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Phonograph Stylus Wear Experiment

Philbo King

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An interesting topic...
I'm on my 2nd Shibata stylus since 1971, tracking at 1 gram.

Edit: typo. More like 1975.
 
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Icewater_7

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Now come the practical difficulties. I need to make sure @BMRR(VE) has recording capability without RIAA, and that if so the line input has wide enough bandwidth. I suppose it would not make sense for a system with 96kHz sampling rate to not have the full 48kHz bandwidth, less IRF.
A savvy member over at another forum/thread I’m in breadboarded a no-RIAA preamp with gain to run into a MOTU ADC. I can reach out to him if useful. Likely easy to modify gain or HF rolloff limit. https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/thre...ing-best-needledrop-practices.250442/page-213
 

JP

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I could lend one but it'd take few weeks for me to have time to put it in an enclosure, etc.
 

JP

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Hmm. I've a spare ADI-2 Pro, but that's not chump change to lend out. Cheaper options would be fine; would need to do a little research. I think I have a 2i2 laying around that'd do 192.
 

Philbo King

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If you decide to replace it, please consider sending it to me for imaging.
The last one I bought in '93 cost about $110. Maybe I got screwed...
These days I seldom play vinyl; it has maybe 75 hours on it. But if I do change it out I'll send it.
 
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BendBound

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I'd like to hear comments from @BendBound since the two of you have much more experience at recording.
I'm not sure I am the best to comment here since the recording I do, and I have done extensive recording, is to convert vinyl records to digital files. I typically record at 96/24 but I can record 192kHz/24bit. That is a large file, trust its only a short segment.

The solid state phono preamp I use is a Whest PS.40RDT SE. That preamp goes directly into a Tascam DA-3000 for recording.

The PS.40 preamp has these technical features, including hybrid RIAA filters that I don't believe I cannot bypass:

RIAA active filtering
The hybrid RIAA filters have been kept in the 40 Series design because not only is it used
throughout the full Whest Audio range, but in the 40 Series it is now trimmed to a far tighter
tolerance for both curve and channel matching. Channel matching now is to within 0.12dB
and RIAA curve accuracy to 0.15dB. Both these figures are across a bandwidth with spans
from 9Hz and 62KHz. Any non-Whest Audio phono stage would be at least 18dB-30dB
down at these extremes, but having experience in pro-audio, vinyl cutting and mastering
means we at Whest Audio know what it takes to get the very best from playing back the vinyl
format at all price levels.

Gain and load selection
This section is accessed under the chassis like all Whest Audio phono stages. Maximum
gain is 72dB and with the internals’ ultra low-noise levels it means you will never be stuck
for gain ever again! All units are setup for standard low output moving coil 65dB/100 ohms
but if you do want to experiment it just takes 30secs to change over.
MM gain is at a very healthy and modern 43dB not the older 1970s standard 39dB like our
competitors. This with a total capacitance value of 91pf gives a beautifully flat response
from your high performance MM cartridge and an unmatched sublime audio output that can
only be achieved from a Whest Audio phono stage.

Signal inputs and outputs
These are on ‘audiophile grade’ RCA and XLR connectors identical to that used in the
TITAN Pro. Because Whest Audio phono stages are used in archiving both professionally
and domestically we have included a second set of RCA outputs to allow the user to send the
output to their computer for transfer while ‘monitoring’ the output through their main audio
system. The 40 Series noise levels are so low that using 24bit or 32bit conversion is possible
without the fear of unwanted signals getting to the soundcard. With the PS.40RDT and
PS.40RDT Special Edition we now have a new standard – no other company in the world
designs with this much attention to detail for the end-user.

I can ask the designer if it is possible to record a flat file. In May, Whest introduced the PS60 Pro. When this experiment is completed, my PS.40 will be upgraded to the PS60 Pro. As far has what @BMRR is capable of, we need to learn more. But I know he can record up to 96/24, no better.
 

MRC01

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The phono amp that I used was a DACT CT-100. It comes as a card. You provide a box and connectors, wire it up (SE or balanced) and provide a power supply. It has DIP switches to set gain, loading, and EQ.

It is an ultra clean reference quality phono amp. Very low noise & distortion. Seems ideal for this kind of testing.
 

morillon

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it's amazing...
first of all I explored the imd solutions available on our test discs (I pointed out at least two that may be interesting above)... see which ones could be the most relevant for this observation..

a rather easy approach because of their principle ... very thoughtful during the 70s and 80s ...
and so easily to achieve with in particular a software like multitones (thank you mr pkane) almost made for our uses
;-)
(I don't have access to my equipment at the moment.. maybe others can investigate the matter a little.
go around the tests that are offered.. see some had been designed to precisely observe the wear and not just tracking....
;-) )
 
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BendBound

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Update since its been over three weeks since our last record.

We have now sourced several NOS CBS test records that we intend to use for this experiment. Furthermore, @Ray Parkhurst has refined further our experiment into discrete and well-defined steps. That is the good news. We have also added a second new Audio Technica VM95E cartridge for use as a benchmark to the one to be used to critical wear. We have engaged with folks here on ways to better understand the sonic impact of diamond stylus wear and record wear as far as capturing dubs at sufficient recording rates (kHz/bit rate) to detect those attendant with physical stylus wear. We are experimenting here, on this part, and hope to perfect our experiment, if not in this run, in the next when we plan to wear a Shibata stylus to critical wear.

However, life has intervened, and at the moment we have been delayed from turning to the right so to speak. Unexpected family issues for our team member @BMRR (on Vinyl Engine) running the turntable has delayed our actual start up. Further, in setting up his turntable, he has discovered an issue that we hope is just belt related. No matter, another turntable is available (an Onkyo) in the event the issue is not minor. Nonetheless, we are close to getting completely underway and when we do, further updates will be provided of our results.
 

morillon

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a funny methode on the 70s
made in France
;-)
 

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USER

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As was briefly discussed over at Vinyl Engine here is a Shure ML140HE with some wear on it. The exact amount of wear--and how much life is left--is impossible to say at this resolution, but the important thing is that we can certainly say that it is present. Luckily I bought this stylus for measurement purposes for only $30.

Shure ML140HE - Denon DP-35F - CA¹ - 1.png
S20230626_0002.jpg



It may be the case that the possible uneven wear from poor azimuth adjustment may be the cause of the 2nd harmonic of the right channel to be a bit higher than the left channel. That being said, the measurement looks pretty good (actually really good) in the end, with the only below average part being distortion above 10kHz.

While not exactly apples to apples, here is a ML120HE in good condition:
Shure ML120HE - Denon DP-35F - CA¹ - 1.png

It is expected that the ML140HE is the "better" cartridge. Its distortion above 10k now certainly stands out and we think that this is where the wear is "showing up." This fits with the general industry consensus about the matter.

But I had previously said that I was noticing wear between 3-10kHz. But that was with regular elliptical styli. Here we have a hyper-elliptical. So the diamond shape may dictate where to "look" and things may be more complicated that what general knowledge says. This makes sense but it is good to see and good to look out for.
 
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Icewater_7

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As was briefly discussed over at Vinyl Engine here is a Shure ML140HE with some wear on it. The exact amount of wear--and how much life is left--is impossible to say at this resolution, but the important thing is that we can certainly say that it is present. Luckily I bought this stylus for measurement purposes for only $30.

View attachment 295383View attachment 295387


It may be the case that the possible uneven wear from poor azimuth adjustment may be the cause of the 2nd harmonic of the right channel to be a bit higher than the left channel. That being said, the measurement looks pretty good (actually really good) in the end, with the only below average part being distortion above 10kHz.

While not exactly apples to apples, here is a ML120HE in good condition:
View attachment 295385
It is expected that the ML140HE is the "better" cartridge. Its distortion above 10k now certainly stands out and we think that this is where the wear is "showing up." This fits with the general industry consensus about the matter.

But I had previously said that I was noticing wear between 3-10kHz. But that was with regular elliptical styli. Here we have a hyper-elliptical. So the diamond shape may dictate where to "look" and things may be more complicated that what general knowledge says. This makes sense but it is good to see and good to look out for.
Does “Flat MM” suggest that no RIAA comp was applied at digital recording but digitally compensated for during the DSP measurement?
 

USER

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Does “Flat MM” suggest that no RIAA comp was applied at digital recording but digitally compensated for during the DSP measurement?
Yes, sort of. There is no RIAA compensation but that works well here because you aren't supposed to apply it to properly use the test record in order to have accurate results (remove the phono stage). I do apply perfect, digital RIAA when digitizing records. Best of both worlds. For casual listening I use phono stages.

I use this, Wayne Kirkwood Flat MM Phono Preamplifier. It is wonderful. Simply adds gain and nothing else.
 

krabapple

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To provide additional data on the sonic impact of record wear, two records will be recorded by @Tetonbound before the experiment using a Tascam DA-3000 pro-level recorder at 96kHz and 24 bit. These recordings will be done on near mint records to establish a baseline of sonic quality of selected records.

This should be done several times for each, to get a range for inherent playback variance.
 

Icewater_7

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Yes, sort of. There is no RIAA compensation but that works well here because you aren't supposed to apply it to properly use the test record in order to have accurate results (remove the phono stage). I do apply perfect, digital RIAA when digitizing records. Best of both worlds. For casual listening I use phono stages.

I use this, Wayne Kirkwood Flat MM Phono Preamplifier. It is wonderful. Simply adds gain and nothing else.
What plugin do you use for fully accurate digital RIAA? I experimented beck in the 90’s with the Waves RIAA EQ plugin preset but was not happy with the results. Just went with a fully balanced RIAA solid state pre made by Audio Research (SP2, i think).
 

USER

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This should be done several times for each, to get a range for inherent playback variance.
No real need for several reasons. First, there are plenty of examples on the measurement script thread and its not so bad once you establish how a record performs. And most importantly, there is no real benefit because of how the experiment is set up. As they will be removing the cartridge to image it, the concern should be on making sure it is comparably set-up after each step. That's the concern that was mentioned here and why the experiment is only a first step. To properly measure it over the long run, you will need to minimize variables, which also means leaving the cartridge alone. Still, the first run should show interesting results.
 
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