aging Pioneer Elite SC-LX801 and will likely purchase one of the Premium Audio AVRs - Onkyo TX-RZ50, Pioneer Elite VSX-LX505 or Integra DRX-5.4 even knowing the results of these tests. Dirac Live at these prices is what’s pushing me over the top vs. having to pay more 3-12 months down the road to get the same functionality on a Sound United AVR - Denon AVR-X3800H or Marantz Cinema 50. Again, just my opinion.

Martin

 

[dlaloum]

Seems more like average for dedicated HT room installs.

I would suggest / assume, that most HT's are in fact shared living spaces, not dedicated Theatres.

Most screens discussed are circa 65"... and optimal viewing distances would therefore be around 2.3m / 7ft

A point worthy of keeping in mind also, is that the " average " HT " tends to vary substantially, between USA and UK/EU or Japan ... as do construction standards / materials, etc...
Hence differing preferences in speakers, subs, etc...

 

[dlaloum]

I would not return it if you are happy with it in your environment. While these devices clearly do not meet spec as defined by the FTC, that miss seems to have little to no bearing in the real world. I need to replace my aging Pioneer Elite SC-LX801 and will likely purchase one of the Premium Audio AVRs - Onkyo TX-RZ50, Pioneer Elite VSX-LX505 or Integra DRX-5.4 even knowing the results of these tests. Dirac Live at these prices is what’s pushing me over the top vs. having to pay more 3-12 months down the road to get the same functionality on a Sound United AVR - Denon AVR-X3800H or Marantz Cinema 50. Again, just my opinion.

Martin

Could you please point out, which FTC spec these fail to meet ?

P.s. recent updates to the onkyo WiFi certification listing's indicate an LX805 has been certified.

Might be more your speed than an LX505...

 

[dlaloum]

What I’m asking myself is how relevant these findings are for the normal user. I bought the Onkyo TX-RZ50 and I‘m absolutely delighted about its sound quality for stereo audio and especially for video. After measuring everything with Dirac I never had a sound with my former receivers, that was even nearly as good as that of the Onkyo: super wide sound stage, clear voices, brilliant heights, deep base. Mind blowing. I had an already good Onkyo TX-NR818 with Audyssey XT 32 before but the RZ50 is at least 1 class better. I’m still in the return window. Shall I return this receiver because of your findings?

My integra drx3.4, replaced an integra dtr 70.4. Another XT32 device.

I concur that with Dirac it raises performance by a class.

 

[Doodski]

What does Dirac do? Does it scan the system with a frequency sweep, pink noise etc and then auto configure for the best sound via a microphone? or is it different?

 

[Martin]

Could you please point out, which FTC spec these fail to meet ?

P.s. recent updates to the onkyo WiFi certification listing's indicate an LX805 has been certified.

Might be more your speed than an LX505...

Pioneer VSX-LX505 AVR Review

My last house was an Eichler copy with a 1,000 sq ft living room and 12' ceilings at the peak. Big room to fill. I had an Aerial Acoustics surround system (very inefficient speakers ) and a JL F113 sub. I had some people over to watch Master and Commander at a high volume and it sounded like...

www.audiosciencereview.com

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[Ra1zel]

And 20W is enough for normal listening

In my vegetable storage room maybe