• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Phono preamp w/ vintage amplifier

mcdunha11

Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2024
Messages
6
Likes
2
Hello and happy holidays!! Brand new here. I have been diving into the rabbit hole of vintage gear for about 5-6 years. Ever searching for the best sound. My gear consists of a Thorens 150 mkii turntable, Sansui 4000 receiver and a Kenwood ka 5500 integrated amp pushing a stacked pair of large advent speakers, one OLA and one NLA.
I have been thinking of seeing if getting a separate phono preamp for my system would improve the sound quality of my vinyl collection? And, if so, what preamp might sound best with my system?
Thanks very much in advance for assistance I can get!
 
Welcome to the forum.

Ever searching for the best sound.
If that is genuinely your objective, you should be moving towards a digital setup.

Vinyl is great - but it is for the experience rather than the sound quality. (You are on a forum that bases its advice on science and engineering - its in the name. Vinyl is objectively inferior to digital with higher noise, distortion and crosstalk, and imperfect frequency response)

On the other hand if you want a phono pre to optimise your vinyl to the best it can be, have a look at the parks audio waxwing, with its "magic" click reduction filter, and many other features for optimising the sound quality. It transformed my vinyl listening.
 
Last edited:
Hello antcollinet, I have recently hooked up a Wiim Pro to my system that I listen to in my office while I’m working. And I like the sound very much, but I have listened to a song via the Wiim and then put the album on with the same song, and to me there’s no comparison, vinyl wins out every time. The streaming music, while sounding very good, with great soundstage and imaging, it doesn’t have the life that vinyl does, for me. I guess I will be forever “old school”. So 90 percent of my critical listening is vinyl with a little CD stuck in there.
So, I am looking to see if a dedicated phono amp would be better than the phono amps in my current amps. Looking to spend maybe a little less than having to invest in a upgraded vintage amp.
 
Hello antcollinet, I have recently hooked up a Wiim Pro to my system that I listen to in my office while I’m working. And I like the sound very much, but I have listened to a song via the Wiim and then put the album on with the same song, and to me there’s no comparison, vinyl wins out every time. The streaming music, while sounding very good, with great soundstage and imaging, it doesn’t have the life that vinyl does, for me. I guess I will be forever “old school”. So 90 percent of my critical listening is vinyl with a little CD stuck in there.
So, I am looking to see if a dedicated phono amp would be better than the phono amps in my current amps. Looking to spend maybe a little less than having to invest in a upgraded vintage amp.
Well, like I say - have a look at the waxwing. If that is too pricey, then have a look at the Spartan 5 or 15, or one of the Cambridge Audio models. But I am not sure you are going to get a significant audible benefit compared to those built into your amps.
 
Hello antcollinet, I have recently hooked up a Wiim Pro to my system that I listen to in my office while I’m working. And I like the sound very much, but I have listened to a song via the Wiim and then put the album on with the same song, and to me there’s no comparison, vinyl wins out every time. The streaming music, while sounding very good, with great soundstage and imaging, it doesn’t have the life that vinyl does, for me. I guess I will be forever “old school”. So 90 percent of my critical listening is vinyl with a little CD stuck in there.
So, I am looking to see if a dedicated phono amp would be better than the phono amps in my current amps. Looking to spend maybe a little less than having to invest in a upgraded vintage amp.
Unless the exact same master is used for recording both CD and record a ear based test cannot be relied upon. It is because one master can sound better and that can be the record. A proper comparison would result in the CD being the better format for many reasons.
 
Thanks very much for the input, I’ll research the Spartan to see if that might work. I’m starting to think that a new phono stage isn’t going to be a huge improvement from what I already have. But the journey continues I guess, the search for the perfect sound without breaking the bank.
Anyone else have any experience in adding a phono amp to their vintage system?? It would be great to hear the results.
 
I think, FWIW, the suggestion for the Waxwing is a darned good one.
EDIT: Oh -- the Thorens is nice -- what are you using for a cartridge, @mcdunha11?
The Sansui 4000 is an old receiver. Unless you (or someone else) has carefully rehabbed it, the sound quality is probably nothing like it was capable of new. If nothing else, a decent quality modern outboard phono preamp will be quieter (in terms of noise). It also won't have 50 year old passive components in it.

I do, FWIW, have a Sansui 5000A here :rolleyes: Very good tuner section; otherwise OK but not remarkable. I've never tried the phono preamp in it.


Your Advents are limiting what you'll get out of your system, too, I'm afraid. Also, what is their status vis-a-vis rehabilitation? They are very simple loudspeakers and will benefit audibly from a fresh, decent quality capacitor in the crossover.

Have you asked folks at audiokarma about your system and their thoughts on modern phono preamps? Your hardware is more familiar to the average poster there than here. ;)
 
I think, FWIW, the suggestion for the Waxwing is a darned good one.
EDIT: Oh -- the Thorens is nice -- what are you using for a cartridge, @mcdunha11?
The Sansui 4000 is an old receiver. Unless you (or someone else) has carefully rehabbed it, the sound quality is probably nothing like it was capable of new. If nothing else, a decent quality modern outboard phono preamp will be quieter (in terms of noise). It also won't have 50 year old passive components in it.

I do, FWIW, have a Sansui 5000A here :rolleyes: Very good tuner section; otherwise OK but not remarkable. I've never tried the phono preamp in it.


Your Advents are limiting what you'll get out of your system, too, I'm afraid. Also, what is their status vis-a-vis rehabilitation? They are very simple loudspeakers and will benefit audibly from a fresh, decent quality capacitor in the crossover.

Have you asked folks at audiokarma about your system and their thoughts on modern phono preamps? Your hardware is more familiar to the average poster there than here. ;)
Hello mhardy, I really like my Thorens. It has a Grado gf3 cartridge with a new 8MZ stylus I put on about a year ago. I also really like my Sansui 4000, has a wider soundstage than my Kenwood with more bass. My OLA have been refoamed and capacitors updated, but not sure about the NLA, guy I got them from didn’t know too much history on them. I will check out Audiokarma and see what the opinion is over there. Thanks
 
I think, FWIW, the suggestion for the Waxwing is a darned good one.
EDIT: Oh -- the Thorens is nice -- what are you using for a cartridge, @mcdunha11?
The Sansui 4000 is an old receiver. Unless you (or someone else) has carefully rehabbed it, the sound quality is probably nothing like it was capable of new. If nothing else, a decent quality modern outboard phono preamp will be quieter (in terms of noise). It also won't have 50 year old passive components in it.

I do, FWIW, have a Sansui 5000A here :rolleyes: Very good tuner section; otherwise OK but not remarkable. I've never tried the phono preamp in it.


Your Advents are limiting what you'll get out of your system, too, I'm afraid. Also, what is their status vis-a-vis rehabilitation? They are very simple loudspeakers and will benefit audibly from a fresh, decent quality capacitor in the crossover.

Have you asked folks at audiokarma about your system and their thoughts on modern phono preamps? Your hardware is more familiar to the average poster there than here. ;)
Hello mhardy, I really like my Thorens. It has a Grado gf3 cartridge with a recent 8MZ stylus. I also really like my Sansui, very warm sons with good base from my Advents. My OLAs have been refoamed and the capacitors have been upgraded. On the NLAs, not sure, guy I got them from didn’t know too much about them. What they say about stacking Advents is true. But I will pose the question to Audiokarma as well and see what the consensus is. Thanks for the input and Merry Christmas!
 
If the phono section in the Sansui has not been recapped, you might get improved sound with even a basic modern MM phono preamp, such as the Pluto 2 from U-Turn or the latest Schiit phono pre. I think both are under $150 so it would be worth a test, you could always return the preamp if you do not hear an improvement.
 
Last edited:
If the phono section in the Sansui has not been recapped, you might get improved sound with even a basic modern MM phono preamp, such as the Pluto 2 from U-Turn or the latest Schiit phono pre. I think both are under $150 so it would be worth a test, you could always return the amp if you do not hear an improvement.
Good morning, yes, I’ve been reading up on the ifi zen, not sure I want to spend the money for a phono 3, but maybe the Air, to just see what it does to my system. Because you never know until you do it.
 
Just to bring up the science part.... You can get a phono test record, like the Ortofon. This will have frequency sweeps and steady test tones. It will allow you to measure (e.g. with an audio interface to your receiver and REW), the performance of your current setup. You can then see any issues, like speed problems or frequency response issues. This could help you decide on what it is that might make a real improvement to the vinyl playback. You can then make the same measurement after a change and see if it actually made an improvement.

As mentioned above, digital really is a better format. But as also mentioned, digital tracks often come from different masters than the vinyl so even if you properly level match them for a listening test, they will sound different. Buy the master, not the format, as I'm sure someone has said. You might also be trained to really like your vinyl sound, so a clean digital might sound a bit harsh or sound hollow missing because it does not have the background noise.

If the phono section of the sansui has not been rebuilt, you might be missing highs (or other things). I had a Mac C30 with a bad cap in the right channel, but it still kind of played. It was clear under test equipment what was going on, even if my ear did not always hear it.
 
To further what some people said, I'll add my $.02c.

"Reformed audiophile" here, turned much more objectivist with some caveats. Personally, the best "upgrades" you can do are in the speakers and room acoustics. Nothing you do in the source will equal this in terms of general outcome, but this isn't as easy to do, so many focus on audio equipment.

I have 1000+ LPs, some acquired from my father from his radio DJ days in southern California during the 70s and some I bought myself. The difference in some comparing LP to CDs can be quite vast in my own experience. Some rules of thumb (as opposed to objective truths) are if the recording is from '90s on go digital, the CDs/Flac/etc sound better or at very least equal. Older recordings done originally in analog can subjectively sound much better and I have a few thoughts on why that could be. Sometimes the masters have been degraded even if they were the same, because of multiple production runs. Sometimes the eras of the ADCs was the problem. Sometimes the recording was never released in digital format.

Sansui made excellent audio equipment back in their day, and the second hand market for some of their older gear reflex this. My grandfather had a Sansui stack I loved and I have owned a couple pieces in my days. They aren't the end all be all. You should definitely have the caps examined and replaced, check that the resistors are still in spec and have it rebiased as the biased very likely drifted cause of the prior. If you have a good technician this shouldn't be super expensive and will make them perform like they used to.

I used to be super into DIY audio, mostly tube based, not because they are better objectively, but they are fun and subjectively pleasing. My reference system is more around stuff like Hypex NCx, active crossovers, etc. I still keep my phono (for now) in the tube space, because LPs are a bit of a nostalgia in the total experience and my LCR tube based phono is very pleasing, if not objectively higher-end. I own many of my favorite recordings on both, so it depends on the mood.
 
Last edited:
then put the album on with the same song, and to me there’s no comparison, vinyl wins out every time. The streaming music, while sounding very good, with great soundstage and imaging, it doesn’t have the life that vinyl does, for me
It sounds like your existing phono preamplifier is truly perfect. I don't think you need to change anything.
 
Welcome to the forum.


If that is genuinely your objective, you should be moving towards a digital setup.

Vinyl is great - but it is for the experience rather than the sound quality. (You are on a forum that bases its advice on science and engineering - its in the name. Vinyl is objectively inferior to digital with higher noise, distortion and crosstalk, and imperfect frequency response)

On the other hand if you want a phono pre to optimise your vinyl to the best it can be, have a look at the parks audio waxwing, with its "magic" click reduction filter, and many other features for optimising the sound quality. It transformed my vinyl listening.

Unless the exact same master is used for recording both CD and record a ear based test cannot be relied upon. It is because one master can sound better and that can be the record. A proper comparison would result in the CD being the better format for many reasons.

Having my actual experiences as briefly shared below, I essentially agree with above comments and suggestions given by @antcollinet and @Doodski.

In December 2022, I "revived" my on-the-fly vinyl-listening chain, i.e. TT DENON DP57L + MC DENON DL301 MarkII using phono preamp AUDIO-TECHNICA AT-PEQ30 and audio-interface TASCAM US-1x2HR (for AD conversion), in my PC-DSP-based multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully active audio setup (ref. #688 on my project thread).
- Revival of analog LP player (MC cartridge) in my DSP multichannel multi-driver multi-amplifier fully active stereo system for real time on-the-fly vinyl LP listening (and digital recording, if needed): #688
and,
- Inside of Audio-Technica AT-PEQ30 phono preamplifier, and successful DIY suppression of inaudible EMF (electro-magnetic field) interference noise: #697

Then, I intensively enjoyed comparative listening to several nice vinyl LP disks and their original (or remastered) CD releases (ref. #688, #722, #740) including remastered (2021) wonderful vinyl LP of 45-rpm 188-gram.

Even though the vinyl listening gears still perfectly remain in my DSP-based multichannel audio rig, nowadays I seldom perform the "vinyl ceremony", as I described in my summary post #758. (For the details of my latest audio setup, please refer to my post #931 on my project thread.)
- Summary of my motivations reviving vinyl TT (turntable) in DSP-based multichannel time-aligned multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully active stereo audio setup: #758
In my post #758, I wrote as follows:

I recently revived my gem/treasure TT DENON DP-57L + DENON DL-301MkII MC in my DSP-based multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully-time-aligned (0.1 msec precision) fully-active stereo audio setup; please refer to here and here.

What were/are my motivations?

1. Nostalgic aestheticity of TT (ref. photos here and here).
2. Naive nostalgia for "the ceremony" of vinyl listening.
3. My audio-DIY-ish interests in "implementation of real-time on-the-fly listening to vinyl" in DSP-based multi-channel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully active audio setup which has safe and flexible on-the-fly relative gain (tone) control functionality.
4. My naive interest and curiosity for comparative listening to vinyl vs. its CD release in my audio setup (ref. here, here and here), only for a few (less than ten) vinyl discs; especially recently released well QC-ed thick heavy (188 gram!) 45 RPM vinyl of jazz piano trio music vs. its CD release (ref. here).

Since I have already accomplished (almost) all of the above 1. through 4., I assume I will seldom listen to vinyl (maybe once in two months, or less) even though the TT should remain in my multichannel audio rig because of 1. and 2.

And, you would please note that I have already "digitized" all of my around 300 old LPs into 192 kHz (or 96 kHz, 44.1 kHz) AIFF format and have taken the digitized LP tracks into my digital music library (ref. here and here).

BTW, some of my audio/music enthu friends, including "the" jazz fanatic gentleman (ref. here and here), may bring his/her favorite vinyl records to my listening room for our vinyl ceremony and listening enjoyment using my latest DSP-based multichannel audio setup (ref. here) having TT in it.

I essentially agree with @Sal1950's stance and points on this topic shared on the remote thread.

Edit: as I wrote here on the remote thread,,,
The already digitized vinyl LPs are not yet discarded! __They are still sitting on my shelves upstairs in perfect conditions.
Only if needed, of course I can bring any of them onto my revived TT. :)
 
Last edited:
Having my actual experiences as briefly shared below, I essentially agree with above comments and suggestions given by @antcollinet and @Doodski.

In December 2022, I "revived" my on-the-fly vinyl-listening chain, i.e. TT DENON DP57L + MC DENON DL301 MarkII using phono preamp AUDIO-TECHNICA AT-PEQ30 and audio-interface TASCAM US-1x2HR (for AD conversion), in my PC-DSP-based multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully active audio setup (ref. #688 on my project thread).
- Revival of analog LP player (MC cartridge) in my DSP multichannel multi-driver multi-amplifier fully active stereo system for real time on-the-fly vinyl LP listening (and digital recording, if needed): #688
and,
- Inside of Audio-Technica AT-PEQ30 phono preamplifier, and successful DIY suppression of inaudible EMF (electro-magnetic field) interference noise: #697

Then, I intensively enjoyed comparative listening to several nice vinyl LP disks and their original (or remastered) CD releases (ref. #688, #722, #740) including remastered (2021) wonderful vinyl LP of 45-rpm 188-gram.
....
I haven't gone down your rabbit hole yet, but I am likely to in the near future. Good references.
 
Back
Top Bottom