• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Phonograph Stylus Wear Experiment

JP

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 4, 2018
Messages
2,292
Likes
2,469
Location
Brookfield, CT
It does seem like the parameters of the experiment and exactly what is being tested needs more work, and/or maybe a small test run. These types of experiments appear to be not complicated but they usually always are when you get down to the necessary detail.
 

ray_parkhurst

Member
Joined
May 18, 2023
Messages
95
Likes
98
There is always something "more" or "different" that we can do, and some of the suggestions from here and on other forums have been incorporated, but no experiment is perfect. At this point I think the experiment is pretty well discussed and debated, and ready for prime time. That said, we'll still listen to inputs, but unless some epiphany occurs, the experiment will proceed as described. It may be that some change may be warranted due to interim results, or that new inputs could be incorporated into future experiments.
 

JP

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 4, 2018
Messages
2,292
Likes
2,469
Location
Brookfield, CT
I get that, but I've not seen enough to indicate a reasonably controlled experiment. My last, unanswered, question as example. Maybe it is defined and just not shared. Hope so.
 

ray_parkhurst

Member
Joined
May 18, 2023
Messages
95
Likes
98
I absolutely invite you to define what you would consider the optimum experiment. Let's get it all on the table and debate it. Perhaps we've overlooked something or need to make some changes to improve.
 

ray_parkhurst

Member
Joined
May 18, 2023
Messages
95
Likes
98
Can I assume the cartridge used for those laybacks will not be used in the interim?
I'm dubious that light use would make any difference, but your point is well taken. I think we'll just need to live with the small amount of wear that is put on the cartridge by the hours of play in the interim between captures. Perhaps @BendBound could estimate the number of hours of play that is planned, or that actually occurs, between captures.
 

JP

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 4, 2018
Messages
2,292
Likes
2,469
Location
Brookfield, CT
It’s those kinds of uncontrolled variables that make this non-conclusive. Essentially it’ll be down to anecdotes.
 

JP

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 4, 2018
Messages
2,292
Likes
2,469
Location
Brookfield, CT
I absolutely invite you to define what you would consider the optimum experiment. Let's get it all on the table and debate it. Perhaps we've overlooked something or need to make some changes to improve.

I don’t think that’s the deflection it sounds like. It’s not my experiment. Feedback was requested and it’s being given. If it’s not actually wanted then, well, don’t use it.
 
OP
B

BendBound

Member
Joined
May 18, 2023
Messages
34
Likes
37
I'm dubious that light use would make any difference, but your point is well taken. I think we'll just need to live with the small amount of wear that is put on the cartridge by the hours of play in the interim between captures. Perhaps @BendBound could estimate the number of hours of play that is planned, or that actually occurs, between captures.
I have another MC cartridge, new actually, that I will install. The Ortofon Cadenza Black has at most two additional hours on it from when I did the 96/24 dubs.

The new MC cartridge has a Replicant 100 stylus shape. Ray has already taken a T(0) image of that stylus tip as this cartridge will be subject to periodic imaging showing its evolution to critical wear. Likely this allied experiment will take four years to unfold.

In this case, I will be making dubs, perhaps at 192kHz, for the purpose of capturing evolution in cartridge performance over time. I'm looking for guidance here, details, specifics.

Like Ray I invite someone, anyone to specifically layout a protocol for how to better conduct this experiment. As Ray said, we are still open but moving forward to wearing out this elliptical stylus tip. That noted, we are discussing following up this experiment by next wearing out a Shibata tip. So, please detail, not snippets, detail how to conduct such a test so that its not viewed by some as simply anecdotal. That critique can be levied against any person's experience: its just anecdotal, on my rig, the stylus tips works without any degradation for 5,000 or is it 20,000 hours. We are working to gain penetrating insights into stylus wear that moves beyond hearsay. We will show it in progress.

@JP, as far as "uncontrolled variables that make this non-conclusive" I for one would appreciate it if you would elaborate. Maybe we have missed something critical, we want to know what that variable is, what could we be doing better? What you have noted is not coming across to me as a specific crucial must do recommendation. I need specifics so that I can understand. We've already mentioned why we are not going to use a linear turntable. We selected a turntable and cartridge and records that meet the 80/20 rules on general use. Our record cleaning is beyond 80/20, in my community where I live, no one cleans their records using an ultrasonic machine and a vacuum machine. We made this choice to specifically remove as a uncontrolled variable the prospect of playing dirty records.

On the capturing of dubs to look at THD at whatever selected frequencies with harmonics, I have read all that has been written in this thread and I still do not have a good understanding of what has been suggested. If someone is willing to write out a procedure from start to finish, I'd for one would be grateful.

I will add, that if one believes carte blanche some cartridge manufacturers claims of up to many thousands of hours of stylus use to critical wear please show me their published procedures. Maybe in my endeavor to learn about this facet of audio I have missed it, because I have found literally nothing. Our team has been as transparent has possible. We have left nothing to assumptions or guess work by the community. We may not have designed a 'perfect' experiment, but to be honest, given how most of my buddies play and clean either records or stylus or even align their kit, the experiment we are doing moves beyond simply anecdote.
 
Last edited:

JP

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 4, 2018
Messages
2,292
Likes
2,469
Location
Brookfield, CT
Like Ray I invite someone, anyone to specifically layout a protocol for how to better conduct this experiment. As Ray said, we are still open but moving forward for wearing out this elliptical stylus tip.

Same answer - it's your work. And if it's already moving forward it'll be too late to course-correct.

I will add, that if one believes the cartridge manufacturers claims of up to many thousands of hours of stylus use to critical wear please show me their published procedures. Maybe in my endeavor to learn about this facet of audio I have missed it, because I have found literally nothing. Our team has been as transparent has possible. We have left nothing to assumptions or guess work by the community. We may not have designed a 'perfect' experiment, but to be honest, given how most of my buddies play and clean either records or stylus or even align their kit, what we are doing moves beyond simply anecdote.

Anecdote was a generalization, so I wouldn't view it as completely unfair - I'm sure there will be some aspects of the experiment where there's enough integrity in the process such that not too much doubt can be applied to the result. It's the more interesting (to me) aspects of what happens to performance and the audible result thereof that I think is going to be very problematic at this stage. I didn't detect that y'all were really interested in that aspect anyway.

I've never believed the reports of thousands of hours with no performance issues. I've heard enough setups from forum personalities where you'd think perfection was the only thing that existed to the reality of something being obviously wrong from the first note. I take it all with a giant grain of salt. IIRC I read a few weeks ago a post from someone who fancies themselves a bit of an aficionado that they were listening to styli that were bottoming out and had no idea. It's the Wild West.
 
OP
B

BendBound

Member
Joined
May 18, 2023
Messages
34
Likes
37
It's the more interesting (to me) aspects of what happens to performance and the audible result thereof that I think is going to be very problematic at this stage. I didn't detect that y'all were really interested in that aspect anyway.
If in the captured quote you are talking about the THD measurement side of things, we are most interested. We want to couple visual wear with audible wear. Only we don't know how to measure this second aspect of wear. We have specially come to this forum, publishing our intent focused on visual wear, hoping to secure specific guidance on what we need to do. In fact, some of the measurements may need to be conducted by folks such as yourself or @USER or others who are willing and able. We have no experience with Python. A friend of mine does, but his experience is not recent. He is guiding me to some degree. To be sure, we have ordered several sealed copies of the CBS test record because of feedback from folks such as yourself.

We still need a specific outline for a procedure. We've invited folks here, you in particular, to establish that in detail. We are limited by the equipment we possess and the West Coast to East Coast logistics from our team. I have been clear about my equipment. But the kind of protocol you would sanction as ideal is not something we are familiar with. That is why we are here and why we ask for details.

@JP wrote: Same answer - it's your work. And if it's already moving forward it'll be too late to course-correct.

We have not yet begun the playing of records. We are in set up mode but we are very close to beginning (we are delayed by the non-delivery of a CBS test record). The time to help us with a detailed procedure is precisely now.
 
Last edited:

morillon

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 19, 2022
Messages
1,376
Likes
276
for example with rew or multitones ,for thd..you can capture in 192k/24 an 10k or 15khz or 20khz , 3.54cm/s from an at-6605...
fast and simple...
 
OP
B

BendBound

Member
Joined
May 18, 2023
Messages
34
Likes
37
for example with rew or multitones ,for thd..you can capture in 192k/24 an 10k or 15khz or 20khz , 3.54cm/s from an at-6605...
fast and simple...
Okay, treat me as someone who needs to be spoon feed. What do I do?

Record the test record (?) assuming it has those frequency bands as tracks at 192kHz/24bit. I don't understand "3.54cm/s from an at-6605". Sorry, @morillon I need a simple explanation. Please recognize, this type of sampling is completely new to me. I do considerable vinyl to CD conversions, but I never record at the suggested sampling frequency even if the Tascam can do it. On the other end of this experiment, the maximum sampling is 96/24. We do have limitations.

I could record this, but it means shipping the test record (?) and cartridge to me. That is why a detailed protocol is preferred.
 

JP

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 4, 2018
Messages
2,292
Likes
2,469
Location
Brookfield, CT
If in the captured quote you are talking about the THD measurement side of things, we are most interested. We want to couple visual wear with audible wear. Only we don't know how to measure this second aspect of wear. We have specially come to this forum, publishing our intent focused on visual wear, hoping to secure specific guidance on what we need to do. In fact, some of the measurements may need to be conducted by folks such as yourself or @USER or others who are willing and able. We have no experience with Python. A friend of mine does, but his experience is not recent. He is guiding me to some degree. To be sure, we have ordered several sealed copies of the CBS test record because of feedback from folks such as yourself.

We still need a specific outline for a procedure. We've invited folks here, you in particular, to establish that in detail. We are limited by the equipment we possess and the West Coast to East Coast logistics from our team. I have been clear about my equipment. But the kind of protocol you would sanction as ideal is not something we are familiar with. That is why we are here and why we ask for details.

@JP wrote: Same answer - it's your work. And if it's already moving forward it'll be too late to course-correct.

We have not yet begun the playing of records. We are in set up mode but we are very close to beginning (we are delayed by the non-delivery of a CBS test record). The time to help us with a detailed procedure is precisely now.

Is that the only test record on the agenda? No IMD, tracking tests, etc? If the STR is from the usually eBay seller, you're going to want to flatten it first.
 
OP
B

BendBound

Member
Joined
May 18, 2023
Messages
34
Likes
37
Is that the only test record on the agenda? No IMD, tracking tests, etc? If the STR is from the usually eBay seller, you're going to want to flatten it first.
This is the only test record on the agenda, yes. I have a Vinyl Flat if needed and I have access to the high quality Japanese flattener (Furutech DF-2).

But you are hinting at yet not providing a detailed procedure, one that contains the test records required. What to record when, at what frequency and bit rate, etc. That is what we would like to see. @JP, at the end of the day, we might not be able to meet all of the requirements, but unless we know the specifics, we cannot work towards getting all that is needed for this.

My recording and processing routine for vinyl to CD conversions.
 
Last edited:

USER

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 30, 2019
Messages
940
Likes
1,555
If you have the patience and are willing to wait a few days at certain points (ie pause your experiment), I can run your CBS test record recordings through the script. Other than that, I really don't understand the confusion. I have already gone through the steps you need to take with you--and recommended other measurements and test records--and it's a little frustrating reading your exasperated posts that can be read as implying you are not being helped or that people here haven't cared.

If you are only using the CBS test record, simply take an FR measurement of the cartridge at each step you decide upon and send them to me. I have already told you to get additional CBS test records, compare them, and to use a control cartridge to help differentiate between test record and stylus wear. Whether you choose to follow through with that is up to you. For us here at ASR, those results, if done properly, will matter most as anecdotes concerning listening tests are just that, anecdotes. I am going to assume most here are older gentlemen. No offense, but why should anyone trust your/our ears? Anecdotes are not evidence. Are you going to do professional A/B listening tests? As mentioned it may be likely that recordings near the inner groove may be the only useful ones. We've seen what a wide range of cartridge measurements look like. We know how bad distortion can get. We know frequency response is pretty much it for determining sound quality. JP has posted many professionally recorded AB tests and I have shown you the measurements of worn cartridges. It is brutally difficult to make any sort of determination through listening tests. And I'm glad you are taking measurements seriously because of this. But as that data will matter most, privilege it and get it right (heed JP's warnings).

Try sending me a recording of the test track so I can show you what it looks like and we can see if things look OK.
 
Last edited:

ray_parkhurst

Member
Joined
May 18, 2023
Messages
95
Likes
98
I don’t think that’s the deflection it sounds like. It’s not my experiment. Feedback was requested and it’s being given. If it’s not actually wanted then, well, don’t use it.
My request is not deflection. I really want to know what is wrong with the experiment and how you'd improve it, as @BendBound has also requested. Either we could change the procedure for this experiment, or improve the next one. How about a step by step with details?
 

ray_parkhurst

Member
Joined
May 18, 2023
Messages
95
Likes
98
If you have the patience and are willing to wait a few days at certain points (ie pause your experiment), I can run your CBS test record recordings through the script. Other than that, I really don't understand the confusion. I have already gone through the steps you need to take with you--and recommended other measurements and test records--and it's a little frustrating reading your exasperated posts that can be read as implying you are not being helped or that people here haven't cared.

If you are only using the CBS test record, simply take an FR measurement of the cartridge at each step you decide upon and send them to me. I have already told you to get additional CBS test records, compare them, and to use a control cartridge to help differentiate between test record and stylus wear. Whether you choose to follow through with that is up to you. For us here at ASR, those results, if done properly, will matter most as anecdotes concerning listening tests are just that, anecdotes. I am going to assume most here are older gentlemen. No offense, but why should anyone trust your/our ears? Anecdotes are not evidence. Are you going to do professional A/B listening tests? As mentioned it may be likely that recordings near the inner groove may be the only useful ones. We've seen what a wide range of cartridge measurements look like. We know how bad distortion can get. We know frequency response is pretty much it for determining sound quality. JP has posted many professionally recorded AB tests and I have shown you the measurements of worn cartridges. It is brutally difficult to make any sort of determination through listening tests. And I'm glad you are taking measurements seriously because of this. But as that data will matter most, privilege it and get it right (heed JP's warnings).

Try sending me a recording of the test track so I can show you what it looks like and we can see if things look OK.
Since the analysis will be done offline, and is not in critical path, there is no rush. I'm not expecting to do any of the analysis as I'm hoping folks such as yourself and @JP can help with it., but I'll bet there will be quite a bit of controversy over the different ways of doing it. We've already seen this in the thread!

We are not planning to do any listening tests. That was a suggestion though from one of the ASR members. If someone wants to A/B the recordings, go for it.
 

JP

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 4, 2018
Messages
2,292
Likes
2,469
Location
Brookfield, CT
This is the only test record on the agenda, yes. I have a Vinyl Flat if needed and I have access to the high quality Japanese flattener (Furutech DF-2).

But you are hinting at yet not providing a detailed procedure, one that contains the test records required. What to record when, at what frequency and bit rate, etc. That is what we would like to see. @JP, at the end of the day, we might not be able to meet all of the requirements, but unless we know the specifics, we cannot work towards getting all that is needed for this.

My recording and processing routine for vinyl to CD conversions.


STR-100 has "wear" tracks but I've never used them. If I get time I'll look, but it's doubtful I'd be able to do so before the fall. I'd consider TTR-103, at least the HF test track. I think I mentioned before, though it may have been in private, that I'd consider a "suite" of test records to layback at intervals so that the data is captured. I'd also consider the layback process. As example, I prefer to perform each capture at least three times, more if the measurement warrants it. Vinyl is so highly variable.

FR sweeps are good and you can see distortion well enough from them. I could look at adding the ability to the script to plot beyond 3H, but would be in the fall or later. I'd grab the spots too, and possibly the "wear" tracks. Or, just layback and whole record 3-5 times at each interval.

The other significant factor in this is where on the record the test tracks are. Ideally I'd want to see sweeps from the outer and inner grooves. TRS-1005 and 1007 have inner and outer sweep tracks, but those aren't easy to come by. You could likely find CA-TRS-1007, but the pitch on that one is too tight so the last sweep ends in the middle of the record. Boggles the mind how they missed the point of where the tracks were supposed to be and why.

And of course you need a way to verify that any differences are not due to record damage. Likely a cartridge used for no other purpose but to verify the test records at each interval. Changing cart introduces variables, so you've to consider the value of the various data and what you're wanting to show and to whom. For example, I wouldn't mind cart changes if the arm settings are highly repeatable and there's a good process in place. For others it's going to be an excuse to undermine the test.

You also need to decide if there are any factors you'd change mid-experiment. If there's uneven wear are you going to adjust anti-skate, or let it ride?

No doubt there's more to consider that I'm not thinking of.
 

JP

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 4, 2018
Messages
2,292
Likes
2,469
Location
Brookfield, CT
My request is not deflection. I really want to know what is wrong with the experiment and how you'd improve it, as @BendBound has also requested. Either we could change the procedure for this experiment, or improve the next one. How about a step by step with details?

You're asking me to design your experiment for you, which would take several days of effort just to outline and several more to verify. It's not like I know exactly what you need to do and can just type it up in a few minutes.
 
Top Bottom