Phono Preamp Question

[Mirglip]

Hi All,
Been reading forums alot and just joined. Most folks here way beyond my technical expertise so I am content just to read and learn and ponder.

Tried to find a thread with my questions but didn't so here goes.

I am building a nice system (within my budget) as I have more than a few vinyl records and a fair amount of cd's. My old receiver (JVC) was purchased overseas back in the 70's and now does duty in my workshop along with a parametric equalizer (also vintage) and cd player.

My new receiver is an Outlaw RR2160 MKII. I had my Technics SL-3300 refurbished and had a new cartridge installed. Not an expensive one ($150) but recommended by refurbisher. I play the phono directly plugged into the receiver phono jacks. I play cd's thru a Audiolab 6000CDT direct into Outlaw via fiber-optic cable. My speakers are Polk Audio Signature Elite ES60's and I have an SVS SB-2000 subwoofer. I am not displeased with the sound I get, especially after reconfiguring where the speakers were located, in fact I think it's quite good but after reading your forums a bit and other forums I am wondering if I might make a few tweaks here and get even better sound (you know, eternal quest for better sound).

The Outlaw has a Burr-Brown internal DAC and don't feel there is much to be gained on the CD side of things without a huge expenditure of cash. But on the phono side, I am wondering if I might see some significant improvements by 1.) installing a better cartridge (Technics recommended Goldring GX1022) and/or possibly adding a phono preamp (Parasound Zphone XMR is the one I am leaning towards). As a note, the specs on my Technics says it outputs 3mv. I need to turn the receiver up to about 2/3 volume as opposed to 1/3 volume for CD when playing vinyl. Outlaw suggested just switching the amp to the MC setting vs the MM setting which I tried and the volume requirements certainly got into the CD ballpark but I'm not comfortable doing that so I switched it back. I'm not a crank it til your ears bleed listener but I do like it up a bit. Also, the Outlaw handles the increased volume for the phono quite well as I do not detect any added distortion.

So my dilemma to you is, I can't upgrade the cartridge and add a preamp at the same time so assuming there is gain to be had, what is the biggest bang for the buck..??

Thanks in advance for your inputs..

 

[somebodyelse]

Tricky - don't have any measurements to say what the performance of the Outlaw phono stage is, and you don't say which cartridge you have. You also aren't clear on what you're trying to achieve - 'better sound' is rather subjective. The only specific problem mentioned is the mismatch in level between CD and phono.

http://outlawaudio.com/outlaw/docs/RR2160MkIImanual.pdf

Their specs are a bit sparse. Input sensitivities are defined for the line level and phono inputs. Whether the digital input is scaled to the same level is guesswork - it could be, but it might just be feeding full DAC output (~2V, 10dB more than line sensitivity) into a line level input. That could account for the difference in required volume setting. If you have an old tape player or radio their output is usually closer to the 200mV level than the 2V level. You could use that as a test - If tape or radio have similar volume to the phono then the digital input is just louder than the rest.

Output level varies a fair bit between cartridge models, so if yours has unusually low output that may also be an explanation for the difference in volume setting. Gain varies somewhat between phono amp models. MC and MM usually use somewhat different load too, so it's common to have separate input connectors for them. Outlaw's specs say both have a 47k load (common for MM, much higher than usual for MC) which suggests the switch is just changing gain. In that case Outlaw's suggestion makes some sense although I'd worry about overload margin and recovery (potential for weird things happening on pops and clicks).

 

[MaxwellsEq]

There isn't anything wrong with having some sources louder than others. For many years I used a preamp that was designed before CD. Level from a tuner or cassette were broadly similar and level from the phono input depended on the cartridge. Plugging a CD player into the aux required turning the volume down a large amount because CD has much higher levels. In the end, I just put a resistor pad to bring the CD player in line.

The only disadvantages with significant changes in level are: remembering to turn down the volume before changing to CD, and the possibility that the balance of the volume control is less good at lower volumes, leading to channel imbalances.

 

[Mirglip]

Tricky - don't have any measurements to say what the performance of the Outlaw phono stage is, and you don't say which cartridge you have. You also aren't clear on what you're trying to achieve - 'better sound' is rather subjective. The only specific problem mentioned is the mismatch in level between CD and phono.

http://outlawaudio.com/outlaw/docs/RR2160MkIImanual.pdf

Their specs are a bit sparse. Input sensitivities are defined for the line level and phono inputs. Whether the digital input is scaled to the same level is guesswork - it could be, but it might just be feeding full DAC output (~2V, 10dB more than line sensitivity) into a line level input. That could account for the difference in required volume setting. If you have an old tape player or radio their output is usually closer to the 200mV level than the 2V level. You could use that as a test - If tape or radio have similar volume to the phono then the digital input is just louder than the rest.

Output level varies a fair bit between cartridge models, so if yours has unusually low output that may also be an explanation for the difference in volume setting. Gain varies somewhat between phono amp models. MC and MM usually use somewhat different load too, so it's common to have separate input connectors for them. Outlaw's specs say both have a 47k load (common for MM, much higher than usual for MC) which suggests the switch is just changing gain. In that case Outlaw's suggestion makes some sense although I'd worry about overload margin and recovery (potential for weird things happening on pops and clicks

Tricky - don't have any measurements to say what the performance of the Outlaw phono stage is, and you don't say which cartridge you have. You also aren't clear on what you're trying to achieve - 'better sound' is rather subjective. The only specific problem mentioned is the mismatch in level between CD and phono.

http://outlawaudio.com/outlaw/docs/RR2160MkIImanual.pdf

Their specs are a bit sparse. Input sensitivities are defined for the line level and phono inputs. Whether the digital input is scaled to the same level is guesswork - it could be, but it might just be feeding full DAC output (~2V, 10dB more than line sensitivity) into a line level input. That could account for the difference in required volume setting. If you have an old tape player or radio their output is usually closer to the 200mV level than the 2V level. You could use that as a test - If tape or radio have similar volume to the phono then the digital input is just louder than the rest.

Output level varies a fair bit between cartridge models, so if yours has unusually low output that may also be an explanation for the difference in volume setting. Gain varies somewhat between phono amp models. MC and MM usually use somewhat different load too, so it's common to have separate input connectors for them. Outlaw's specs say both have a 47k load (common for MM, much higher than usual for MC) which suggests the switch is just changing gain. In that case Outlaw's suggestion makes some sense although I'd worry about overload margin and recovery (potential for weird things happening on pops and clicks).

Hello Somebodyelse and thanks for reply.
I understand that I left a few things out so I'll try and rectify. The cartridge is pretty nondescript. Doesn't have any written model numbers I can find while still attached to the tonearm. It has a black top with lime green bottom holding the stylus. It also has a circle with a triangle within and a slash down the right side leg of triangle. I assume that is the company emblem.

What I am going for is somewhat hard to say as 'I don't know what I don't know' . I am impressed with a large and well defined soundstage. Some of my vinyl is very good in this regard, others not so much. So is that the vinyl or the cartridge..? I'm pretty sure there are cartridges better than mine but how much better within my budget ($400-500)..? The bass in my system is pleasing to my ears, punchy when needed and deep when not so not looking so much for improvements there. The mids are fine as are the highs but I'm wondering if they could be better, more articulate maybe. I'm sure there are systems that create music much better than mine but since I'm not extremely wealthy, there are limits to what I can do. I am just going for making my system the best it can be within my budget constraints and from reading this forum, a lot of people here are doing the same.

The reason I brought up the volume level difference is because on my JVC, up to about 2oclock on the volume dial, sound is just louder but still very clean, after that it starts to introduce a little extra noise (course, 2oclock on the JVC is way louder than I normally play it so not really a problem). Doesn't seem to be that way with the Outlaw as far as introducing extra noise and the guy I spoke to said as much but I just don't like running my amps that high for desired result. A better cartridge with more output or a preamp would probably fix that and get the digital and analog volumes closer together. However, I want to get more from the cartridge or the preamp than just volume.

So yes, its tricky and I realize that my limited knowledge in audio measurements doesn't help but is what it is. You brought up some good points and again I appreciate your input.

 

[Mirglip]

There isn't anything wrong with having some sources louder than others. For many years I used a preamp that was designed before CD. Level from a tuner or cassette were broadly similar and level from the phono input depended on the cartridge. Plugging a CD player into the aux required turning the volume down a large amount because CD has much higher levels. In the end, I just put a resistor pad to bring the CD player in line.

The only disadvantages with significant changes in level are: remembering to turn down the volume before changing to CD, and the possibility that the balance of the volume control is less good at lower volumes, leading to channel imbalances.

Hello MaxwellsEq and thanks for reply.

Yes I agree with you and I could just live with it but my issue was a little different than yours. You had a set listening level that was too loud with CD and just turned it down while I have a listening level that is too low with vinyl and have to turn it up. Also, I'm wondering if along with more volume, would a better cartridge or adding a preamp also bring along better sound than I currently have. Don't know the answer to that hence the post.

Reading this forum tells me a lot of people are constantly fiddling with their systems looking for that 'better sound'.

Thanks again.

 

[Dimitri]

The cartridge is pretty nondescript. Doesn't have any written model numbers I can find while still attached to the tonearm. It has a black top with lime green bottom holding the stylus. It also has a circle with a triangle within and a slash down the right side leg of triangle. I assume that is the company emblem.

What you described looks like the Audio Technica logo.

Take a look here and see if any of these look familiar:
https://www.audio-technica.com/en-us/cartridges/styli-accessories/a-t-moving-magnet-styli

As far as picking between replacing pre-amp or cartridge, I find myself leaning towards replacing the cartridge "first"

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Hello MaxwellsEq and thanks for reply.

Yes I agree with you and I could just live with it but my issue was a little different than yours. You had a set listening level that was too loud with CD and just turned it down while I have a listening level that is too low with vinyl and have to turn it up. Also, I'm wondering if along with more volume, would a better cartridge or adding a preamp also bring along better sound than I currently have. Don't know the answer to that hence the post.

Reading this forum tells me a lot of people are constantly fiddling with their systems looking for that 'better sound'.

Thanks again.

Are you saying you cannot get the volume from the cartridge up to very high levels if you turn the volume control fully to the right?

 

[somebodyelse]

What you described looks like the Audio Technica logo.

The description had me thinking of the venerable and discontinued AT95E, although $150 seems rather steep for that. It's a bit steep for the AT-VM95E which replaced it too. Perhaps not the highest output, but no cartridge is going to close the gap by the amount mentioned.

Are you saying you cannot get the volume from the cartridge up to very high levels if you turn the volume control fully to the right?

No, just doesn't like turning it up for some reason. From the original post:

I need to turn the receiver up to about 2/3 volume as opposed to 1/3 volume for CD when playing vinyl.

I am impressed with a large and well defined soundstage. Some of my vinyl is very good in this regard, others not so much. So is that the vinyl or the cartridge..?

My guess is the vinyl. There is significant variation in quality between recordings, and if the system wasn't capable of it you wouldn't be hearing it at all.

There are certainly differences in frequency response between cartridges, and for MM between the same cartridge with different loading capacitance. Unfortunately I'm not aware of a site with a comprehensive set of measurements similar to what we're now seeing for headphones and speakers. That makes it a bit of a roll of the dice swapping cartridges or even just upgrading stylus on the same body, as you don't know what the effect will be. I guess that's part of the fun for some people.

 

[Dimitri]

The description had me thinking of the venerable and discontinued AT95E, although $150 seems rather steep for that. It's a bit steep for the AT-VM95E which replaced it too. Perhaps not the highest output, but no cartridge is going to close the gap by the amount mentioned.

It was installed as part of a "refurbishment" so as far as pricing goes, all bets are off
If we were to take AT on their word , the AT95x family have a 18-20dB channel separation and channel balance is 2.5dB,
Going up in AT published prices, the AT5xx, AT6xx and At7xxx increase channel separation to 28dB and 30dB, and decrease channel balance from down to 1dB .
Whether this is worth spending $300 to $600 it depends on one's sense of adventure.
But no preamp is going to improve the cartridge.

As for having to "turn up the volume control", I wouldn't mind, it's free

 

[Mirglip]

What you described looks like the Audio Technica logo.

Take a look here and see if any of these look familiar:
https://www.audio-technica.com/en-us/cartridges/styli-accessories/a-t-moving-magnet-styli

As far as picking between replacing pre-amp or cartridge, I find myself leaning towards replacing the cartridge "first"

Dimitri thank you for reply

Yes it is an audio-technica and as best I can read upside-down it is the AT-VMN95E cartridge.

 

[Mirglip]

The description had me thinking of the venerable and discontinued AT95E, although $150 seems rather steep for that. It's a bit steep for the AT-VM95E which replaced it too. Perhaps not the highest output, but no cartridge is going to close the gap by the amount mentioned.

No, just doesn't like turning it up for some reason. From the original post:


My guess is the vinyl. There is significant variation in quality between recordings, and if the system wasn't capable of it you wouldn't be hearing it at all.

There are certainly differences in frequency response between cartridges, and for MM between the same cartridge with different loading capacitance. Unfortunately I'm not aware of a site with a comprehensive set of measurements similar to what we're now seeing for headphones and speakers. That makes it a bit of a roll of the dice swapping cartridges or even just upgrading stylus on the same body, as you don't know what the effect will be. I guess that's part of the fun for some people.

Hi somebodyelse,

I looked further and with a mirror and magnifying glass I found the at-vmn95e number. I was generalizing about the cartridge cost as it was a package deal and while I probably have the invoice somewhere, it's not handy now. I'm pretty sure the cartridge was near the $100 mark tho so yes, looks like I overpaid for cartridge. He did fix the turntable issues it and it works great now so if he made a little extra on cartridge, it didn't break bank and I have learned a bit..

At $50, even $100, this is not an expensive cartridge. I did search for reviews and found a few. Most agree it is a great cartridge at this price point.

Your correct, I don't like having to use 2/3 of my volume knob to play at levels I like. I bought a 100 watt amp specifically so I wouldn't have to. Maybe I'm wrong, but I always thought that using less volume knob to reach your listening pleasure was a good thing (oddly, I play guitar as well and volume is a whole different thing there)..

Regardless, would I experience a marked difference in my systems sound with a more expensive cartridge..??

 

[dualazmak]

Just for your reference, I recently revived my rather old TT DENON DP-57L +DENON DL301MkII MC Cartridge within my PC-DSP-based multichannel multi-driver multi-amplifier stereo audio system using AUDIO-TECHNICA AT-PEQ30 phono preamp and TASCUM US-1x2HR audio interface (USB-ADC).

If you would be interested, please visit my post here and here on my project thread.

 

[LTig]

Hi somebodyelse,

I looked further and with a mirror and magnifying glass I found the at-vmn95e number. I was generalizing about the cartridge cost as it was a package deal and while I probably have the invoice somewhere, it's not handy now. I'm pretty sure the cartridge was near the $100 mark tho so yes, looks like I overpaid for cartridge. He did fix the turntable issues it and it works great now so if he made a little extra on cartridge, it didn't break bank and I have learned a bit..
[..]
Regardless, would I experience a marked difference in my systems sound with a more expensive cartridge..??

The change to a cartridge with a line contact needle should make an audible difference - those do track better (less distortion in the highs) and (at least in my experience when I switched from an elliptical needle to a similar VdH type needle) showed less disturbing noise and pops, especially with worn records.

Luckily you don't need to change your cartridge but just replace your elliptical needle (from your AT-VM95EN - is it this one?) by a microlinear needle (from the AT-VM95ML). There is one caveat though - the adjustment of the cartridge must be perfect otherwise distortion could be higher instead of lower. OTOH the lifetime of the needle is twice as long as your current one.

Of course you could also choose a more expensive MM cartridge like the AT-VM540ML or AT-VM740ML or a MC pickup like the AT-OC9XML or AT-33PTG/II.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Your correct, I don't like having to use 2/3 of my volume knob to play at levels I like. I bought a 100 watt amp specifically so I wouldn't have to. Maybe I'm wrong, but I always thought that using less volume knob to reach your listening pleasure was a good thing (oddly, I play guitar as well and volume is a whole different thing there

The position of the volume knob is irrelevant. Apart from the obvious function of turning the sound up when you want to listen louder, it's also there to handle differences between sources.

Assuming you are not overloading the inputs, and the volume potentiometer is good quality, there is no "proper" position for the volume knob. For example, suppose you play a remastered CD from the 2000s and then decide to listen to the same album but a 1986 CD, you will need to turn the volume up a lot for the latter.

However, poorer quality potentiometers may have channel imbalances at different settings (usually worse the further anticlockwise you go), so you might want to minimise the effect of you don't trust the volume control to be good quality.

 

[Mirglip]

The change to a cartridge with a line contact needle should make an audible difference - those do track better (less distortion in the highs) and (at least in my experience when I switched from an elliptical needle to a similar VdH type needle) showed less disturbing noise and pops, especially with worn records.

Luckily you don't need to change your cartridge but just replace your elliptical needle (from your AT-VM95EN - is it this one?) by a microlinear needle (from the AT-VM95ML). There is one caveat though - the adjustment of the cartridge must be perfect otherwise distortion could be higher instead of lower. OTOH the lifetime of the needle is twice as long as your current one.

Of course you could also choose a more expensive MM cartridge like the AT-VM540ML or AT-VM740ML or a MC pickup like the AT-OC9XML or AT-33PTG/II.

Ltig, thanks for your input.

I am looking at changing my cartridge (AT-VMN95E) and upgrading to something like the Nagaoka M-200 which is understand has a very good soundstage (which I like) and good sonics as well. Your suggestion for the line contact is something I would consider but my TT is a 1970's Technics (SL-3300) that doesn't have VTA adjustment which I think is required for a line, micro-line, and above cut stylus. Someday I will upgrade TT but for now I need to stay with the one I have.

Another response (different forum) suggested my system (Outlaw/Polk) was already somewhat 'warm' and the M-200 might make it too warm. They suggested the Nagaoka JT-80LB cartridge. I haven't researched that one yet. Do you have any input on either my system being warm or the cartridge..??

 

[LTig]

Your suggestion for the line contact is something I would consider but my TT is a 1970's Technics (SL-3300) that doesn't have VTA adjustment which I think is required for a line, micro-line, and above cut stylus.

This makes sense.

Another response (different forum) suggested my system (Outlaw/Polk) was already somewhat 'warm' and the M-200 might make it too warm. They suggested the Nagaoka JT-80LB cartridge. I haven't researched that one yet. Do you have any input on either my system being warm or the cartridge..??

No, sorry.

I need a new MC pickup and decided to go for either the AT-OC9XML or the AT33PTG/II (recommended here at ASR) to replace my Van den Hul MC ONE Special on my Linn LP12. An overhaul would be possible but for € 800 minimum, a new one is now € 1800. I liked the VdH because its sound was very close to CD, but it's just too expensive so I shall find out how the AT performs.

 

[Angsty]

I don’t know how the OP ultimately resolved his dilemma, but my vote would have been to upgrade cartridge to a Nagaoka MP-200, if budget permits. Sticking with an elliptical is a good idea for newer enthusiasts. Even a switch to the nude elliptical VM95EN cartridge is likely to yield an audible improvement.

An advanced profile cartridge takes a fair bit of alignment work to get the best out of and may not be the best upgrade for someone still starting out. An elliptical stylus is a lot more forgiving than a line contact which requires azimuth and VTA precision, along with standard geometry alignment.

Changing to any new cart might require investment in a VTF scale, an alignment protractor and an azimuth adjustable headshell (esp. for an advanced profile) at the time of install, or perhaps paying for professional installation.

The Outlaw MM phono seems to be better than average for integrated amp phonos, per the measurements by Stereophile. I would not recommend using the native MC setting; get a step-up transformer if you must use an LOMC cart. I would not recommend a LOMC at this time due to the wide range of improvement possible within the MM family.

Outlaw Audio RR2160 stereo receiver Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

 

[Tom C]

I’m afraid Mr. @Mirglip is long gone Only joined for specific replies, I expect. Unfortunate. He had a pretty cool graphic for avatar. Anyway, I think you can only get the best from this forum by spending some time and putting in some effort. Just like anything else in life that is worthwhile.
The key to this question is where he says in the original post “I am not displeased with the sound I get.” He doesn’t have a problem to solve. He just wants to know if there is something better out there than what he has. He knows that he doesn’t know what’s possible and what isn’t, and wonders if he’s maxed out or no. He thinks there may be gains to be had, if only he spends more money.
Actually, he’s probably already very near the best obtainable from the medium. He asks if it’s the vinyl or the medium that accounts for the differences he’s hearing between records. Of course, the answer is not the speakers, not the amp, not the phono stage, and not the cartridge. It’s the vinyl itself that causes different records to sound different. He was wondering if maybe somehow the interaction of the stylus with the groove accounts for the difference, or something about how the phono stage handles the signal from the cartridge. This is confused nonsense, but these notions are encouraged and perpetuated by the audiophile press. He should be informed that more money absolutely does not equal better sound. Excellent, SOTA sound does not cost $100,000. And a TOTL vinyl rig does not cost more than $4,000 brand new. As in, if you spend more, you get exactly zero better sound. Not a little better. Zero better.
By the way, I have a tone arm with adjustable VTA, and a $5,000 AT cartridge with Special Line Contact. I tried and tried to hear a difference adjusting the VTA. I cannot. Set it low. Set it high. Spun it up and down real time. Set it for a week. Adjusted again, listened for a month, then six months, then a year, then three years, five years. Never heard a difference. Ever. When I think about it, how could there be a difference in FR? It may affect tracking and record wear, I expect it would. But what could be the mechanism for affecting FR? I do not believe there is one, yet that is exactly what you will read in the popular press.

 

[Angsty]

Thanks,@Tom C. Regarding VTA, others have similar thoughts. I found one article on TNT that goes into some depth:

Exposing the VTA myth? [English]

Exposing the VTA myth, everything you'd wish to know about the Vertical Tracking Angle and such - www.tnt-audio.com - TNT-Audio - Internet HiFi magazine

www.tnt-audio.com

Soundsmith also seems to suggest that static VTA/SRA matters less:

https://www.sound-smith.com/soundsmith-cartridge-alignment

As for my own experience, I can only say that trials with VTA have been subjective and not blind-tested. I heard some subtle changes, but that could result from bias. I'm currently using both a Shibata and a Microridge cart, both MC. Meanwhile, my more modestly priced Nagaoka MP-300 performs as well on many albums with an elliptical stylus.

I wholeheartedly agree that a TOTL vinyl rig does not have to cost more than $4,000 new, with a careful selection of components. My own main rig cost around that figure, but composed of used components with a much higher MSRP because of my own purchasing biases. My second rig is much less expensive but still performs similarly.