Pioneer VSX-LX505 AVR Review

[BJL]

I am using this AVR as a processor. In the review, Amir did not recommend it "unless you are using it as a processor and find a way to force the unit to go into power limiting." I don't understand the last phrase "and ... force the unit to go into power limiting." Can someone educate me? What is this, why is it important, and if so, is there a way to accomplish it? Thanks!

I did call the company support line, and was told that if I didn't put any load on the amplifiers (i.e. no speakers attached) they would not draw any significant current (which I believe, my unit barely gets warm) and would not influence the audio out of the pre-outs. Perhaps I was misinformed.

 

[amirm]

I am using this AVR as a processor. In the review, Amir did not recommend it "unless you are using it as a processor and find a way to force the unit to go into power limiting." I don't understand the last phrase "and ... force the unit to go into power limiting." Can someone educate me? What is this, why is it important, and if so, is there a way to accomplish it? Thanks!

In my testing of the DAC, I don't hook up the speaker load and just crank up the volume until I get the 2 volt nominal output. Sometime during that testing, the amp went into its pull back mode, allowing the DAC to perform without distortion. I don't know what it does if the amp has not gone into that mode. It may distort. My DAC testing is long (about an hour) allowing the amp to go into that mode. You as a user, won't be doing that. Hence my comment.

 

[dlaloum]

Who is the nebulous we?Those who haven't even done basic research like like actually connect an AVR to see if the claimed ballyhoo actually happens??? Till then,well it's as useless as Amir's recommendation.

As the owner of an Integra DRX3.4 - same family, same design, I can tell you that it really did not like powering my Gallo Reference 3.2 speakers.
The speakers are nominally 4 ohm, but the CDT tweeter drops down to around 1.6ohm - so it is a known "difficult load".

Without going loud, I tried the speakers on the 3.4 - they sounded rubbish. - there was no obvious clipping, however the midrange sounded congested, the soundstage collapsed and imaging was off / absent.

Using the pre-outs and feeding them from my external power amps completely resolved the problem.

The issue I have, is that my experience, and (possibly limited) knowledge, would indicate that the AVR was "complaining" about the need to supply more current than it is capable of, and the power amps were possibly getting unstable into the low (and reactive!) impedance.

Did it activate the protective nanny mode and power limit, hence exacerbating an already dire situation? - I have no way of knowing, as there appears to be no indication on the AVR as to whether or not it is in "nanny mode".

Having said all that - there are plenty of people reporting excellent results with "ordinary" speakers.

But I was expecting the power amps to struggle to feed my speakers - so I had my external amps all ready to go.

My old Integra DTR 70.4 AVR could handle these speakers - but it weighed 24.6kg vs the DRX 3.4's 10kg - and most of the weight difference was in the massive transformer and the capacitors forming the power supply.

I am hoping that when Pioneer/Onkyo/Integra get around to release the current (! )generation equivalent to my old DTR70.4, it will have similarly robust current capabilities and will be able to run my speakers without needing external assistance... looking forward hopefully to the RZ70, LX705/805, DRX7.4...

 

[dlaloum]

In my testing of the DAC, I don't hook up the speaker load and just crank up the volume until I get the 2 volt nominal output. Sometime during that testing, the amp went into its pull back mode, allowing the DAC to perform without distortion. I don't know what it does if the amp has not gone into that mode. It may distort. My DAC testing is long (about an hour) allowing the amp to go into that mode. You as a user, won't be doing that. Hence my comment.

My Crown amps require only 1.4V for rated output... but are working fine
My Quad amps require only 0.7V for rated ouput - so not indicative.

I don't know what would happen if I had power amps that required 2V or more for rated output, however you did test the RZ50, which has the same power amp boards as the LX505, and as I recall there was no issues there - and it managed to put out 3.4V?

 

[beaRA]

Were you able to confirm this behavior by observing the state of the web interface during power limiting in your test?

@amirm The deleted user was unnecessarily rude about it, but I did hope you would clarify this point. I'm trying to understand if you know the behavior of the web interface for a fact, or if you are interpreting its meaning based on its label. After all, the person designing the user interface could have given it a misnomer.

 

[peng]

My Crown amps require only 1.4V for rated output... but are working fine
My Quad amps require only 0.7V for rated ouput - so not indicative.

I don't know what would happen if I had power amps that required 2V or more for rated output, however you did test the RZ50, which has the same power amp boards as the LX505, and as I recall there was no issues there - and it managed to put out 3.4V?

Please be reminded that just because Amir tested it at 2 V, does not mean that it is the maximum the DUT can output. It has been mentioned many times in the past including by Amir himself, that he normally would test AVR preouts at up to 2 V (unbalanced), and AV prepro at 4 V (balanced), but he has measured both at higher voltage occasionally.

For example, he measured the AVR-X6700H and the AVR-X4700H (the first sample) at >4 V.

My point is, if he had tried, the LX505 might have been able to do 3.4 V as well.

 

[peng]

@amirm The deleted user was unnecessarily rude about it, but I did hope you would clarify this point. I'm trying to understand if you know the behavior of the web interface for a fact, or if you are interpreting its meaning based on its label. After all, the person designing the user interface could have given it a misnomer.

Anything is possible, but regardless, if the web interface does record such "pull back" events, the unit itself should have an indicator to alert the user too. I think that is the case with protection mode. It is highly unlikely (but again, anything is possible) that if the unit did not go into "standby", or "shutdown", it would be consider as "protect mode" because if you look at the older models that have SMs available, their "protect" mode would put the unit into standby automatically. In this case, when the unit "pull back", it continues to work as normal and the user may not notice it at all, and I think this is the point Amir has been making. It is, to some extent, analogous to power amp's (such as NAD's) soft clipping feature, it's sort of a self regulating thing when certain limits are exceeded, not a "fault".

 

[beaRA]

Anything is possible, but regardless, if the web interface does record such "pull back" events, the unit itself should have an indicator to alert the user too. I think that is the case with protection mode. It is highly unlikely (but again, anything is possible) that if the unit did not go into "standby", or "shutdown", it would be consider as "protect mode" because if you look at the older models that have SMs available, their "protect" mode would put the unit into standby automatically. In this case, when the unit "pull back", it continues to work as normal and the user may not notice it at all, and I think this is the point Amir has been making. It is, to some extent, analogous to power amp's (such as NAD's) soft clipping feature, it's sort of a self regulating thing when certain limits are exceeded, not a "fault".

I 100% agree and am NOT defending the manufacturer for failing to provide the user an obvious indication. My only goal is to identify if the web interface can be used as a tool for owners to evaluate the amplifier state with their speakers at their typical volumes.

 

[chashint]

I truly appreciate Amirm for taking the time to measure and publish the results of the various equipment made available to him, it is a valuable service to the community.
There is no reason for anyone to be triggered over this review, it is based on objective data with comments about that data as compared directly to the measured data of similar products.
In that regard this AVR does not distinguish itself as a class leader.
While I am in the crowd that wanted this AVR to be rated as best in class (or a close second), Amirm's review did not do that.
Objectively this AVR in the middle of the pack and in the 202x's that is actually a very good place to be.
Decisions about design/license/features/manufacturing costs have to be balanced to achieve retail price points.
I ordered the VSX-LX505 just before the review was published and took delivery of it January 9.
My other equipment is LG C2, RF83, RC62, RS42, Roku, PS5, XSX, Sony BD, Outlaw LFM1-EX.
The only thing I saw in the measurements for this AVR that gave me concern was the nanny circuit kicking in.
While the other parameters may not be class leaders, they are middle of the pack and are more than good enough to be inaudible.
Since having the VSX-LX505 I have vigorously tested the nanny circuit with music and movies, and I have not experienced hearing distortions or the nanny circuit suddenly lowering the volume.
Test conditions are generally more rigorous than real world operation, I do not think the nanny circuit is an issue.
The VSX-LX505 sounds good to me and my wife and the HDMI 2.1 functions of the AVR work correctly with the LG C2, PS5 and Xbox Series X.
I have not tried the Dirac yet, but having that baked in vs being a paid add on is a nice feature to have in the bag.
While I understand why Amirm puts this AVR in his not recommended list, that does not mean it is a bad product.
You buy AVR's for the features and this AVR is top tier in that regard, when it comes to the audio measurements being in the middle of the pack is okay.

 

[chashint]

In regard to the web interface and protection mode.
There is a clipboard icon in top right corner, it opens a status page.
This is all it has about amplifier protection.

 

[peng]

I truly appreciate Amirm for taking the time to measure and publish the results of the various equipment made available to him, it is a valuable service to the community.
There is no reason for anyone to be triggered over this review, it is based on objective data with comments about that data as compared directly to the measured data of similar products.
In that regard this AVR does not distinguish itself as a class leader.
While I am in the crowd that wanted this AVR to be rated as best in class (or a close second), Amirm's review did not do that.
Objectively this AVR in the middle of the pack and in the 202x's that is actually a very good place to be.
Decisions about design/license/features/manufacturing costs have to be balanced to achieve retail price points.
I ordered the VSX-LX505 just before the review was published and took delivery of it January 9.
My other equipment is LG C2, RF83, RC62, RS42, Roku, PS5, XSX, Sony BD, Outlaw LFM1-EX.
The only thing I saw in the measurements for this AVR that gave me concern was the nanny circuit kicking in.
While the other parameters may not be class leaders, they are middle of the pack and are more than good enough to be inaudible.
Since having the VSX-LX505 I have vigorously tested the nanny circuit with music and movies, and I have not experienced hearing distortions or the nanny circuit suddenly lowering the volume.
Test conditions are generally more rigorous than real world operation, I do not think the nanny circuit is an issue.
The VSX-LX505 sounds good to me and my wife and the HDMI 2.1 functions of the AVR work correctly with the LG C2, PS5 and Xbox Series X.
I have not tried the Dirac yet, but having that baked in vs being a paid add on is a nice feature to have in the bag.
While I understand why Amirm puts this AVR in his not recommended list, that does not mean it is a bad product.
You buy AVR's for the features and this AVR is top tier in that regard, when it comes to the audio measurements being in the middle of the pack is okay.

I think most will not be bothered by the nanny, because most don't push the amp to output more than a few watts for 35 seconds. I listen at moderate level, and for my usage, the amps will typically output less than 0.5 WPC, with peaks to 20-30 W that only last split seconds, so if I had that Pioneer I would not be bothered by the nanny too.

Amir reported his findings and that helps people make their informed decision, depending on their own usage.

 

[antcollinet]

The main problem here is not that there is a peak "long term" power limit.

It is that the power limit is not self resetting once the devices have had a chance to cool. You have to power the device off to reset it.

That is just incredibly poor design, and though in the market, I'd never buy any device that behaved that way - regardless of whether I was likely to run it sufficiently hard to trigger it.

 

[peng]

I won't buy one either, just trying to explain why some, or many of their owners may not even have triggered the "pull back" at all. If it is not triggered, then the long term limit won't matter to them either.

 

[amirm]

@amirm The deleted user was unnecessarily rude about it, but I did hope you would clarify this point. I'm trying to understand if you know the behavior of the web interface for a fact, or if you are interpreting its meaning based on its label. After all, the person designing the user interface could have given it a misnomer.

The deleted member asked to have his account deleted.

On the web interface, no I never used it. But since it only has one indication for protection, it can't possibly tell you about power pullback because they are two different things. To wit, the front panel has protection indicator and it did not go off either.

 

[peng]

If more people complain, Onkyo would likely do something to make it less objectionable via fw update.

 

[beaRA]

The deleted member asked to have his account deleted.

On the web interface, no I never used it. But since it only has one indication for protection, it can't possibly tell you about power pullback because they are two different things. To wit, the front panel has protection indicator and it did not go off either.

Thank you for clarifying!

 

[ivo.f.doma]

Amir, please give me one more explanation. You wrote that when measuring the SINAD preamplifier, you do not have the loads of the power amplifiers connected. At the same time, you wrote that you test it for about 1 hour and that the power amplifiers switched to protection mode even without a connected load, thanks to which you measured a better SINAD. And now the fundamental question. Can a power amp really go into protection mode without a load connected? And can even get one power amp channel that would go into protection mode trigger protection mode on all power amps? I ask because this device does not have a pre-amplifier mode and thus even with external LCR amplifiers it would actually destroy the performance of the other channels connected to the internal amplifiers in the AVR.

 

[BJL]

Amir, please give me one more explanation. You wrote that when measuring the SINAD preamplifier, you do not have the loads of the power amplifiers connected. At the same time, you wrote that you test it for about 1 hour and that the power amplifiers switched to protection mode even without a connected load, thanks to which you measured a better SINAD. And now the fundamental question. Can a power amp really go into protection mode without a load connected? And can even get one power amp channel that would go into protection mode trigger protection mode on all power amps? I ask because this device does not have a pre-amplifier mode and thus even with external LCR amplifiers it would actually destroy the performance of the other channels connected to the internal amplifiers in the AVR.

This is an excellent question. I called and asked Onkyo about using the pre-outs, what happens with the amplifiers (since there is no way to switch them off). I was told that if there is no load on the power amps (pre-outs used) they remain quiescent, they will not draw any significant current. Whether this is true or not, of course, I do not know, but that is what I was told.

 

[peng]

This is an excellent question. I called and asked Onkyo about using the pre-outs, what happens with the amplifiers (since there is no way to switch them off). I was told that if there is no load on the power amps (pre-outs used) they remain quiescent, they will not draw any significant current. Whether this is true or not, of course, I do not know, but that is what I was told.

Makes sense, Edit: I would say he told you the truth tried to tell you the truth, but as Tony pointed out, it isn't exactly "quiescent" if the power amps are still amplifying the input voltage. That's the same for the 2020/21 D+M avrs. The amps remained powered (quiescent state) when not used.

 

[antcollinet]

Makes sense, I would say he told you the truth. That's the same for the 2020/21 D+M avrs. The amps remained powered (quiescent state) when not used.

I'm not sure quiescet is the right word if it is not possible to switch them off. They will still amplify the input voltage - and output that voltage at the speaker terminals. However, if there is no load connected there will be no current out of the speaker terminanls - so in that respect they are correct to say there will be very little current used.

Whether or not the protection still kicks in at that point depens on how it works. If it simply triggers at a certain (average?) output voltage for a certain time, (ie it assumes a typical speaker load is connected, and therefore output power is proportional to V^2), then the protection will still kick in even with no speakers connected. I would assume this is what it is doing, since Amir found it goes into protection even with the speakers not connected.