Pioneer VSX-LX505 AVR Review

[Power Pop 23]

Funny how people on the Internet always choose to filter out all the important things and distill everything down to the stuff that allows them to feel "attacked" and "hurt" or whatever.

I tried to help you multiple times, and all I got was the feeling that you don't want to be helped at all. You made up your mind, and no wonder with someone so actively manipulating you as EWL5.
He's posted in this thread more times than ANYBODY who actually owns the receiver this thread is about.
He has never even USED that receiver. Yet, for some weird reason, he cannot stay away from this thread, to spread FUD and direct people towards Denon.

It would be utterly amusing if it weren't so goddamn infuriating to witness.

Consider using honey to catch flies instead of vinegar.

 

[EWL5]

Consider using honey to catch flies instead of vinegar.

That's just great advice for ALL aspects of life! Negative thinking has never powered a successful venture nor won a tough negotiation!

 

[vitola231]

Funny how people on the Internet always choose to filter out all the important things and distill everything down to the stuff that allows them to feel "attacked" and "hurt" or whatever.

I tried to help you multiple times, and all I got was the feeling that you don't want to be helped at all. You made up your mind, and no wonder with someone so actively manipulating you as EWL5.
He's posted in this thread more times than ANYBODY who actually owns the receiver this thread is about.
He has never even USED that receiver. Yet, for some weird reason, he cannot stay away from this thread, to spread FUD and direct people towards Denon.

It would be utterly amusing if it weren't so goddamn infuriating to witness.

Funny how people on the Internet always choose to filter out all the important things and distill everything down to the stuff that allows them to feel "attacked" and "hurt" or whatever.

I tried to help you multiple times, and all I got was the feeling that you don't want to be helped at all. You made up your mind, and no wonder with someone so actively manipulating you as EWL5.
He's posted in this thread more times than ANYBODY who actually owns the receiver this thread is about.
He has never even USED that receiver. Yet, for some weird reason, he cannot stay away from this thread, to spread FUD and direct people towards Denon.

It would be utterly amusing if it weren't so goddamn infuriating to witness.

I appreciated your help and took the receiver back out of the box specifically because of your advice and tried again doing everything you told me to (within my capability), when I posted the results you stated I had no problems and it was basically all my imagination but on the first one the change in output or sound was very profound when whatever happened happened (this was on both bluray and TV inputs). In my original post I carefully laid out the sequence of events. Your saying receivers don't have a sound and its all source dependant but I don't personally believe this, I liked the sound of the pioneer right out of the box (before any room correction), liked it more than my Anthem, a lot more (though you accuse me of being biassed against the Pioneer?). I'm biased against the Denon because I had in the past never liked the Denon sound previously owning them though this may be a thing of the past (my last Denon was in 2005). My wife prefers the sound of the Anthem over the Pioneer . Your saying I should "buy the Denon and I will IMAGINE it will sound better" and "I just want to get rid of the Pioneer" which I could have easily done without all the writing posts and reading (not only here but on Redit posts describing exact same issue) and testing. Obviously I was trying very hard to keep the Pioneer. After saying all this is my imagination or some inherent bias your accusing me of filtering the important stuff and feeling attacked. I never "made up my mind" if I had I wouldn't have gone through all the testing. I personally don't care which name is on the machine generally though I'm a bit biassed against Denon from past experiences with sound.

All of this creates a dilemma for me especially since I don't know what the root cause of the problem is and I can only ASSUME that EWL5 is correct about my speakers being the root cause of the problem (though it was great for like 3 days), maybe 9 Mirage omni speakers is uniquely an issue (it is worth noting that although he is clearly biased towards Denon I was able to find the data confirming exactly what he said about my speakers being an issue which is an important piece of information for me going forward). I can stick with the same brand and go to a VSX-LX805 or TX-RZ70 or Integra equivalent and see how that goes but were into some serious money, maybe their predecessors (assuming my speakers are the problem a heavier amp section should eliminate this). I can try the Denon or Marantz product line, could be great though no deals on new but a few good deals used. I can follow my heart and look at some of the used flagships i'm very attracted to ( I have a NAD T778 and Arcam AVR11 saved in marketplace that are really great deals but from what I read I had better keep the Anthem close by for the inevitable failures). Nad and Anthem have an advantage that they are both headquartered within 2 hours of me.

 

[MbphotoX]

I appreciated your help and took the receiver back out of the box specifically because of your advice and tried again doing everything you told me to (within my capability), when I posted the results you stated I had no problems and it was basically all my imagination but on the first one the change in output or sound was very profound when whatever happened happened (this was on both bluray and TV inputs). In my original post I carefully laid out the sequence of events. Your saying receivers don't have a sound and its all source dependant but I don't personally believe this, I liked the sound of the pioneer right out of the box (before any room correction), liked it more than my Anthem, a lot more (though you accuse me of being biassed against the Pioneer?). I'm biased against the Denon because I had in the past never liked the Denon sound previously owning them though this may be a thing of the past (my last Denon was in 2005). My wife prefers the sound of the Anthem over the Pioneer . Your saying I should "buy the Denon and I will IMAGINE it will sound better" and "I just want to get rid of the Pioneer" which I could have easily done without all the writing posts and reading (not only here but on Redit posts describing exact same issue) and testing. Obviously I was trying very hard to keep the Pioneer. After saying all this is my imagination or some inherent bias your accusing me of filtering the important stuff and feeling attacked. I never "made up my mind" if I had I wouldn't have gone through all the testing. I personally don't care which name is on the machine generally though I'm a bit biassed against Denon from past experiences with sound.

All of this creates a dilemma for me especially since I don't know what the root cause of the problem is and I can only ASSUME that EWL5 is correct about my speakers being the root cause of the problem (though it was great for like 3 days), maybe 9 Mirage omni speakers is uniquely an issue (it is worth noting that although he is clearly biased towards Denon I was able to find the data confirming exactly what he said about my speakers being an issue which is an important piece of information for me going forward). I can stick with the same brand and go to a VSX-LX805 or TX-RZ70 or Integra equivalent and see how that goes but were into some serious money, maybe their predecessors (assuming my speakers are the problem a heavier amp section should eliminate this). I can try the Denon or Marantz product line, could be great though no deals on new but a few good deals used. I can follow my heart and look at some of the used flagships i'm very attracted to ( I have a NAD T778 and Arcam AVR11 saved in marketplace that are really great deals but from what I read I had better keep the Anthem close by for the inevitable failures). Nad and Anthem have an advantage that they are both headquartered within 2 hours of me.

Your Anthem has MUCH less power than the Pioneer. (it's rated at 100W per channel at 8 ohms, feeding 2 speakers!)
Even when feeding 7 passive speakers, the Pioneer can put out nearly 90 Watts per channel. That is thanks to the immense power supply the company put in there.
(Most AV-Receivers come with 300-400 Watt power supplies. the Denon, iirc, has 600 Watts.. and the Pioneer has a 750 or 800W power supply. )

iirc, Your speakers dip to 4 Ohms, which is not a problem at all. (As I said before, mine go to 3 Ohms, and we've had people with even harder-to-drive speakers use the same receiver)


your insistence in "Amplifier sound" is what's triggering me, by the way. You don't have to "believe" me. I'm not the one who ran hundreds of research experiments proving that there is no such thing as "amplifier sound".
In order to properly compare the sound of systems, you need to very thoroughly match output volume. (because even 0.5-1dB in difference causes a VAST difference in perceived sound quality.. louder ALWAYS sounds better and fuller!)
You should also eliminate any expectation bias, by eliminating any visual component. (i.e. you'd need to conduct a blind test!)

Without doing so, your claim as to "this sounds better than that" simply holds no weight in this forum called audioSCIENCEreview.


And while my suggestion to spend thousands on a Denon to imagine it sounding better may come across as rage bait or an insult or whatever.
It's deeply rooted in psychology.
It's called expectation bias, and it works wonders for humans across the globe.
From esoteric rituals, over homeopathic remedies, over spiritual healers, all the way to luxury goods. People expect more from something that has more value, even if said value is not real.
By spending 4000 dollars, you would be an utter fool NOT to expect a better quality.. Why on earth would you spend this much money on something if not to get much better, right?! And that expectation directly flows into your perception.




I'm not sure how your technical expertise is, because I didn't get the impression that you really know what you're doing while "testing" the receiver. Maybe it's just me struggling to follow your description of your actions, though.
You never engaged with the various recommendations and explanations I provided.

Did you ever check what exactly it is that the receiver is putting out?
Is it Stereo, surround, or actual bitstream from the blu-ray?

Your last test indicated that the volume was fine, since -37dB produced a comfortable level (-37dB is absolutely too quiet for me to enjoy music or a movie.. I need TWICE as loud, at -27dB roughly) for internal processing (internet radio, no?)
That leads me to believe that there is an issue with the output level from the tv, or the blu-ray player (did you test that?)

anyways, this sounds like the hdmi input is not receiving the correct input level of audio.

And it's very well possible that the update of the receiver changed something in the hdmi settings.

 

[vitola231]

I think I just accidentally found the problem. Every once in a while at certain frequencies I would get a crackling sound out of the front right speaker, not a constant problem but it did happen, I figured it was just a bad driver. Note, my wife's cat always fools around behind this speaker. So, today I got this crackling sound and decided to poke around a bit and saw as pictured. Replaying the specific scene that causes the crackling separating the cables (sleeves) and crackling stops, touch them together and it starts again. Using an ohm meter I tested these sleeves, they don't conduct unless I pierce what appears to be a painted coating then they do conduct electricity. It's the oddest thing, I could watch a whole movie without issue except for a specific part of the movie where there will be crackling. It seems only certain frequencies go right through this insulating coating. These cables are stiff and get bundled together into a mesh sleeve, looking behind my receiver with an inspection camera I can see when console is pushed back in these come close to touching. I have just finished removing all the sleeves etc.

It is possible that, even though the Anthem coped with this, that this may be the cause of the problem experienced with the Pioneer. It can fit with the sequence of events (first unit sounded great one day then next day had no sound on startup which was fixed with a reset, then 2 days sounding great then suddenly low volume upon startup that couldn't be fixed with a reset. Unit 2 immediately low volume). It could be that the media playing happened to hit the frequency that causes the crackling sound and damaged something in the Pioneers or triggered a protection mode. The web interface never showed protection but who knows.

To me this makes more sense then the update causing this even though the update fits perfectly with the sequence of fault though I have no idea how only a certain frequency goes through the insulation but could be a thing. The unit is returned so that boat has sailed so for anyone reading this considering purchasing this series of receiver (pioneer, onkyo, integra) I can only say my impression of this receiver (excluding faults) is out of the box it's the best sounding unit I have ever purchased, I was stunned. The MCAC room correction was very easy to use, wired internet connection was easy etc etc. Negatives for me are the HDMI "control" was frustrating but could easily be the TV or other items using CEC causing oddities. I could never get bluetooth working, nor could my devices find the pioneer bluetooth but I never really pursued it.

 

[peng]

Your saying receivers don't have a sound and its all source dependant but I don't personally believe this, I liked the sound of the pioneer right out of the box (before any room correction), liked it more than my Anthem, a lot more (though you accuse me of being biassed against the Pioneer?). I'm biased against the Denon because I had in the past never liked the Denon sound previously owning them though this may be a thing of the past (my last Denon was in 2005). My wife prefers the sound of the Anthem over the Pioneer .

I wouldn't agree to everything @MbphotoX said, but on the AVR sound thing I would agree, with nuance. If you believe that they do have a certain "sound", then it is your belief, and others may not share. Facts (such as verifiable specs, DBT results etc.) and figures (bench test results) do seem to indicate that if no DSP functions are uses, example the so called pure direct mode, then they really don't have a specific "sound (or what they call sound signature?" when used within their limits. If DSP functions are used, then it is hard to compare in apples to apples and obviously then they would likely sound different enough to most users.

You also alluded to "the sound of the Anthem....", yet fyi, Anthem specifically stated the following in their FAQ, that to some extent contradicts some common beliefs (then again, beliefs are just beliefs) of many users including their own's:

None of our components are designed with a "sonic flavor" other than playing exactly what's in a recording. Unfortunately with pop CD mastering, pushing levels way into overload regardless of how much distortion this adds is all too common. Recordings of acoustic instruments with minimal or no processing during mastering sound more natural, therefore they are a much better test of how natural-sounding the playback equipment is.

Sound reproduction equipment doesn't know the difference between a music signal and a movie signal, or for that matter the musical score within a movie soundtrack. Accurate for one means accurate for the other.

Personally, I think when people hear those different "sound signature", there could be real reasons other than bias and/or Placebo, but may or may not be due to the devices hardware.

 

[vitola231]

If you believe that then it is your belief, and people obviously have their own belief that may not be the same as others. Facts (such as verifiable specs, DBT results etc.) and figures (bench test results) do seem to indicate that if no DSP functions are uses, example the so called pure direct mode, then they really don't have a specific "sound" when used well within their limit. If DSP functions are used, then it is hard to compare and obviously then they would likely sound different enough to most users.

You also alluded to "the sound of the Anthem....", yet fyi, Anthem specifically stated the following in their FAQ, that to some extent contradicts some common beliefs (then again, beliefs are just beliefs) of many users including their own's:

how about I rephrase to "with my use the pioneer sounded better" which is HDMI based movies going through surround sound processing. Maybe "pure direct" would produce the exact same sound or close to the same. I'm simply stating my experience as I use/used the machine, it's simply not my imagination. As for my perception being clouded I must say I perceive the Anthem as the better machine though for home theatre it's well outdated so if I had a bias it would be positive towards the Anthem sounding better and really these machines are all about the processing.

 

[ban25]

I think I just accidentally found the problem. Every once in a while at certain frequencies I would get a crackling sound out of the front right speaker, not a constant problem but it did happen, I figured it was just a bad driver. Note, my wife's cat always fools around behind this speaker. So, today I got this crackling sound and decided to poke around a bit and saw as pictured. Replaying the specific scene that causes the crackling separating the cables (sleeves) and crackling stops, touch them together and it starts again. Using an ohm meter I tested these sleeves, they don't conduct unless I pierce what appears to be a painted coating then they do conduct electricity. It's the oddest thing, I could watch a whole movie without issue except for a specific part of the movie where there will be crackling. It seems only certain frequencies go right through this insulating coating. These cables are stiff and get bundled together into a mesh sleeve, looking behind my receiver with an inspection camera I can see when console is pushed back in these come close to touching. I have just finished removing all the sleeves etc.

I'm not a big fan of spades because they have a habit of working themselves loose. I recommend getting some banana plugs, removing the red and black caps on your speaker terminals, and using those instead. It will provide a much more reliable connection.

 

[vitola231]

I'm not a big fan of spades because they have a habit of working themselves loose. I recommend getting some banana plugs, removing the red and black caps on your speaker terminals, and using those instead. It will provide a much more reliable connection.

Yeah, they aren't so good but I don't think using metal sleeves is such a good idea either. On back of receiver they are banana plugs (connectors are convertible between banana and spade) and they are sloppy enough to easily make those sleeves touch. I did send an email back to Pioneer explaining what I found, I would feel very bad if I ruined or damaged two receivers because of this.

 

[Bob101]

Onkyo/Pioneer/Integra need to change the way that the output protection works.
Let us hope that higher end Avrs are coming with a better protection unit design!

Class D is the only real answer to all of budget AVR's problems. Cheaper, more efiiciënt and with some competent engineering sounding simply better... Why manufacturers keep pushing inferior classAB designs they KNOW don't perform is beyond me. It's truly shameful, no other word. Since Hypex and purifi for me there is no more reason to buy a class AB amp. Feel free to think otherwise. if you have a room to put a lot of ineficciënt, heavy stoves in to power your surround, you're just dumb IMO not to go the class D route, with some caveats. I'm not calling anybody actually stupid, just ill-informed by a stupid industry that hopes you won't notice their products are simply BAD.

 

[MbphotoX]

Class D is the only real answer to all of budget AVR's problems. Cheaper, more efiiciënt and with some competent engineering sounding simply better... Why manufacturers keep pushing inferior classAB designs they KNOW don't perform is beyond me. It's truly shameful, no other word. Since Hypex and purifi for me there is no more reason to buy a class AB amp. Feel free to think otherwise. if you have a room to put a lot of ineficciënt, heavy stoves in to power your surround, you're just dumb IMO not to go the class D route, with some caveats. I'm not calling anybody actually stupid, just ill-informed by a stupid industry that hopes you won't notice their products are simply BAD.

my previous Pioneer (which I only gave up because it couldn't do passthrough HDR video) was the SC-LX57 with a class D amp.
Pretty awesome design, too.

 

[MbphotoX]

I think I just accidentally found the problem. Every once in a while at certain frequencies I would get a crackling sound out of the front right speaker, not a constant problem but it did happen, I figured it was just a bad driver. Note, my wife's cat always fools around behind this speaker. So, today I got this crackling sound and decided to poke around a bit and saw as pictured. Replaying the specific scene that causes the crackling separating the cables (sleeves) and crackling stops, touch them together and it starts again. Using an ohm meter I tested these sleeves, they don't conduct unless I pierce what appears to be a painted coating then they do conduct electricity. It's the oddest thing, I could watch a whole movie without issue except for a specific part of the movie where there will be crackling. It seems only certain frequencies go right through this insulating coating. These cables are stiff and get bundled together into a mesh sleeve, looking behind my receiver with an inspection camera I can see when console is pushed back in these come close to touching. I have just finished removing all the sleeves etc.

It is possible that, even though the Anthem coped with this, that this may be the cause of the problem experienced with the Pioneer. It can fit with the sequence of events (first unit sounded great one day then next day had no sound on startup which was fixed with a reset, then 2 days sounding great then suddenly low volume upon startup that couldn't be fixed with a reset. Unit 2 immediately low volume). It could be that the media playing happened to hit the frequency that causes the crackling sound and damaged something in the Pioneers or triggered a protection mode. The web interface never showed protection but who knows.

To me this makes more sense then the update causing this even though the update fits perfectly with the sequence of fault though I have no idea how only a certain frequency goes through the insulation but could be a thing. The unit is returned so that boat has sailed so for anyone reading this considering purchasing this series of receiver (pioneer, onkyo, integra) I can only say my impression of this receiver (excluding faults) is out of the box it's the best sounding unit I have ever purchased, I was stunned. The MCAC room correction was very easy to use, wired internet connection was easy etc etc. Negatives for me are the HDMI "control" was frustrating but could easily be the TV or other items using CEC causing oddities. I could never get bluetooth working, nor could my devices find the pioneer bluetooth but I never really pursued it.

Why did you return it so quickly?!
It was still under warranty and any issue could've been fixed even after the return window has closed.

Maybe I'm just too spoiled by the European warranty laws, but so far, I have always "won" when there was an issue with a device.

 

[EWL5]

I think I just accidentally found the problem. Every once in a while at certain frequencies I would get a crackling sound out of the front right speaker, not a constant problem but it did happen, I figured it was just a bad driver. Note, my wife's cat always fools around behind this speaker. So, today I got this crackling sound and decided to poke around a bit and saw as pictured. Replaying the specific scene that causes the crackling separating the cables (sleeves) and crackling stops, touch them together and it starts again. Using an ohm meter I tested these sleeves, they don't conduct unless I pierce what appears to be a painted coating then they do conduct electricity. It's the oddest thing, I could watch a whole movie without issue except for a specific part of the movie where there will be crackling. It seems only certain frequencies go right through this insulating coating. These cables are stiff and get bundled together into a mesh sleeve, looking behind my receiver with an inspection camera I can see when console is pushed back in these come close to touching. I have just finished removing all the sleeves etc.

It is possible that, even though the Anthem coped with this, that this may be the cause of the problem experienced with the Pioneer. It can fit with the sequence of events (first unit sounded great one day then next day had no sound on startup which was fixed with a reset, then 2 days sounding great then suddenly low volume upon startup that couldn't be fixed with a reset. Unit 2 immediately low volume). It could be that the media playing happened to hit the frequency that causes the crackling sound and damaged something in the Pioneers or triggered a protection mode. The web interface never showed protection but who knows.

To me this makes more sense then the update causing this even though the update fits perfectly with the sequence of fault though I have no idea how only a certain frequency goes through the insulation but could be a thing. The unit is returned so that boat has sailed so for anyone reading this considering purchasing this series of receiver (pioneer, onkyo, integra) I can only say my impression of this receiver (excluding faults) is out of the box it's the best sounding unit I have ever purchased, I was stunned. The MCAC room correction was very easy to use, wired internet connection was easy etc etc. Negatives for me are the HDMI "control" was frustrating but could easily be the TV or other items using CEC causing oddities. I could never get bluetooth working, nor could my devices find the pioneer bluetooth but I never really pursued it.

I might have an answer to why your Anthem is "ok" where the Pioneer was not:

ASR has a review of the MRX520 and while it may be 2 models after your MRX500, it still can inform of us what the company typically does in terms of power. Thankfully, rating for the MRX520 is also 100W into 8 ohms for 2CH!

Amir's test of the 8 ohm output for the MRX520:

and Amir's test of the 4 ohm output for the MRX520:

Not great...but also not limping along at 35W into 2CH either!

Again, MRX500 vs MRX520 is not apples to apples but hopefully the above gives some insight into why you preferred the Anthem over the Pioneer.

 

[MbphotoX]

Even at 35 Watts, those speakers with 90dB sensitivity would produce WELL over 100dB SPL. (You can drive them with a tube amp putting out 10 Watts and still easily destroy your hearing..)

Please stop it already with your whiney bitching about the "limp mode"...

 

[EWL5]

Even at 35 Watts, those speakers with 90dB sensitivity would produce WELL over 100dB SPL. (You can drive them with a tube amp putting out 10 Watts and still easily destroy your hearing..)

Please stop it already with your whiney bitching about the "limp mode"...

I've been largely ignoring your comments for my sake as well as others but this type of ignorance needs to be addressed:

That 35W is only over 2 channels. What happens when a demanding movie soundtrack or multichannel audio FLAC, SACD, DVD-D, etc. is blaring from most of the speakers/channels? What is 35W going to buy you then, huh?

You probably get what vitola231 and dlaloum have been experiencing, that's what!

Do you have stock in Pioneer or work for PAC? I'm not understanding your apologist attitude when it comes to this AVR. Go ahead and make fun of my 3800 and call it expensive!

 

[Printdivision]

I think the vitolla moment was a breath of fresh air for you. I think there are many like you here (you can see from the notes/scores given), they don't have the device) but..........the device is bad, it puts out 35 watts.

 

[peng]

Even at 35 Watts, those speakers with 90dB sensitivity would produce WELL over 100dB SPL. (You can drive them with a tube amp putting out 10 Watts and still easily destroy your hearing..)

Please stop it already with your whiney bitching about the "limp mode"...

I am sure in many use cases, the so called limp mode may not matter because in those cases it may never, or too rarely get activated. For other cases where users are affected, it wouldn't matter as much if the manufacturer had included warning/indicator when the mode is active. There is likely other simple fix they can do, but at the minimum they should offer a FW update that adds a "limp mode" indicator so that the user knows and have the option to back off the volume accordingly after a power cycle.

It is good that there are people "whiney.." about this, as it might increase the chance that manufacturers might be more motivated to do something about it. It is also good to see manufacturers value continuous improvements in terms of quality, and that includes not just in terms of reliability but also performance.

 

[EWL5]

I am sure in many use cases, the so called limp mode may not matter because in those cases it may never, or too rarely get activated. For other cases where users are affected, it wouldn't matter as much if the manufacturer had included warning/indicator when the mode is active. There is likely other simple fix they can do, but at the minimum they should offer a FW update that adds a "limp mode" indicator so that the user knows and have the option to back off the volume accordingly after a power cycle.

It is good that there are people "whiney.." about this, as it might increase the chance that manufacturers might be more motivated to do something about it. It is also good to see manufacturers value continuous improvements in terms of quality, and that includes not just in terms of reliability but also performance.

Ironically, none of this "expose" from Amir has impacted sales in the least. If anything, it may embolden Denon, Marantz, and others who don't currently do this on purpose to create a "limp mode" of their own! It is then that the full fury of ASR members will fall on MbphotoX and the other PAC apologists for calling me and others "whiney" (feel free to bookmark this post to see if it ages well).

 

[Power Pop 23]

I think it likely 'Pioneer' has joined other brands (Kenwood, JVC, Sherwood) that used to be prominent in home theaters.

Let's consider passing around a 'collection plate' to cover the 2-way, insured shipping costs for a member to send an Onkyo TX-RZ30 AVR to Amir for measurement - pre-scheduled for a quick turnaround time.

 

[EWL5]

I think it likely 'Pioneer' has joined other brands (Kenwood, JVC, Sherwood) that used to be prominent in home theaters.

Let's consider passing around a 'collection plate' to cover the 2-way, insured shipping costs for a member to send an Onkyo TX-RZ30 AVR to Amir for measurement - pre-scheduled for a quick turnaround time.

I know there have been a number of folks pining for a measurement of the RZ30. I don't think it's necessary and here's why:

1) 2021 PAC AVRs enjoyed a great debut and held pricing for some time.
2) Less than 3 years later, these AVRs can be found heavily discounted (well before Pioneer license was dropped)
3) The RZ30 came out Oct '24 and held near retail price for a bit.
4) Just about a year later, the RZ30 could be had at considerable discount. It was going for as low as $700 in the States. It wasn't lost on a lot of enthusiasts that the RZ30 was just an incremental update over the '21 7100/305/DRX3.4 clones.

Based on the above, does anyone truly think that Onkyo beefed up the RZ30 in any appreciable way based on how quickly street prices dropped? Yes, this is complete speculation but I find it funny that Denon/Marantz units increased in both retail and pre-owned pricing in the same timeframe!