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rongon

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I'm just a self-taught hobbyist, not a trained engineer, but I've been at this a while and I believe I understand a few basic things. (Although if anyone wants to correct me, please go right ahead. :))

One thing we know is true is that different amplifying devices have different headroom capabilities. Some popular opamps, for instance, cannot swing output signal voltage all the way from 'rail to rail'. That means that if you have an opamp phono stage with +/-12VDC supply, the opamps may not be able to swing the signal beyond about 20V peak to peak, which is 10V peak, which is about 7V rms. (I think I got that right. Anyone who knows better, please correct me! Thanks.)

Let's say we have a MM cartridge with 5mV nominal output signal. Let's also say that a major click/pop excites the needle enough to produce a pulse that is 16X that level (+24dB), so 0.005*16 = 80mV pulse. (This was measured and found to be likely in real life, in M. Jones "Valve Amplifiers Third Ed.")

Let's say our phono preamp has gain of 40dB, which is 100X.

If that pulse is cleanly amplified by the phono preamp, it's going to be 8V at the output.

As you can see, that pop will clip the opamp preamp, by a volt, or over 10% past its overload threshold. It's important that the preamp be able to handle this overload gracefully, and without lasting effects that make the overload more audible (and annoying) than it should be. Once the overload condition has ceased, the phono preamp should return to normal operation as instantly as possible (instant recovery from overload).

The pulse of signal voltage caused by this click/pop should not be a big deal for a traditional line stage or integrated amp being driven by the phono preamp because there will usually be a volume control (attenuator) between the phono preamp output and the amplifier input. Presumably you will not be running the volume control pinned to 10. If you have your volume control set to -20dB attenuation (output 10x less than the input) then the amplifier will see 0.8V from that big pop on the record. That's survivable. If you have the volume control set to a much louder -10dB attenuation (output 3.2x less than the input) then that pop will send 2.5V to the input of the amplifier, which will be very likely to overload it. So if you play your LPs with the volume control almost all the way up, you'll need to go to pro level gear capable of accepting a 4V input signal without overload. That's probably not necessary for home hi-fi.

Another limiting factor regarding headroom in budget phono preamps is how the RIAA EQ circuit is implemented. Some preamps use a single opamp per channel with the EQ in that opamp's feedback loop. This means the opamp must drive both the load (the following preamp or amplifier input) *and* the EQ network in its feedback loop, at the same time. Many contemporary desktop amplifiers have very low impedance inputs, some with slightly lower than 5k ohm impedance (a 5k ohm volume control). This presents a 'heavier' load to the phono stage opamp than would an amp with 50k ohm input impedance (for instance). Also, the opamp with active EQ in its feedback loop will have a rising frequency response above the audio band (it will amplify frequencies higher than 20kHz more than it needs to). There's lots of high frequency noise caused by scraping a stone on the end of a super-light stick through a lumpy vinyl ravine. How well does that opamp handle trying to amplify all that HF noise? How much HF noise is there in that click or pop? Lots, right?

As was pointed out to me in a different thread (thank you restorer-john), contemporary amplifiers and home theater receivers use a microprocessor to adjust volume inside their DSP circuitry, controlled by a motorized potentiometer, which is in turn controlled by a remote control. This means there is no resistive attenuator knocking down signal levels to the input of the amplifier. The amplifier sees the full amplitude signal voltage from the source, no matter what the amp's volume control setting is. In the case of one example amplifier, its inputs overload with an approximately 4V signal applied. Our example phono click/pop far exceeds that. The amplifier will clip on this, no matter what. What will that sound like? (I don't know...)

I guess this all means that there is more going on in a phono stage than simple THD and SINAD can describe. These are useful metrics, as you do want low distortion and low noise, of course. But they don't tell you about overload threshold (which you'd like to be high) and overload behavior. If you read Amir's phono stage reviews, he does account for overload threshold. He'll tell you if a preamp has low headroom in his estimation.

Looking at the Schiit Mani 2 review, it looks like everything is pretty good except the headroom at very high frequencies.

1666443796998.png

The clipping threshold (i.e., headroom) is barely adequate up to 10kHz (25mV), but then worsens dramatically at 15kHz, and more so at 20kHz. Fortunately, signal amplitudes at these high frequencies are always very low (musical instruments don't make high amplitude 15kHz tones). But, what about sustained groove noise up there? Stylus tip resonance when hit by a click/pop?

Looking at the same measurements on the Parasound Zphono, we see that its headroom is independent of frequency, and the headroom is higher overall:

1666444034373.png


That's actually pretty impressive (max input = 42mV). The clipping threshold at a super-high 20kHz is pretty much the same as at midband frequencies. So, while the SINAD and THD scores are worse for the Zphono, its broadband headroom measures much better.

Which of the above two will 'sound better' playing records?

All other things being equal, will the Mani 2's lower noise and distortion result in better perceived sound quality from records?

Or will the Zphono's immunity from high frequency overload allow it to 'sound better' playing records, even though its noise and THD levels are worse than the Mani 2's?
--
 
Last edited:

Fontie

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Edit and completely rewritten…

The Solo wasn’t recommended based on its RIAA implementation. By all other metrics it’s very good, but for similar $ or only a few dollars more you can get something that aces the RIAA implementation.
which is, the Duo?
 

levimax

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I'm just a self-taught hobbyist, not a trained engineer, but I've been at this a while and I believe I understand a few basic things. (Although if anyone wants to correct me, please go right ahead. :))

One thing we know is true is that different amplifying devices have different headroom capabilities. Some popular opamps, for instance, cannot swing output signal voltage all the way from 'rail to rail'. That means that if you have an opamp phono stage with +/-12VDC supply, the opamps may not be able to swing the signal beyond about 20V peak to peak, which is 10V peak, which is about 7V rms. (I think I got that right. Anyone who knows better, please correct me! Thanks.)

Let's say we have a MM cartridge with 5mV nominal output signal. Let's also say that a major click/pop excites the needle enough to produce a pulse that is 16X that level (+24dB), so 0.005*16 = 80mV pulse. (This was measured and found to be likely in real life, in M. Jones "Valve Amplifiers Third Ed.")

Let's say our phono preamp has gain of 40dB, which is 100X.

If that pulse is cleanly amplified by the phono preamp, it's going to be 8V at the output.

As you can see, that pop will clip the opamp preamp, by a volt, or over 10% past its overload threshold. It's important that the preamp be able to handle this overload gracefully, and without lasting effects that make the overload more audible (and annoying) than it should be. Once the overload condition has ceased, the phono preamp should return to normal operation as instantly as possible (instant recovery from overload).

The pulse of signal voltage caused by this click/pop should not be a big deal for a traditional line stage or integrated amp being driven by the phono preamp because there will usually be a volume control (attenuator) between the phono preamp output and the amplifier input. Presumably you will not be running the volume control pinned to 10. If you have your volume control set to -20dB attenuation (output 10x less than the input) then the amplifier will see 0.8V from that big pop on the record. That's survivable. If you have the volume control set to a much louder -10dB attenuation (output 3.2x less than the input) then that pop will send 2.5V to the input of the amplifier, which will be very likely to overload it. So if you play your LPs with the volume control almost all the way up, you'll need to go to pro level gear capable of accepting a 4V input signal without overload. That's probably not necessary for home hi-fi.

Another limiting factor regarding headroom in budget phono preamps is how the RIAA EQ circuit is implemented. Some preamps use a single opamp per channel with the EQ in that opamp's feedback loop. This means the opamp must drive both the load (the following preamp or amplifier input) *and* the EQ network in its feedback loop, at the same time. Many contemporary desktop amplifiers have very low impedance inputs, some with slightly lower than 5k ohm impedance (a 5k ohm volume control). This presents a 'heavier' load to the phono stage opamp than would an amp with 50k ohm input impedance (for instance). Also, the opamp with active EQ in its feedback loop will have a rising frequency response above the audio band (it will amplify frequencies higher than 20kHz more than it needs to). There's lots of high frequency noise caused by scraping a stone on the end of a super-light stick through a lumpy vinyl ravine. How well does that opamp handle trying to amplify all that HF noise? How much HF noise is there in that click or pop? Lots, right?

As was pointed out to me in a different thread (thank you restorer-john), contemporary amplifiers and home theater receivers use a microprocessor to adjust volume inside their DSP circuitry, controlled by a motorized potentiometer, which is in turn controlled by a remote control. This means there is no resistive attenuator knocking down signal levels to the input of the amplifier. The amplifier sees the full amplitude signal voltage from the source, no matter what the amp's volume control setting is. In the case of one example amplifier, its inputs overload with an approximately 4V signal applied. Our example phono click/pop far exceeds that. The amplifier will clip on this, no matter what. What will that sound like? (I don't know...)

I guess this all means that there is more going on in a phono stage than simple THD and SINAD can describe. These are useful metrics, as you do want low distortion and low noise, of course. But they don't tell you about overload threshold (which you'd like to be high) and overload behavior. If you read Amir's phono stage reviews, he does account for overload threshold. He'll tell you if a preamp has low headroom in his estimation.

Looking at the Schiit Mani 2 review, it looks like everything is pretty good except the headroom at very high frequencies.

View attachment 238806
The clipping threshold (i.e., headroom) is fine up to 10kHz, but then worsens dramatically at 15kHz, and more so at 20kHz. Fortunately, signal amplitudes at these high frequencies are always very low (musical instruments don't make high amplitude 15kHz tones). But, what about sustained groove noise up there? Stylus tip resonance when hit by a click/pop?

Looking at the same measurements on the Parasound Zphono, we see that its headroom is independent of frequency, and the headroom is higher overall:

View attachment 238807

That's actually pretty impressive. The clipping threshold at a super-high 20kHz is pretty much the same as at midband frequencies. So, while the SINAD and THD scores are worse for the Zphono, its broadband headroom measures much better.

Which of the above two will 'sound better' playing records?

All other things being equal, will the Mani 2's lower noise and distortion result in better perceived sound quality from records?

Or will the Zphono's immunity from high frequency overload allow it to 'sound better' playing records, even though its noise and THD levels are worse than the Mani 2's?
--
You bring up a lot of good points which all lead to the conclusion that a TT phono stage has a lot more variables than a DAC to consider. The overload of DSP volume controls is very interesting as the common "more headroom is always better" argument kind of falls apart. Intuitively I think the Parasound is better suited to phono-pre duty but without some actual controlled listening tests it is hard to say. While "graceful recovery" from overload is desirable and may very well be the most important property of a phono-pre we have no information on this. Maybe @SIY, our resident expert can chime in? The other option is to always play clean and undamaged records.
 

rongon

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I figure a budget phono preamp is most likely to be used in a modest system, which suggests the records to be played will often be used/secondhand/vintage.
Therefore, I'd say that in a budget phono preamp, freedom from overload would be a desirable characteristic.
Priorities for a high end (expensive) phono preamp might be different.
 

rongon

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I also think there may be a relationship between gain and headroom, and SINAD and THD.

Comparing the ART Precision Phono Pre to the Parasound Zphono, I see that the SINAD scores are similar, but the Zphono accomplishes this with 10dB more gain.

The ART Precision Phono Pre (the "ART" from here out) has a rotary variable gain control, and it can be switched to MC gain. Amir tested it set to 34dB gain for MM, and 52dB gain for MC. SINAD was 76dB for the MM 34dB gain setting, 60dB for the MC 52dB gain setting. Now, both of those gain settings are very much on the low side. The subjective level from the output of an MM preamp with 34dB gain at 1kHz will sound much quieter than will the output from a CD player or DAC at the same amplifier volume setting. I generally like to see at least 40dB gain at 1kHz from a phono preamp, so that the subjective loudness level is close enough to that from a DAC so you're not forced to fiddle with the volume control when switching sources. It's a minor quibble, I suppose. Still, that's what I like.

What if the ART's front panel gain control is set so that the gain is 44dB for MM? What will the SINAD be then? Will THD go up much? (Can the ART deliver that much gain in its MM setting?) The review measurements suggest the answers are that SINAD will become worse and THD will go up. In other words, if you compare the ART set to 44dB gain against the Zphono with its higher gain, the Zphono will come out looking better in that more 'apples-to-apples' comparison.

Also, the headroom measurement for the ART came out very, very good, but that measurement was taken at a gain setting of 34dB. If you use the front panel gain control to raise that by 10dB, how much will that impact that impressive headroom figure? Again, measurements suggest that the headroom/clipping threshold will worsen at a higher gain setting. I'd expect it to come down to about the same level as from the Zphono -- which is still pretty good!

The ART Precision Phono Pre looks like a great choice except for its unavoidable channel matching problems, due to that front panel variable gain control. That will definitely mess with the stereo imaging/balance, making RIAA EQ variance pretty much a moot point. I think the ART should get demerits for that channel imbalance. But still, at $80 US, if it sounds pretty good in real life, that's a very good deal.

I see in the Comments that the channel imbalance was dismissed as inaudible at 0.5dB. I also saw a suggestion that phono preamps should include a balance control. Since a passive resistive balance control will always have insertion loss, that would be a terrible idea in a phono preamp. The last thing you can afford to do in a phono preamp is throw away precious gain. A balance control would severely impact the S/N ratio, and therefore SINAD unless implemented carefully -- and careful implementation would definitely increase the cost by a fair amount (another gain stage would be necessary).

Good engineering is a balancing act of necessary compromises. ART decided to add a variable gain control, and at this low price point that necessarily adds noise and channel imbalance. In a pro audio environment infinitely variable gain could be an important feature. In a home hi-fi environment it's not as compelling a feature. Or, that variable gain control could have been implemented with a decent quality switch and fixed resistors, which can be made so that it does not affect channel balance. The variable gain pot does allow finer adjustment, though. Again, that could be useful in a pro audio environment, but is not necessary for home hi-fi use.

Everything is a compromise.

The more I look at this, the better the Zphono looks to me. I think the review process is missing some apples-to-apples comparisons for the readership. The information is there if you're willing to do some work and infer the missing info ('connect the dots') for yourself. But I think a casual read-through based on SINAD and THD scores confuses things and might be unfair to some products.
 

Piatnik

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If Simaudio numbers are right, I guess it could be a good option. I currently use the 610LP, but owned the 310LP before. All of them seem to have a good S/N ratio. The 110LP could fall in your budget. They are very flexible regarding impedance matching and gain setting, but it must be done using dip switches. Since I only use one cartridge (DV-20X2L), this doesn’t bother me.

 

m_u

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Looking at the Schiit Mani 2 review, it looks like everything is pretty good except the headroom at very high frequencies.

View attachment 238806

--
That is a Mani headroom

Mani 2 headroom is :
index.php


Which is better than Parasound Zphono at 20khz by about 2-4Vrms and by about 25Vrms at all other measured frequencies
 
Last edited:

krichard2496

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SINAD is arguably the least important factor for measuring a phono stage when you consider that the noise floor of the LP medium itself is always going to exceed it. More important measurements are RIAA eq (easy to achieve a flat response) and overload headroom. Almost all budget phono stages fail at the second one. Truth be told the 2 best measuring budget phono stages when all things are considered are probably the Schiit Mani 2 and the Darlington Labs.
Our clients tend to say that the overload behavior of our designs improves (lessens) the audibility of surface noise. We attribute this due not only to our large overload margin, but the behavior during that excursion far above average program level.

The transfer function of our units "softly compresses" large peaks of surface noise, rounding them off. This behavior -- when combined with our unique RIAA implementation (which is not a single block of RIAA EQ sandwiched in between flat gain stages, even though we don't use active feedback) -- tends to dynamically compress the high frequencies more than the low frequencies, thus taking the sonic edge off of clicks.

Thus, even if a solid-state power amplifier is clipping on large clicks as well, we expect that it is clipping somewhat less than it otherwise would, while using a Darlington Labs phono preamp vs. a competitor's op-amp-based phono preamp unit with large overload margin (which as posters have noted is quite rare in any case). And those clicks which are passed through are moderately changed in total balance, with more relative energy now being contained in the lower frequencies of that discontinuity.
 
Last edited:

Jaimo

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I'm just a self-taught hobbyist, not a trained engineer, but I've been at this a while and I believe I understand a few basic things. (Although if anyone wants to correct me, please go right ahead. :))

One thing we know is true is that different amplifying devices have different headroom capabilities. Some popular opamps, for instance, cannot swing output signal voltage all the way from 'rail to rail'. That means that if you have an opamp phono stage with +/-12VDC supply, the opamps may not be able to swing the signal beyond about 20V peak to peak, which is 10V peak, which is about 7V rms. (I think I got that right. Anyone who knows better, please correct me! Thanks.)

Let's say we have a MM cartridge with 5mV nominal output signal. Let's also say that a major click/pop excites the needle enough to produce a pulse that is 16X that level (+24dB), so 0.005*16 = 80mV pulse. (This was measured and found to be likely in real life, in M. Jones "Valve Amplifiers Third Ed.")

Let's say our phono preamp has gain of 40dB, which is 100X.

If that pulse is cleanly amplified by the phono preamp, it's going to be 8V at the output.

As you can see, that pop will clip the opamp preamp, by a volt, or over 10% past its overload threshold. It's important that the preamp be able to handle this overload gracefully, and without lasting effects that make the overload more audible (and annoying) than it should be. Once the overload condition has ceased, the phono preamp should return to normal operation as instantly as possible (instant recovery from overload).

The pulse of signal voltage caused by this click/pop should not be a big deal for a traditional line stage or integrated amp being driven by the phono preamp because there will usually be a volume control (attenuator) between the phono preamp output and the amplifier input. Presumably you will not be running the volume control pinned to 10. If you have your volume control set to -20dB attenuation (output 10x less than the input) then the amplifier will see 0.8V from that big pop on the record. That's survivable. If you have the volume control set to a much louder -10dB attenuation (output 3.2x less than the input) then that pop will send 2.5V to the input of the amplifier, which will be very likely to overload it. So if you play your LPs with the volume control almost all the way up, you'll need to go to pro level gear capable of accepting a 4V input signal without overload. That's probably not necessary for home hi-fi.

Another limiting factor regarding headroom in budget phono preamps is how the RIAA EQ circuit is implemented. Some preamps use a single opamp per channel with the EQ in that opamp's feedback loop. This means the opamp must drive both the load (the following preamp or amplifier input) *and* the EQ network in its feedback loop, at the same time. Many contemporary desktop amplifiers have very low impedance inputs, some with slightly lower than 5k ohm impedance (a 5k ohm volume control). This presents a 'heavier' load to the phono stage opamp than would an amp with 50k ohm input impedance (for instance). Also, the opamp with active EQ in its feedback loop will have a rising frequency response above the audio band (it will amplify frequencies higher than 20kHz more than it needs to). There's lots of high frequency noise caused by scraping a stone on the end of a super-light stick through a lumpy vinyl ravine. How well does that opamp handle trying to amplify all that HF noise? How much HF noise is there in that click or pop? Lots, right?

As was pointed out to me in a different thread (thank you restorer-john), contemporary amplifiers and home theater receivers use a microprocessor to adjust volume inside their DSP circuitry, controlled by a motorized potentiometer, which is in turn controlled by a remote control. This means there is no resistive attenuator knocking down signal levels to the input of the amplifier. The amplifier sees the full amplitude signal voltage from the source, no matter what the amp's volume control setting is. In the case of one example amplifier, its inputs overload with an approximately 4V signal applied. Our example phono click/pop far exceeds that. The amplifier will clip on this, no matter what. What will that sound like? (I don't know...)

I guess this all means that there is more going on in a phono stage than simple THD and SINAD can describe. These are useful metrics, as you do want low distortion and low noise, of course. But they don't tell you about overload threshold (which you'd like to be high) and overload behavior. If you read Amir's phono stage reviews, he does account for overload threshold. He'll tell you if a preamp has low headroom in his estimation.

Looking at the Schiit Mani 2 review, it looks like everything is pretty good except the headroom at very high frequencies.

View attachment 238806
The clipping threshold (i.e., headroom) is barely adequate up to 10kHz (25mV), but then worsens dramatically at 15kHz, and more so at 20kHz. Fortunately, signal amplitudes at these high frequencies are always very low (musical instruments don't make high amplitude 15kHz tones). But, what about sustained groove noise up there? Stylus tip resonance when hit by a click/pop?

Looking at the same measurements on the Parasound Zphono, we see that its headroom is independent of frequency, and the headroom is higher overall:

View attachment 238807

That's actually pretty impressive (max input = 42mV). The clipping threshold at a super-high 20kHz is pretty much the same as at midband frequencies. So, while the SINAD and THD scores are worse for the Zphono, its broadband headroom measures much better.

Which of the above two will 'sound better' playing records?

All other things being equal, will the Mani 2's lower noise and distortion result in better perceived sound quality from records?

Or will the Zphono's immunity from high frequency overload allow it to 'sound better' playing records, even though its noise and THD levels are worse than the Mani 2's?
--
I wonder if using a Step Up Transformer in front of the preamp will curtail pops and clicks and recover more gracefully than a clipping amplifier. I have used a Softone SUT with my Denon DL103R cartridge for years and never experienced any harshness or clipping around pops and clicks - but then again, my phono pre is a tube based Audio Research SP8.
 

Jaimo

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Disclaimer:
I sold all my phono gear after collecting for 40+ years and “I’m free”. Now I’ll probably have to give away 1000+ CDs away as they have no value.
Hang on to em CD's - there's going to come a time when future gen teenagers will be thrilled by the ritual of loading those silver disks into a CD deck while admiring the cover art...
 

Chrispy

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Hang on to em CD's - there's going to come a time when future gen teenagers will be thrilled by the ritual of loading those silver disks into a CD deck while admiring the cover art...
If their eyes are still good enough :)
 
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