Phono Pre-amp to supplement WiiM Ultra

[SoundMagic]

Many are quite competent, depends on your specific needs to an extent. You've reviewed the ASR reviews of such?

My specific need is a phono preamp within $300 that sounds better than WiiM’s inbuilt one. I have no experience hearing all the preamps ever built so asking folks who own a WiiM and have experience with a better one.

 

[Chrispy]

My specific need is a phono preamp within $300 that sounds better than WiiM’s inbuilt one. I have no experience hearing all the preamps ever built so asking folks who own a WiiM and have experience with a better one.

Define how one would "sound better"? What is your criteria?

 

[SoundMagic]

Define how one would "sound better"? What is your criteria?

The WiiM’s phono stage sounds bassy with lack of details my ortofon blue can extract. The only better reference I have heard is a Rotel flagship integrated that had controlled bass and much much higher detail and better stereo separation and soundstage. Which the WiiM lacks and yes the numbers in the reviews does not provide this experience.

 

[Chrispy]

The WiiM’s phono stage sounds bassy with lack of details my ortofon blue can extract. The only better reference I have heard is a Rotel flagship integrated that had controlled bass and much much higher detail and better stereo separation and soundstage. Which the WiiM lacks and yes the numbers in the reviews does not provide this experience.

That sounds very odd. You should measure the difference to be credible. Amps don't provide much in the way of separation let alone soundstage. I think you have read too maby idiotic subjective reviews myself....

 

[SoundMagic]

That sounds very odd. You should measure the difference to be credible. Amps don't provide much in the way of separation let alone soundstage. I think you have read too maby idiotic subjective reviews myself....

You mean the ones in magazines? I don’t read magazines. Or are you talking about reviews here in ASR that was suggested? I take them with a grain of salt cause I don’t have the bat ears to hear the SINAD differences. All I can say is whether the music I play in my system sounds good to me or not good. I’ve tried Burr Brown, ESS, TI, AKM dacs and they all sound the same whether $100 or $10000 whether 70 SINAD or 120.

Phono stage not so, each has its own signature. Whether the contributor is the cartridge, loading, resistance, capacitance, rubber, metal god knows. And yes I hear a difference in their sound signatures.

And like I said I don’t have the means to measure them. I only have my funny ears .

 

[Chrispy]

You mean the ones in magazines? I don’t read magazines. Or are you talking about reviews here in ASR that was suggested? I take them with a grain of salt cause I don’t have the bat ears to hear the SINAD differences. All I can say is whether the music I play in my system sounds good to me or not good. I’ve tried Burr Brown, ESS, TI, AKM dacs and they all sound the same whether $100 or $10000 whether 70 SINAD or 120.

Phono stage not so, each has its own signature. Whether the contributor is the cartridge, loading, resistance, capacitance, rubber, metal god knows. And yes I hear a difference in their sound signatures.

And like I said I don’t have the means to measure them. I only have my funny ears .

Yes, mostly the subjective reviews. What ASR reviews provide the such audible/measureable differences as you claim?

 

[esk]

My specific need is a phono preamp within $300 that sounds better than WiiM’s inbuilt one. I have no experience hearing all the preamps ever built so asking folks who own a WiiM and have experience with a better one.

I have a Musical Fidelity V90-LPS connected to the Ultra. A while ago I too was looking for the "best bang for buck" phono preamp and settled with the MuFi. I would have liked control over capacitance but for that money there will be some compromises. To my ears it sounds great, for a budget preamp. Although now I am planning to upgrade it maybe to a MuFi MX-VYNL, so that I will have the options for different capacitances and I can continue to use my 12V linear power supply with it.

 

[SoundMagic]

Yes, mostly the subjective reviews. What ASR reviews provide the such audible/measureable differences as you claim?

Yes, listening to music is a subjective experience. If not people would read the 1s and 0s and the Sign waves in oscilloscopes and go what a superb composition it is. Beethoven should have done 1001101011 instead of 1000101110.

 

[SoundMagic]

I have a Musical Fidelity V90-LPS connected to the Ultra. A while ago I too was looking for the "best bang for buck" phono preamp and settled with the MuFi. I would have liked control over capacitance but for that money there will be some compromises. To my ears it sounds great, for a budget preamp. Although now I am planning to upgrade it maybe to a MuFi MX-VYNL, so that I will have the options for different capacitances and I can continue to use my 12V linear power supply with it.

Nice. Have you tried anything else?

 

[Chrispy]

Yes, listening to music is a subjective experience. If not people would read the 1s and 0s and the Sign waves in oscilloscopes and go what a superb composition it is. Beethoven should have done 1001101011 instead of 1000101110.

LOL I definitely am not in that strange world you're in....

 

[Mnyb]

what are we comparing ? different riaa exclusively or compared to a digital version of the same album ? mastering can be very different ?

 

[SoundMagic]

what are we comparing ? different riaa exclusively or compared to a digital version of the same album ? mastering can be very different ?

Comparing WiiM Ultra inbuilt phono stage to other external phono stage to use with it to get a better sonic experience

 

[somebodyelse]

Good point. How do I measure RIAA? Any readily available tools to do that?

I already pointed you to the measurement script thread. You would need one of the supported test records (~£50), and it will show you the system response including the RIAA, the cartridge and the effect of the load (combined capacitance of the cable and the phono amp). The online version of the script is a recent addition that makes it even easier to use.

The lack of detail you mention could be the effect of different loading changing top end response. Some amps include adjustable load to account for this. Parks Audio use DSP to adjust the response instead of adjustable load (Puffin, Waxwing). Different rumble filter implementation can affect LF response. In both cases you really need to measure to be sure.

Lack of accurate level matching is a known cause of audible differences. That would require a test record with a continuous tone, and a multimeter or audio recording software to measure the level.

 

[EngineerNate]

It’s odd to me that folks come to ASR then take it personal when other folks ask about measurements. That’s… kind of this place’s whole schtick.

The fact you don’t like something in the sound is enough. It’s being caused by something, but without testing we don’t know what.

No harm in trying something different. Assuming the mortgage is paid and the kids are fed, metaphorically speaking.

For my part I was curious if this was based on a measurement, your own listening, or the all too common “other people on forums told me my equipment is bad and now I have a neurosis” that I too have fallen victim to.

My suspicion is something about the capacitive loading the WiiM is putting on the cart isn’t agreeing with your ears. I’d find a phono stage with dip switches to play with the resistive and capacitive loading put on the cartridge and tune it to your liking.

The Emotiva is such a phono stage and measures good enough that it’ll be entirely transparent from a SNR standpoint. I’m sure there are others.

Cheers
Nate

 

[JeremyFife]

The WiiM Ultra phono stage isn't bad actually for MM cartridges. Slightly high noise (but if you don't hear that then it's not an issue) and a flat enough RIAA profile. As others have said, the absence of a rumble filter can be fixed with EQ and applying room correction is going to have a much bigger benefit than anything else. There's no evidence of problems with the low frequencies.

It would be worth just living with it for a week or two, often you get used to new equipment (our brains recalibrate) and initial problems go away.

Alternatively, the usual suspects for inexpensive but very good phono stages are: Cambridge Audio Duo or Schiit Mani 2. I think the Fosi X5 has earned a place here. Personally I'd love a Michael Fidler Spartan (he seems like such a nice guy!) and the Parks Waxwing is probably top of the heap. I have the iFi Zen Phono 2 and don't mind it at all.

Live with it for a while; the WiiM is objectively good enough and you might just learn to like it

 

[EngineerNate]

The emotiva looks to be on sale at the moment.

Review and Measurements of Emotiva XPS-1 Phono Amp

This is a review and measurements of the Emotiva XPS-1 Phono stage/pre-amplifier. It is on kind loan from a member. The XPS-1 costs US $199 from Emotiva or Amazon. The XPS-1 looks and feels fantastic despite its bargain price: It reminds me of a very high quality piece of instrumentation...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I misremembered, it only has adjustable resistive loading.

 

[SoundMagic]

I already pointed you to the measurement script thread. You would need one of the supported test records (~£50), and it will show you the system response including the RIAA, the cartridge and the effect of the load (combined capacitance of the cable and the phono amp). The online version of the script is a recent addition that makes it even easier to use.

The lack of detail you mention could be the effect of different loading changing top end response. Some amps include adjustable load to account for this. Parks Audio use DSP to adjust the response instead of adjustable load (Puffin, Waxwing). Different rumble filter implementation can affect LF response. In both cases you really need to measure to be sure.

Lack of accurate level matching is a known cause of audible differences. That would require a test record with a continuous tone, and a multimeter or audio recording software to measure the level.

Yes I did briefly take a look at the link you provided. Thanks for the pointers. I will take a deeper look at it. Never knew something like this existed.

 

[SoundMagic]

It’s odd to me that folks come to ASR then take it personal when other folks ask about measurements. That’s… kind of this place’s whole schtick.

The fact you don’t like something in the sound is enough. It’s being caused by something, but without testing we don’t know what.

No harm in trying something different. Assuming the mortgage is paid and the kids are fed, metaphorically speaking.

For my part I was curious if this was based on a measurement, your own listening, or the all too common “other people on forums told me my equipment is bad and now I have a neurosis” that I too have fallen victim to.

My suspicion is something about the capacitive loading the WiiM is putting on the cart isn’t agreeing with your ears. I’d find a phono stage with dip switches to play with the resistive and capacitive loading put on the cartridge and tune it to your liking.

The Emotiva is such a phono stage and measures good enough that it’ll be entirely transparent from a SNR standpoint. I’m sure there are others.

Cheers
Nate

Mine is purely subjective listening experiment. Like you said, I don’t want to fall into the trap of someone said this and I have to have it. What I like is a neutral presentation that i found and got accustomed to listening to music without tone controls.

Strangely, the WiiM Ultra that has a flat frequency response in the measurements turned out to be a bit bassy in my system with lacking clarity. On the other hand the Cambridge audio solo has a bass bump and in my listening sounds less bassy than the WiiM and much more neutral and detailed.

It could be different factors, my cartridge, turntable, capacitance etc.

 

[EngineerNate]

actual RIAA response curve performance will be influenced by how the stage loads the cartridge and how that impacts its inherent frequency response. It’s not nearly as straightforward as other mediums.

 

[SoundMagic]

The WiiM Ultra phono stage isn't bad actually for MM cartridges. Slightly high noise (but if you don't hear that then it's not an issue) and a flat enough RIAA profile. As others have said, the absence of a rumble filter can be fixed with EQ and applying room correction is going to have a much bigger benefit than anything else. There's no evidence of problems with the low frequencies.

It would be worth just living with it for a week or two, often you get used to new equipment (our brains recalibrate) and initial problems go away.

Alternatively, the usual suspects for inexpensive but very good phono stages are: Cambridge Audio Duo or Schiit Mani 2. I think the Fosi X5 has earned a place here. Personally I'd love a Michael Fidler Spartan (he seems like such a nice guy!) and the Parks Waxwing is probably top of the heap. I have the iFi Zen Phono 2 and don't mind it at all.

Live with it for a while; the WiiM is objectively good enough and you might just learn to like it

Yes not saying WiiM’s phone stage is bad or anything like it. I have heard better is what I’m at. And don’t want to throw some big bugs either. I might even try EQing and see if that brings out some clarity.