Pioneer VSX-LX505 AVR Review

[ryanmh1]

Seriously? That's really odd. Never heard about this before. But then again... well, if the manufacturer tells me to do so and the outcome is crap, I'll sent their unit back. No buy, not sorry.
Thank you for this hint!

Let's just quote Audioholics on it, since those are more of a feature/product review than ASR which is more of a measurement dataset. I know Amir has noted it at least once ( can't find it except where it shows up in measurements), but Audioholics puts this or something similar is a bold box in many reviews:

"Editorial Note: Impedance Selector Switch – No matter how tempted you may be to do so, we DO NOT recommend changing the default "6 ohm min" impedance setting of ANY AV receiver, especially this unit. All this does is starve your speakers of power, simply so the manufacturer can get 4-ohm certification (at a reduced power level) without making the receiver get too hot during their power tests. We have tested this 'feature' on virtually every receiver that has offered it in the past, and the results were always the same: the low impedance setting significantly robs your speakers of power."

This is so because while it works fine with music on 4 ohms, on a test signal it will get too hot due to the tiny heatsinks servicing all channels. Certification testing is much more rigorous than playing music or a movie.

All you need to do is plug one of these things in, run room correction, and you're going to have better sound on ordinary speakers than most other "set it and forget it" solutions you can come come up with unless you have unusual power needs. You will not trigger power limiting, you will not have noise issues, and you will likely not have distortion issues. Are they the best amplifiers ever? Obviously not. If you had hiss or noise issues, you might do well to try a Denon, since they are a tiny bit quieter. If you want something objectively "perfect", lay out the money and use the preouts. The idea that somehow you don't get plenty of volume from the preouts or "weak bass" is just wrong, unless anyone can explain any possible mechanism for that, and I've never heard of one. That said, even the internal amps are quieter than a lot of TOTL amps from the 90s, so I don't think you're likely to run into an issue when you use it within its limits. Honestly, just go get the thing back from the store and don't turn on 4 ohm mode. If you think you then hear anything (unless it is hiss) in the bass or midrange, you're probably fooling yourself. Treble? Remotely possible, but still pretty unlikely. Particularly on surround channels.

 

[fadetoblackbs]

I like a lot mine LX503 for its versatility and price. In search for a better stereo expericence, first I used its Front L/R Preouts to connect it to my Sansui amplifier. The result was better for my ears. The second step was to isolate stereo music listening from the Pioneer, as I commented before. I got one or two steps ahead.

Well, they are losing, as me in the begining, a great oportunity to a better level of clear benefit, not necessarelly spending much for that. You can trust it.

So what does your current setup look like? The LX503 + Sansui +…
O brigado

 

[peng]

I dream with an AV receiver to have a great stereo performance, but they are very busy making a lot of things. The very expensive NAD T778 could be the one, but they say that it has a lot of issues and reliability is a major concern. ARCAM might be a bet, but they are expensive and with lots of software issues.

“expensive” NAD? I am more than happy with my cheap Denon lol.. No NAD performed more transparent than Denon’s or Onkyo’s so far, on the test bench, thanks to Amir’s work.

 

[MLaranjeiras]

So what does your current setup look like? The LX503 + Sansui +…
O brigado

So what does your current setup look like? The LX503 + Sansui +…
O brigado

 

[MLaranjeiras]

Vamos apenas citar Audioholics sobre isso, já que essas são mais uma análise de recurso/produto do que ASR, que é mais um conjunto de dados de medição. Eu sei que Amir notou isso pelo menos uma vez (não consigo encontrar, exceto onde aparece em medições), mas Audioholics coloca isso ou algo semelhante em uma caixa em negrito em muitas análises:

" Nota editorial: Chave seletora de impedância – Não importa o quão tentado você esteja a fazer isso, NÃO recomendamos alterar a configuração de impedância padrão "6 ohm min" de QUALQUER receptor AV, especialmente esta unidade. Tudo o que isso faz é privar seus alto-falantes de energia, simplesmente para que o fabricante possa obter a certificação de 4 ohms (em um nível de energia reduzido) sem fazer o receptor esquentar muito durante seus testes de energia. Testamos esse "recurso" em praticamente todos os receptores que o ofereceram no passado, e os resultados foram sempre os mesmos: a configuração de baixa impedância rouba significativamente a energia de seus alto-falantes."

Isso ocorre porque, embora funcione bem com música em 4 ohms, em um sinal de teste ele esquentará muito devido aos minúsculos dissipadores de calor que atendem a todos os canais. O teste de certificação é muito mais rigoroso do que tocar música ou um filme.

Tudo o que você precisa fazer é conectar uma dessas coisas, executar a correção de ambiente e você terá um som melhor em alto-falantes comuns do que a maioria das outras soluções do tipo "configure e esqueça" que você pode inventar, a menos que tenha necessidades incomuns de energia. Você não acionará a limitação de energia, não terá problemas de ruído e provavelmente não terá problemas de distorção. Eles são os melhores amplificadores de todos os tempos? Obviamente não. Se você teve problemas de chiado ou ruído, pode ser bom tentar um Denon, já que eles são um pouco mais silenciosos. Se você quer algo objetivamente "perfeito", gaste o dinheiro e use os pré-saídas. A ideia de que de alguma forma você não obtém muito volume dos pré-saídas ou "graves fracos" é simplesmente errada, a menos que alguém possa explicar qualquer mecanismo possível para isso, e eu nunca ouvi falar de um. Dito isso, até mesmo os amplificadores internos são mais silenciosos do que muitos amplificadores TOTL dos anos 90, então não acho que você provavelmente terá problemas ao usá-lo dentro de seus limites. Honestamente, vá buscar a coisa de volta na loja e não ligue o modo 4 ohm. Se você acha que ouve alguma coisa (a menos que seja um chiado) nos graves ou médios, provavelmente está se enganando. Agudos? Remotamente possível, mas ainda bem improvável. Particularmente em canais surround.I

In fact, my mistake. There are 4 and 6 ohms options on my Pioneer VSX LX503

 

[MLaranjeiras]

“expensive” NAD? I am more than happy with my cheap Denon lol.. No NAD performed more transparent than Denon’s or Onkyo’s so far, on the test bench, thanks to Amir’s work.

I mentioned NAD T778 because its stereo perfomance could be enough for me. But it was erased from my wishlist. Also, to maintain such gear here in Brazil is almost impossible. I bought the Pioneer VSX LX 503 on Amazon USA for $549.00 in 2019. It is cheap, with local authorized Onkyo service in my city and does it all it proposes to do. For an US$ 300.00 on my Sansui AU 317, it delivers better stereo performance. But I discovered that an extra stereo oriented investiment of US$ 800 (Mac Mini, DAC and better USB and RCA cables), delivered an even better result to my years. Once I like that much stereo, the next step from my perspective is to invest on a dedicated streamer, like an used Lumin D2 (not before to listen and compare with what I already have).

 

[dlaloum]

Seriously? That's really odd. Never heard about this before. But then again... well, if the manufacturer tells me to do so and the outcome is crap, I'll sent their unit back. No buy, not sorry.
Thank you for this hint!

In most (all?) current generation AVR's, there are intelligent "protection" circuits that (in theory) identify when the amps are getting stressed (heat?, current consumption?) and switch modes to the "low impedance" setting automatically...

What this means is that you might as well take advantage of the full power of the amp, and if it needs the 4ohm (in some cases 6ohm) setting - it will switch to it on its own.

The "protection" mode on the Onkyo/Pioneer/Integra AVR's is the same as the 4ohm mode.

 

[dlaloum]

I dream with an AV receiver to have a great stereo performance, but they are very busy making a lot of things. The very expensive NAD T778 could be the one, but they say that it has a lot of issues and reliability is a major concern. ARCAM might be a bet, but they are expensive and with lots of software issues.

The flagship models tend to have specs approaching those of stereo integrated amps...

But it does get expensive when you are seeking similar performance to a 2 channel integrated with a device that is effectively a 14 or 16 channel integrated.... ( 7x the channels, so it should be 7x the price !? )

There are beasts out there that make those claims - but their pricing matches their claims.

The performance of the LX805/RZ70/DRX8.4 is a distinct notch up on the more mainstream models, the (much more expensive) flagship Marantz & Denon AVP/AVR take things further, but are more than double the $ more expensive... (as an example)

 

[MLaranjeiras]

In most (all?) current generation AVR's, there are intelligent "protection" circuits that (in theory) identify when the amps are getting stressed (heat?, current consumption?) and switch modes to the "low impedance" setting automatically...

What this means is that you might as well take advantage of the full power of the amp, and if it needs the 4ohm (in some cases 6ohm) setting - it will switch to it on its own.

The "protection" mode on the Onkyo/Pioneer/Integra AVR's is the same as the 4ohm mode.

Here, it did no happen. Generated a message and went to assistence

 

[MLaranjeiras]

An other advantage of listening stereo music via the Pioneer is to count on the subwoofer, a good convenience when using bookshelf speakers.

 

[dlaloum]

Here, it did no happen. Generated a message and went to assistenceView attachment 397187

Ouch... did that come up when you tried to run your speakers?

There's a thread on AVSForums about that error - sadly no conclusion about its root cause!

Did you find a root cause?

(I've seen nothing like it on my Integra 3.4)

 

[MLaranjeiras]

Ouch... did that come up when you tried to run your speakers?

There's a thread on AVSForums about that error - sadly no conclusion about its root cause!

Did you find a root cause?

(I've seen nothing like it on my Integra 3.4)

Yes. It happened two tine: 1 - after join accidentally speakers connectors and 2 - when using a floorstanding pair of 4 ohms speakers. I was watching a Star Wars movie. After a scene of a deep bass blast (at not a very high volume), the receiver emmited a “crank” sound and this message right after.

 

[dlaloum]

Yes. It happened two tine: 1 - after join accidentally speakers connectors and 2 - when using a floorstanding pair of 4 ohms speakers. I was watching a Star Wars movie. After a scene of a deep bass blast (at not a very high volume), the receiver emmited a “crank” sound and this message right after.

I had audible issues with my 4ohm nominal speakers - which were resolved using an external power amp.

Sounds like the error arises when too much current is required from the AVR... and the sensors get triggered to protect the amp ie: it can Happen with a short circuit, like crossed speaker cables, or with a dip in the impedance at some point in the frequency range - it is not unusual for a 4ohm speaker to have a minimum impedance down at or below 2ohm at some point in the frequency range... and that can make the AVR "unhappy"!

My issue was resolved using any of the following amps/AVR's all of which can handle difficult speaker loads ... Onkyo SR876, Integra DTR70.4 (these two have similar amp sections to the current RZ70/LX805/DRX8.4), Crown XLS2500 and Quad 606.
Sound was identical using any of these 4.... But the Integra DRX3.4 on its own, did not sound as good as it should with my speakers when powering them on its own. (although I did not experience the error message!)

 

[Drunkinho]

LX305 user (I've switched to LX305 from Denon x1500h.). My few words on this avr and "issues". My configuration: 5.1
Front: Monitor Audio Monitor 100 - 8 Ohm
Center: Monitor Audio C150 - 8 Ohm
Surround: Monitor Audio 50 - 4 Ohm
Subwoofer: SVS SB-3000

AVR Impedance settings: 6 Ohms or above

Never had any issues with this AVR. Sounds really good (in stereo also - Direct mode). Dirac does great job here. Listening at different levels. Watched many movies at -10dB (that is enough for me and my neighbours :>>>) without any power issues or avr shuting down. The only thing I've noticed is some sort of hidden eco mode. AVR is limiting power used when listetning at lower levels but power level usage is coming back up when increasing volume level. But it is not an issue.
I guess the only thing which i don't like is crossover settings limited to all speakers.
Don't get me wrong this is not a perfect avr but it is also not that bad

 

[MbphotoX]

This was in pure direct mode.


I could have checked it, if I've had any clue there existed something like a protection mode. And yes, since I sent the unit back it is too late to check.



Do you mean the upmixer? I've tried it and it did not sound bad, but I prefer listening to music in pure direct mode. For movies I don't like any surround upmixers nor effects, just the pure Dolby or DTS.



Why is this strange? I had passive fronts for years, now I bought active fronts. Mainly because they were on sale with 50% off. Secondly usually the amps of active speakers are designed/tuned to fit the exact speakers, so you have to invest a good buck to get an external amplifier which is far better than the built in.

The active Speakers are now connected to the pre outs of my AVR and the old fronts are now the backs powered by the AVR's internal amps. If I won't connect the active speakers to the AVR i couldn't listen to any surround sound.

Alternatively I'm also looking for a surround processor/pre amplifier plus an external stereo amp for the backs, but as for now these solutions come at a much higher cost than a new AVR (e.g. the Denon X8500HA or the Marantz SR8015 (which has either HDMI problems and a AKM DAC or no HDMI problems and a TI DAC nowadays)).

This btw. is why I'm here at your fine forum.




I in fact did set the Pioneer's speaker settings to 4 ohms because my older Piegas, which are now the backs, are 4 ohm speakers. I wouldn't expect any difficulties here, if the AVR offers some extra settings for different impedances.
For the active fronts I don't expect this setting to have any effect.


P.S.: I didn't think I would have to clarify this, but just in case here we go: I didn't mean to bash neither the Pioneer LX505 nor the Onkyo RZ50 nor anyone who has one of these units and has fun with them. I just wrote about a strange behaviour which let me return the unit and which maybe has it's roots in the described power limiting. But also maybe not. Maybe I just had a faulty one, maybe I just was too stupid to get it running correctly, In fact this was only my 8th amplifier esp. my 5th AVR to own. So I'm still pretty new to the subject.

A few notes, even if it's too late now.

1. Pure Direct Mode for Stereo Music should sound exactly the same with every Amplifier, because the amplifier's signal processing gets circumvented. It simply sends the signal to your speakers (in your case, via the pre-amp stage and out through the pre-outs)
If this sounded hars and unpleasant, that's got nothing to do with the amp and everything to do with your speakers, their placement, and the room. I have heard quite a few Piegas (I'm Swiss) and the ribbon mid/tweeter do have a tendency to sound rather "harsh" and "too revealing" and all that.. I prefer them with tube amps (but alas, that's not an option with the active ones) (I see that yours is a "lower tier" speaker without the COAX ribbon setup, but I'd wager the signature Piega sound would be the same..)
The speaker has its own DSP, and Loudness (yikes!), did you do the automated room correction that they apparently have built-in?

Either way, if it sounds too harsh, you need to run Dirac Live (that's the main selling point of the Pioneer 505) OR, if you insist on pure direct, work out proper speaker placement and room treatment.

2. The others already told you about the 4 Ohm mode and why it's bad. But I don't think this was your issue here. I honestly believe that the problem was with Dirac Live.. did you even use it? Because going to 0dB on the volume.. That's 115dB from the LFE.. (gotta have a couple of subwoofers that can handle this, first...) and 105dB at the listening position 10-12 ft away from your speakers? that's insane levels for such a slim closed design.)


Too bad you didn't come here with your issues before returning it. I'm pretty sure you could've become a happy Pioneer owner.

 

[RoedeBaer]

1. Pure Direct Mode for Stereo Music should sound exactly the same with every Amplifier, because the amplifier's signal processing gets circumvented. It simply sends the signal to your speakers (in your case, via the pre-amp stage and out through the pre-outs)

At least the DACs are working in pure direct mode. As far as I know there are very little AVRs or Pre Processors that circumvent the DAC completely routing an analog signal all the way as analog through to the pre outs. At least not the LX505. Than I suppose you still have the OP-Amps in place or something similar in most cases.

If this sounded hars and unpleasant, that's got nothing to do with the amp and everything to do with your speakers, their placement, and the room. I have heard quite a few Piegas (I'm Swiss) and the ribbon mid/tweeter do have a tendency to sound rather "harsh" and "too revealing" and all that.. I prefer them with tube amps (but alas, that's not an option with the active ones) (I see that yours is a "lower tier" speaker without the COAX ribbon setup, but I'd wager the signature Piega sound would be the same..)

It may have been that the pairing of Pioneer and Piegas were not a perfect match. I didn't blame this on the AVR, but on the combination. In the Past I used to have mostly Piegas (these are my 3rd pair now) and combined them mostly with either Marantz, Harman & Kardon or Onkyo. But the Piegas are not harsh by nature, they just have a very high resolution in the heights (the Coaxials also in the mids). But they are not the best match for an analytical sounding amp. Oh, and I did run Dirac, of course.

That's why I'm thinking about an AV pre processor and adding maybe a tube pre amp like the Musical Paradise MP701 or something like that. But I haven't yet figured out, if this is a working combination: AV Pre Prosessor -> Tube Pre Amp -> active Speakers. Maybe I'll try the Marantz SR8015 as a pre processor. Or the Emotiva RMC-1. Or, or, or...

The others already told you about the 4 Ohm mode and why it's bad. But I don't think this was your issue here. I honestly believe that the problem was with Dirac Live.. did you even use it? Because going to 0dB on the volume.. That's 115dB from the LFE.. (gotta have a couple of subwoofers that can handle this, first...) and 105dB at the listening position 10-12 ft away from your speakers? that's insane levels for such a slim closed design.)

The problem was, the 0dB wasn't in fact much louder that the -12dB to -9dB. The AVR just didn't go notacible louder. Instead it sounded more and more compressed. My old Marantz SR6007 sounds much more loud at -15dB than the LX505 at -9dB. But meanwhile we know it most likely was the 4ohms speakers setting. Which my old Marantz doesn't have.

 

[MLaranjeiras]

Amirn also noted when reviewing the Pioneer VSX LX504 that the DAC inside worked up to 48/24 and not up to 192/24, as showed on the TV screen and on its front panel. The same happens when we run Audirvana analysis of, for example, a track at 192/24. In the end, it realizes that the max is only 48/24 (of course, many say this is irrelevant, because what counts in the end is the Master Recording Quality and I agree with this) .

 

[ban25]

Amirn also noted when reviewing the Pioneer VSX LX504 that the DAC inside worked up to 48/24 and not up to 192/24, as showed on the TV screen and on its front panel. The same happens when we run Audirvana analysis of, for example, a track at 192/24. In the end, it realizes that the max is only 48/24 (of course, many say this is irrelevant, because what counts in the end is the Master Recording Quality and I agree with this) .

Regardless, output will be resampled to 48 kHz on any AVR/AVP when room correction is engaged (with the exception of Trinnov IIRC).

 

[RoedeBaer]

Regardless, output will be resampled to 48 kHz on any AVR/AVP when room correction is engaged (with the exception of Trinnov IIRC).

Seriously?? So there's no HiRes Audio over 48kHz when using an AVR or an AV Processor with e.g. Dirac? What about pure/direct stereo? I mean, not that I could hear the difference, but anyways.

 

[popej]

Regardless, output will be resampled to 48 kHz on any AVR/AVP when room correction is engaged

I think Yamaha, Denon use 96kHz.