Pioneer VSX-935 vs VSX-LX505, noticeable difference or just more expensive?

[Sounderista]

I've had a Pioneer VSX-935 for three years and I love it. So much that when I bought it, it was such a difference with my previous AVRs (an Onkyo and then a Yamaha) that I ordered another one to keep as a spare, because at $600 back then it was worth it just in case it would go bad. I had had a Pioneer which model I can't remember, but it was a 2011 model that stopped working in a few years because of overheating.

Now, one thing I love about the Pioneer is that it has a proper EQ, unlike most AVRs that I had or seen. It goes 12 dB up and down, unlike the Yamaha and the Onkyo, which go 12 dB down, but just 6 up, something I could never understand. I'm 55, so my hearing for high frequencies is not stellar, and I need that bump on the 16 Khz band, plus other adjustments to my liking. The Pioneer was a huge step in sound quality compared to the Onkyo and the Yamaha, both mid range AVRs of around $400.

But when it comes to music, nothing compares to my Sansui G-5700, with the SE-7 EQ and two Pioneer Andrew Jones tower speakers. And it would be fine if I was one of those purists that think music can only be enjoyed in stereo, but I'm not. In fact, at times stereo to me seems like almost mono. I have a 5.1.2 setup and I really enjoy music surrounding me, which is why I have several Blu-ray audio albums. But the quality of the Sansui is excellence, and the Pioneer, even now that I bought a set of Emotiva speakers, while it's very good, is still below the Sansui.

So my quest is to find an AVR that is good for both movies and music, but primarily for music. Because in being an AV nerd for 35 years I learned one thing. If it sounds good for music, it will sound good for movies, but the opposite is not always true. But especially rock music. If an AVR sounds great for jazz and classical, but then you put a rock album and it sounds mediocre, it doesn't work for me. But an AVR that sounds great for rock (at least if it's well recorded), will sound great for everything, other music genres and movies.

Now being the time of the year with the most sales and low prices, I thought about making the jump to perhaps the next level in AVRs, even if it doesn't get me to the Sansui sound (which is not possible anyway), at least something that gets me much closer, without spending $3,000 or more in a high end solution. I thought about the Emotiva receiver that is $1,000 now, but it has a lot of shortcomings that just won't work for me, so I figured why not look at the Pioneer Elite line, since I like Pioneer, and especially its remote control, that while IR, it's well designed, and if your puppy destroys it, replacement is rather inexpensive.

So let's forget for a bit about all the scientific measurements and all that, which is all good, but the thing I care most is the sound quality for music, if anyone here has had a chance to listen to it on a standard Pioneer receiver, even if it's not the VSX-935 but a similar AVR from the past few years, and also an Elite receiver from the past few years as well.

 

[EWL5]

Sorry to bust your bubble but Pioneer no longer makes new AVRs. You should demo Onkyo, Integra, Denon, Marantz, etc. and perhaps consider if Dirac room correction should be a priority.

 

[Sounderista]

Sorry to bust your bubble but Pioneer no longer makes new AVRs. You should demo Onkyo, Integra, Denon, Marantz, etc. and perhaps consider if Dirac room correction should be a priority.

I thought it was odd that Amazon doesn't sell it anymore, and neither does B&H or Adorama.

However, if Pioneer doesn't make any new AVRs, what's the situation with Onkyo, which is the same company? One model I was considering was the TX-RZ50, but all these YouTube reviewers, which go from lame to very scientific, not a single one speaks about the single feature that they should speak the most, a 10 band (or 9 if we eliminate the 32 Hz band in lieu of a subwoofer) that the user can customize and has 10 or 12 dB in each direction. All the extras like Dirac Live and so on are nice, but they don't mean squat without a proper custom EQ.

Every one of those automatic EQ solution I tested over the years yielded a horrible sound quality, in some cases flat, in some cases with the mid highs boosted, or with the sub bass boosted. In every case I disabled it and simply adjusted the EQ myself, the same for every channel, because whatever the experts might say, to me the best sound quality is to have every full range channel set to the same EQ.

Now, from a couple of YouTube videos, I can see that the Onkyo has a menu item called "Manual equalizer". But nobody spends a second talking about it! I just want to know if the Onkyo TX-RZ50 has a manual equalizer (preferably that can be applied to all channels), that goes up 10 or 12 dB and down 10 or 12 dB. In fact, I'm happy with the opposite of what my old Onkyo and Yamaha has, which for some reason I can't understand, have only 6 dB up but 12 down. I'd be fine with +12 and -6.

On the other hand, even if the Onkyo has a proper EQ and all the other nice features that I've seen, like the web interface, would it be a huge difference with my Pioneer VSX-935? Because to spend over a thousand bucks on some nice features is not something I'm willing to do. But if it gives me a sound quality that is great for rock music, that I would, because it would mean that all my classical, film music and rock music would sound great.

 

[DVDdoug]

So let's forget for a bit about all the scientific measurements and all that, which is all good, but the thing I care most is the sound quality for music,

Without tone controls/EQ/Room correction, or surround up-mixing or other "effects", there won't be any difference. So try to find something with "adequate EQ".

Differences can be measured but most modern audio electronics are better than human hearing unless you over-drive an amplifier into clipping/distortion. And occasionally you can get audible noise (hum, hiss, or whine in the background).

...This is not the case with speakers which are a LOT more imperfect.

Yamaha and the Onkyo, which go 12 dB down, but just 6 up, something I could never understand.

I won't pretend to know their thinking but... +6dB is 4 times the power and +12dB is 16 times the power! You can quickly run out of power and/or overdrive your speakers. It's more of an issue with bass which has a lot more energy than the highs.

And if done digitally, there is a digital limit of 0dBFS (which is the highest you can "count to" with a given number of bits) so you can hit the limits of the digital-to-analog converter and get digital clipping.

Some resources you may find educational:
Audiophoolery
What is a blind ABX test?.
Controlled Audio Blind Listening Tests (video).

 

[DVDdoug]

Every one of those automatic EQ solution I tested over the years yielded a horrible sound quality,

Presets like "Jazz" or "Rock" are a useless gimmick. The job of the playback system is to play the recording accurately no matter what it is.

Modern "room correction" is done by measuring with a calibrated measurement mic. It mostly works in the bass range with Room Modes. As above, cutting the bumps (where the direct and reflected waves combine in-phase) works better than than boosting the dips (where the direct and reflected soundwaves cancel each other). It takes "nearly infinite power" and big woofers/subwoofers to overcome the cancelations.

At the higher frequencies you can't fix all of the wiggles in frequency response because they change with slight changes in listening position, or even with slight movements of your head. Still, it can be worthwhile to get measurements before making final tweaks by-ear.

 

[Sounderista]

I won't pretend to know their thinking but... +6dB is 4 times the power and +12dB is 16 times the power! You can quickly run out of power and/or overdrive your speakers. It's more of an issue with bass which has a lot more energy than the highs.

Look, I don't care much about how much more power it is. All I care about is getting the best possible sound quality from them. This is my current Pioneer EQ curve after getting the Emotiva speakers:

Which is nothing compared to other receivers I had. The Yamaha was so bad that my curve was basically a long U that had the lowest and highest frequencies all the way up and the mid ones almost all the way down. Anything other than that it was unlistenable, if that's a word.

As for overdriving the speakers, I did that once with the Yamaha and the center and front speakers, the front ones because of a design flaw in a Blackmagic Cinema camera I had that caused a harsh sudden garbage digital noise on HDMI, and the center one watching "The Dark Knight". Those were Energy CB-5 and CC-5 speakers, which I learned were not very strong, especially because these speakers were not ruined from setting them to full range and playing hard bass music or movies. What blew in each of them were the tweeters. And I kept replacing the tweeters because I had a spare speaker, then I went from a 5.1.2 setup to just 5.1. But then the tweeter kept going bust with movies, so I bought a set of JBL Stage A130 and their center one (I think A125C or something), and they've been trouble free until last week when I got the Emotivas.

Regardless of that, I'm lucky to live in a house instead of an apartment complex, but at the same time, I don't go crazy turning up the volume even during the day.

This is in addition to +5 on the bass and treble, although depending on the content the treble can get excessive so I just set it to 0.

 

[Sounderista]

Presets like "Jazz" or "Rock" are a useless gimmick.

But I wasn't talking about such presets. I was talking about the automatic room correction software that comes with every receiver nowadays, and to me they all suck. At best, they're better than leaving the EQing as it comes with everything flat. But nothing like adjusting EQ to your liking.

The job of the playback system is to play the recording accurately no matter what it is.

Well, that's open to discussion. I'm not one of those purists that think that to listen to an album you need to have only a preamp and an amplifier, with no EQ or even tone controls of any kind. Same thing for AVRs. I don't care to play the recording accurately. I care to play it the way it sounds great to me. It's not like every recording ever made has the same sound quality with no emphasys on any frequency. I love '80s pop music, but that typical sound quality was garbage in most cases. Those boosted mid highs with the snare drum that sounds like a whip, it's just horrible. It's the kind of music that sounds the worst everywhere and has to be EQ'd to death to be tolerable. Not all of it of course, Earth, Wind & Fire's "Raise" is one of the exceptions to that decade's sound signature.

But regardless of decade, I try to achieve two things when it comes to EQ'ing music, 1) it has to sound as close as possible as if I was at the studio with the musicians. I haven't had that experience, but I've been in a rehearsing room with bands many times, so I have an idea, and 2) it has to sound great to me.

 

[Power Pop 23]

I've had a Pioneer VSX-935 for three years and I love it. So much that when I bought it, it was such a difference with my previous AVRs (an Onkyo and then a Yamaha) that I ordered another one to keep as a spare, because at $600 back then it was worth it just in case it would go bad. I had had a Pioneer which model I can't remember, but it was a 2011 model that stopped working in a few years because of overheating.

Now, one thing I love about the Pioneer is that it has a proper EQ, unlike most AVRs that I had or seen. It goes 12 dB up and down, unlike the Yamaha and the Onkyo, which go 12 dB down, but just 6 up, something I could never understand. I'm 55, so my hearing for high frequencies is not stellar, and I need that bump on the 16 Khz band, plus other adjustments to my liking. The Pioneer was a huge step in sound quality compared to the Onkyo and the Yamaha, both mid range AVRs of around $400.

But when it comes to music, nothing compares to my Sansui G-5700, with the SE-7 EQ and two Pioneer Andrew Jones tower speakers. And it would be fine if I was one of those purists that think music can only be enjoyed in stereo, but I'm not. In fact, at times stereo to me seems like almost mono. I have a 5.1.2 setup and I really enjoy music surrounding me, which is why I have several Blu-ray audio albums. But the quality of the Sansui is excellence, and the Pioneer, even now that I bought a set of Emotiva speakers, while it's very good, is still below the Sansui.

So my quest is to find an AVR that is good for both movies and music, but primarily for music. Because in being an AV nerd for 35 years I learned one thing. If it sounds good for music, it will sound good for movies, but the opposite is not always true. But especially rock music. If an AVR sounds great for jazz and classical, but then you put a rock album and it sounds mediocre, it doesn't work for me. But an AVR that sounds great for rock (at least if it's well recorded), will sound great for everything, other music genres and movies.

Now being the time of the year with the most sales and low prices, I thought about making the jump to perhaps the next level in AVRs, even if it doesn't get me to the Sansui sound (which is not possible anyway), at least something that gets me much closer, without spending $3,000 or more in a high end solution. I thought about the Emotiva receiver that is $1,000 now, but it has a lot of shortcomings that just won't work for me, so I figured why not look at the Pioneer Elite line, since I like Pioneer, and especially its remote control, that while IR, it's well designed, and if your puppy destroys it, replacement is rather inexpensive.

So let's forget for a bit about all the scientific measurements and all that, which is all good, but the thing I care most is the sound quality for music, if anyone here has had a chance to listen to it on a standard Pioneer receiver, even if it's not the VSX-935 but a similar AVR from the past few years, and also an Elite receiver from the past few years as well.

I second the recommendation to look for an AVR from Onkyo, Denon, or Marantz - they are still makiing new AVR's - that supports Dirac Live.

EDIT - I perceive greater clarity from playback when I enable Dirac Live in select gear, including a Pioneer '505' AVR.

The Onkyo TX-RZ30 comes with paid support for full-bandwith Dirac Live and supports optional paid DLBC. I am not aware of any support by the TX-RZ30 for Dirac ART.

A Denon '3800' AVR supports Dirac Live through DLBC to Dirac ART - all, at additional cost to the '3800'.

I believe Dirac is currently offering a Black Friday discount of 20 percent on select software.

Onkyo's parent company no longer licenses the Pioneer/Elite names from Pioneer Electronics for home audio. I believe their legal obligation for Pioneer-branded home audio expires when their respective warranties expire.

 

[voodooless]

+12 on one frequency is the same as -12 on all others.

Boosting frequencies you can’t hear anymore doesn’t make them more audible…

 

[EWL5]

But I wasn't talking about such presets. I was talking about the automatic room correction software that comes with every receiver nowadays, and to me they all suck. At best, they're better than leaving the EQing as it comes with everything flat. But nothing like adjusting EQ to your liking.


Well, that's open to discussion. I'm not one of those purists that think that to listen to an album you need to have only a preamp and an amplifier, with no EQ or even tone controls of any kind. Same thing for AVRs. I don't care to play the recording accurately. I care to play it the way it sounds great to me. It's not like every recording ever made has the same sound quality with no emphasys on any frequency. I love '80s pop music, but that typical sound quality was garbage in most cases. Those boosted mid highs with the snare drum that sounds like a whip, it's just horrible. It's the kind of music that sounds the worst everywhere and has to be EQ'd to death to be tolerable. Not all of it of course, Earth, Wind & Fire's "Raise" is one of the exceptions to that decade's sound signature.

But regardless of decade, I try to achieve two things when it comes to EQ'ing music, 1) it has to sound as close as possible as if I was at the studio with the musicians. I haven't had that experience, but I've been in a rehearsing room with bands many times, so I have an idea, and 2) it has to sound great to me.

Your knowledge of room correction is really outdated. Dirac has world-class room correction that easily trumps YPAO, AccuEQ, MCACC, and Audyssey to a certain extent.

If you won't even try the best RC currently available, you're better off looking for used legacy gear on discount!

 

[Chrispy]

You can look at Amir's review for the RZ50 https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../onkyo-tx-rz50-review-home-theater-avr.30842/

Graphic eq's aren't the best way to go generally, and when you say you're also using the bass/treble settings I wonder if both work simultaneously.....are you using MCACC? What is the screenshot of the eq from? It's based on measurements with the mic? In any case, more important generally to not boost so much and rather use collective cuts instead of boosting. How good is your hearing of 16khz?

Differences in avrs are largely in the dsp/eq features as well as capabilities of amp section, but are more similar among each other than not....let alone any difference between them for "music" vs "movies". How did you compare avrs? Very hard to do a good comparison without quite a bit of setup, more than likely just slight level differences than anything inherent in the electronics. Especially as you've changed speakers....the room and speakers have far more to do with it than the avr.

 

[ban25]

I thought it was odd that Amazon doesn't sell it anymore, and neither does B&H or Adorama.

However, if Pioneer doesn't make any new AVRs, what's the situation with Onkyo, which is the same company? One model I was considering was the TX-RZ50, but all these YouTube reviewers, which go from lame to very scientific, not a single one speaks about the single feature that they should speak the most, a 10 band (or 9 if we eliminate the 32 Hz band in lieu of a subwoofer) that the user can customize and has 10 or 12 dB in each direction. All the extras like Dirac Live and so on are nice, but they don't mean squat without a proper custom EQ.

Every one of those automatic EQ solution I tested over the years yielded a horrible sound quality, in some cases flat, in some cases with the mid highs boosted, or with the sub bass boosted. In every case I disabled it and simply adjusted the EQ myself, the same for every channel, because whatever the experts might say, to me the best sound quality is to have every full range channel set to the same EQ.

Now, from a couple of YouTube videos, I can see that the Onkyo has a menu item called "Manual equalizer". But nobody spends a second talking about it! I just want to know if the Onkyo TX-RZ50 has a manual equalizer (preferably that can be applied to all channels), that goes up 10 or 12 dB and down 10 or 12 dB. In fact, I'm happy with the opposite of what my old Onkyo and Yamaha has, which for some reason I can't understand, have only 6 dB up but 12 down. I'd be fine with +12 and -6.

On the other hand, even if the Onkyo has a proper EQ and all the other nice features that I've seen, like the web interface, would it be a huge difference with my Pioneer VSX-935? Because to spend over a thousand bucks on some nice features is not something I'm willing to do. But if it gives me a sound quality that is great for rock music, that I would, because it would mean that all my classical, film music and rock music would sound great.

Premium Audio Company, recently acquired by Gentex, is making new Onkyo and Integra products (note the recent Onkyo stereo separates...), but they have parted ways with Pioneer, which these days is now only a shell company that licenses out its brand. You can read here for more details:

Elite's Dynamic VSX-LX805 AV Receiver – A Full Review

Today, we’re dipping our toes in the waters of Elite’s top-end VSX-LX805 AV receiver (MSRP $2,999) with an in-depth review, dissecting its build quality, performance characteristics, specialties, and – yes – a few warts. Much like Integra-branded receivers released in 2023, the LX805 was...

www.avnirvana.com

The LX805, a sibling of the Onkyo RZ70 and Integra DRX-8.4, is still available for sale and often for quite a good discount. If you're interested in a TOTL 11-channel AVR with Dirac Live and Bass Control, it's quite a deal currently. Going forward, there likely will not be any further improvements, so you have to be happy with what it offers today.

Otherwise, you can look at the RZ70 or DRX-8.4, which are the same thing but with slightly less or slightly more features respectively. Whether or not there will be future improvements, like Dirac ART, is an unknown at this point, so as always, these units should be purchased for what they offer today instead of what they might hope to offer down the line.

 

[Sounderista]

Boosting frequencies you can’t hear anymore doesn’t make them more audible…

That would be true if the only frequencies I'm boosting are the ones I can't hear anymore, let's say 16 Khz. But you're not taking into account the Q factor, whatever it may be on my Pioneer receiver, which I don't really know, but let's suppose it's not a spike like you can do with most VST EQs or even some that come with receivers. My cheap Yamaha has the ability to adjust the Q factor, but it doesn't make it sound great.

But when I move up the 16 Khz band in my Pioneer, I can certainly hear the difference, even though in my own testing with VST EQs like Fabfilter Pro-Q 3 and the one that comes with Cubase Pro, I think I can't hear anything close to 16 Khz, when I do a spike and slowly move the frequency.

So it stands to reason that the Pioneer has a pretty wide Q factor, probably a high shelf that starts at 10 Khz, otherwise I wouldn't tell the difference, and I certainly can.

 

[Sounderista]

Graphic eq's aren't the best way to go generally, and when you say you're also using the bass/treble settings I wonder if both work simultaneously.....are you using MCACC?

Well, it's not like you can choose everything you want in an AVR unfortunately. And graphic EQs may not be the best, but in the case of this Pioneer, it provides a very nice sound quality. As for the bass and treble, they are in addition to the EQ. The bass is good to boost the bass between 100-200 Hz, and the treble is great to have, because it provides an easy access to control the highs with different content. If an album sounds a bit flat even with the EQ, you can give the highs and mid highs a little boost, usually not all the way to 10 dB, more like 5. But it's much easier to access than the EQ, which if you want to raise the 16 Khz band, you have to do it 7 times and it's a royal pain in the butt. The bass and treble are a couple of button presses in the remote, I don't even need to look at it.

I always use whatever the automatic system is called in the receivers I buy, which in this case is called MCACC like you said.

In any case, more important generally to not boost so much and rather use collective cuts instead of boosting.

I would agree except that we have that annoying company called Dolby, which on one hand has brought great advances to sound quality, and on the other hand, has absurd requirements for mixing for its many formats. The worst of all is any flavor of Dolby Digital, whether it's 5.1 or Atmos, which sets the dialog to a level so low that sometimes I have to set the volume in my receiver to 0 dB.

If I forget to lower it to at least -20, and I start playing a CD, I could blow out my speakers. Atmos in a TrueHD wrapper is really nice, although still low to my liking, but I don't have to set the volume in my receiver to 0 dB. A recent movie I bought on 4K Blu-ray and I was blown away by the quality of the TrueHD Atmos mix was "Conclave". First off, the dialog is very clear at -20 dB on my receiver, which is unheard of for an Atmos track, even a TrueHD one. And the placement of the sounds and music is just a pleasure to listen to. While most of the movie is dialog, the dialog is so well recorded and mixed that I could just listen to the movie and find it enjoyable.

How did you compare avrs? Very hard to do a good comparison without quite a bit of setup, more than likely just slight level differences than anything inherent in the electronics. Especially as you've changed speakers....the room and speakers have far more to do with it than the avr.

I don't live in NYC or any of those cities with several retailers that have decent show rooms. The only two I have are Best Buy (which I despise because of their return policy), and another place I can't remember which is too far away and they only have the gear for rich people. I make the comparison by reading reviews, watching videos on YouTube, and eventually I find the right one. If Amazon has it, I order it there because I know that if I don't like it, I can return it easily. That said, I don't buy 5 AVRs to see which one I like, because replacing my AVR is the most painful process of any of my gear. I need to move a lot of stuff around, connect the speaker cables for 7 speakers (the subwoofer is easy because it's RCA), and all the HDMI cables, which I don't know why they still make these receivers with only 6 HDMI inputs when I have like 10 different things I would like to connect and I can't, so some I have to connect to the TV set and get the sound via eARC, which when you stop playing anything on Netflix or whatever, it sends a digital fart to the receiver, and with streaming content having the aforementioned problem of the DD+ extremely low volume, those farts are very loud, and unlike human farts, never sound hilarious.

 

[Sounderista]

The LX805, a sibling of the Onkyo RZ70 and Integra DRX-8.4, is still available for sale and often for quite a good discount.

Even discounted, I would be paying more for a receiver that is probably already obsolete or will be soon, and if Pioneer is now a totally different company, who knows if they will even service their old units.

I'm more inclined towards the Onkyo RZ50, because I've watched many reviews and one thing that, if true, would be heaven for me, is the ability to adjust lots of frequencies to whatever I want, and also the Q factor. That would be for me the dream come true, not being constrained to anything, but having the perfect EQ curve like I can with Cubase and the Frequency 2 EQ or Fabfilter Pro-Q 3. I watched this video and I was in disbelief that you can have this level of EQ in a receiver:

Is this true? For those here that have the RZ50 or similar, can you simply take the Dirac Live test and then customize it to whatever you want, then send it to the receiver from the computer and have it applied?

 

[voodooless]

So it stands to reason that the Pioneer has a pretty wide Q factor, probably a high shelf that starts at 10 Khz, otherwise I wouldn't tell the difference, and I certainly can.

So you don’t need 12 dB of gain, you just need better control.

Is this true? For those here that have the RZ50 or similar, can you simply take the Dirac Live test and then customize it to whatever you want, then send it to the receiver from the computer and have it applied?

Yes, you can shape the response to anything you want.

 

[Sounderista]

Yes, you can shape the response to anything you want.

Awesome, then RZ50 it is. BTW, Amazon has it for $1,100 now, there's a coupon for $300 off until December 5th.

https://a.co/d/jcp6KIq

 

[Chrispy]

Well, it's not like you can choose everything you want in an AVR unfortunately. And graphic EQs may not be the best, but in the case of this Pioneer, it provides a very nice sound quality. As for the bass and treble, they are in addition to the EQ. The bass is good to boost the bass between 100-200 Hz, and the treble is great to have, because it provides an easy access to control the highs with different content. If an album sounds a bit flat even with the EQ, you can give the highs and mid highs a little boost, usually not all the way to 10 dB, more like 5. But it's much easier to access than the EQ, which if you want to raise the 16 Khz band, you have to do it 7 times and it's a royal pain in the butt. The bass and treble are a couple of button presses in the remote, I don't even need to look at it.

I always use whatever the automatic system is called in the receivers I buy, which in this case is called MCACC like you said.


I would agree except that we have that annoying company called Dolby, which on one hand has brought great advances to sound quality, and on the other hand, has absurd requirements for mixing for its many formats. The worst of all is any flavor of Dolby Digital, whether it's 5.1 or Atmos, which sets the dialog to a level so low that sometimes I have to set the volume in my receiver to 0 dB.

If I forget to lower it to at least -20, and I start playing a CD, I could blow out my speakers. Atmos in a TrueHD wrapper is really nice, although still low to my liking, but I don't have to set the volume in my receiver to 0 dB. A recent movie I bought on 4K Blu-ray and I was blown away by the quality of the TrueHD Atmos mix was "Conclave". First off, the dialog is very clear at -20 dB on my receiver, which is unheard of for an Atmos track, even a TrueHD one. And the placement of the sounds and music is just a pleasure to listen to. While most of the movie is dialog, the dialog is so well recorded and mixed that I could just listen to the movie and find it enjoyable.



I don't live in NYC or any of those cities with several retailers that have decent show rooms. The only two I have are Best Buy (which I despise because of their return policy), and another place I can't remember which is too far away and they only have the gear for rich people. I make the comparison by reading reviews, watching videos on YouTube, and eventually I find the right one. If Amazon has it, I order it there because I know that if I don't like it, I can return it easily. That said, I don't buy 5 AVRs to see which one I like, because replacing my AVR is the most painful process of any of my gear. I need to move a lot of stuff around, connect the speaker cables for 7 speakers (the subwoofer is easy because it's RCA), and all the HDMI cables, which I don't know why they still make these receivers with only 6 HDMI inputs when I have like 10 different things I would like to connect and I can't, so some I have to connect to the TV set and get the sound via eARC, which when you stop playing anything on Netflix or whatever, it sends a digital fart to the receiver, and with streaming content having the aforementioned problem of the DD+ extremely low volume, those farts are very loud, and unlike human farts, never sound hilarious.

Well, you can choose feature sets you want when buying a particular avr....some avrs do have parametric eq, tho. You're using MCACC eq then adding to it with both bass/treble controls and the graphic eq? That sounds like too much to me, and surprised all three work simultaneously but I didn't dig into your manual. In the end it is preference, tho.

Yes, movies and cds aren't recorded at same levels, so good idea to turn it down when changing sources. Some avrs can set a different volume level start for each different input, which can help. Altho some sources, like youtube, can have drastically varying volume between videos so sometimes that has me diving for the volume control when I forget how much I may have needed to raise the volume for a particular video. DD volume norm is what it is.

Agree, changing out an avr can be a pain, have done it several times for various reasons. I only use a few hdmi sources (optical disc player and a fire stick primarily) and all my avrs (I have several systems) have more hdmi than I have sources. I've not had the digital farts but I don't use ARC at all but when I did didn't have any. I live 45 miles from a best buy, much longer to the next choice. I generally do my shopping by internet. No need to "audition" an avr, just read the manual generally gets you a good picture of the feature set.

Good luck!

 

[Sounderista]

Well, you can choose feature sets you want when buying a particular avr....some avrs do have parametric eq, tho.

Generally that's what I do, combined with some experience with different brands. I bought a Denon in 2016 that turned out to be completely lame, but I bet the most expensive Denon will probably sound better. Then I bought a $1,000 Marantz, thinking it was going to be a huge change, and it was terrible. Besides that tiny circle that can only be read two feet away, the sound quality was basically a lot of bass and no treble. So after that I stayed away from both brands, and got an Onkyo something something 656, which was better than the two I mentioned, but lacking in highs, and I think it also had the treble in addition to the EQ. But for some reason, while Pioneer had receivers with EQs that could go 12 dB up, Onkyo, made by the same company, only had EQs that could go up to 6 dB and that was it.

You're using MCACC eq then adding to it with both bass/treble controls and the graphic eq? That sounds like too much to me, and surprised all three work simultaneously

I don't think that it works that way. When doing the MCACC process with the included mic, it basically yields two things, the distance to the speakers, and an EQ curve. So I think it stores that curve on the first slot and that's it. So the best you can have is the EQ curve + the bass and treble controls.

 

[Chrispy]

Generally that's what I do, combined with some experience with different brands. I bought a Denon in 2016 that turned out to be completely lame, but I bet the most expensive Denon will probably sound better. Then I bought a $1,000 Marantz, thinking it was going to be a huge change, and it was terrible. Besides that tiny circle that can only be read two feet away, the sound quality was basically a lot of bass and no treble. So after that I stayed away from both brands, and got an Onkyo something something 656, which was better than the two I mentioned, but lacking in highs, and I think it also had the treble in addition to the EQ. But for some reason, while Pioneer had receivers with EQs that could go 12 dB up, Onkyo, made by the same company, only had EQs that could go up to 6 dB and that was it.


I don't think that it works that way. When doing the MCACC process with the included mic, it basically yields two things, the distance to the speakers, and an EQ curve. So I think it stores that curve on the first slot and that's it. So the best you can have is the EQ curve + the bass and treble controls.

Not my experience that the avrs have such drastic audible differences except in the way you apply eq/dsp, what speakers/room they're in, etc.

MCACC also yields along with distance/level, an applied eq. Been years since I had a Pioneer (919) but it went up in smoke not long after warranty expired, but don't remember using all those together being an option. Just doubt all three operate simultaneously. Maybe two. Denon & Marantz generally just Audyssey or graphic eq, not simultaneously.