Phono Pre-amp to supplement WiiM Ultra

[SoundMagic]

Hi Folks, My first post. Grabbed a WiiM Ultra on Black Friday sale. I see the phono section on it is not that good sounding. Too much bassy but not much detailed. So exploring what external phono preamps can I supplement it with. I’m a casual record listener (MM only on an Fluance RT85 with Ortofon Blue cartridge) and it is not my main source so don’t need a thousand dollar preamp. Something around $100 to $300 will do.

I listen to KEF LS50 Meta with a B&W 608 subwoofer. Rotel 1582MKii amp and trying to use the WiiM Ultra as the main preamp.

I got the Rotel bug when I listened to their 60th anniversary flagship integrated amplifier that I had for a while but returned due to cost and plunged on a used rotel power amplifier with the same spec. I liked the preamp on the integrated very much, it brought details I never heard before with Yamahas, Denons and Onkyos on their integrated or AVRs.

Currently I’m trying the Cambridge Audio Alva Solo that seemed to be closer to the Rotels but not quite there. I returned an iFi phono air since only one channel had sound out of box so can’t say much about it.

What else can I try? Or is the high dollar Rotel preamp the answer? Anything better than it?

 

[Power Pop 23]

Hi Folks, My first post. Grabbed a WiiM Ultra on Black Friday sale. I see the phono section on it is not that good sounding. Too much bassy but not much detailed. So exploring what external phono preamps can I supplement it with. I’m a casual record listener (MM only on an Fluance RT85 with Ortofon Blue cartridge) and it is not my main source so don’t need a thousand dollar preamp. Something around $100 to $300 will do.

I listen to KEF LS50 Meta with a B&W 608 subwoofer. Rotel 1582MKii amp and trying to use the WiiM Ultra as the main preamp.

I got the Rotel bug when I listened to their 60th anniversary flagship integrated amplifier that I had for a while but returned due to cost and plunged on a used rotel power amplifier with the same spec. I liked the preamp on the integrated very much, it brought details I never heard before with Yamahas, Denons and Onkyos on their integrated or AVRs.

Currently I’m trying the Cambridge Audio Alva Solo that seemed to be closer to the Rotels but not quite there. I returned an iFi phono air since only one channel had sound out of box so can’t say much about it.

What else can I try? Or is the high dollar Rotel preamp the answer? Anything better than it?

Welcome to ASR !

Take a look at the review for the Fosi Audio Box X5 phono preamp

Fosi Audio Box X5 Phono Preamp Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Fosi Audio Box X5 stereo Phono stage. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $109.99. Company manages to bring a touch of class in a category that is universally utilitarian with those rounded corners and orange power button. Flexibility...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[SoundMagic]

Welcome to ASR !

Take a look at the review for the Fosi Audio Box X5 phono preamp

Fosi Audio Box X5 Phono Preamp Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Fosi Audio Box X5 stereo Phono stage. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $109.99. Company manages to bring a touch of class in a category that is universally utilitarian with those rounded corners and orange power button. Flexibility...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Thanks. Will give it a try. I prefer named brands but 100 bucks will not hurt trying. Looks like it doesn’t have a subsonic filter though, or does it?

 

[Power Pop 23]

Thanks. Will give it a try. I prefer named brands but 100 bucks will not hurt trying. Looks like it doesn’t have a subsonic filter though, or does it?

No, I don't see that feature.

 

[MoreWatts]

The phono input of the Wiim Ultra digitizes the analog input signal. This means RoomFit's DSP is applied, which is very capable room correction software. Folks at the WiiM forums consistently say this works wonderfully with the phono input as well.

They do mention that changing the conversion rates may decrease 'perceived' noise. For instance, sample at 96 instead of 192, which can be set in the WiiM.

I suggest you mess around with the Ultra's settings a bit more before you spring for a seperate phono stage. Vinyl sounds better with room correction applied, just as any source would.

 

[somebodyelse]

You can use the Ultra's EQ to do a subsonic filter, and to compensate for imperfect loading - with the EQ preset tied to the input so it gets enabled and disabled automatically when switching input. It doesn't (yet) have the LF Crossfeed on the Spartan 15 and up, or the Parks Waxwing. See the phono measurement script thread for how to measure cartridge response for correction.

 

[EngineerNate]

Is the bassy + no detail judgement based on measured riaa compliance or subjective commentary?

I have no problem believing it's not the most sophisticated unit but I'm still curious.

 

[SoundMagic]

The phono input of the Wiim Ultra digitizes the analog input signal. This means RoomFit's DSP is applied, which is very capable room correction software. Folks at the WiiM forums consistently say this works wonderfully with the phono input as well.

They do mention that changing the conversion rates may decrease 'perceived' noise. For instance, sample at 96 instead of 192, which can be set in the WiiM.

I suggest you mess around with the Ultra's settings a bit more before you spring for a seperate phono stage. Vinyl sounds better with room correction applied, just as any source would.

Yes I have set it to 192KHz for the inputs as suggested in Amir’s review to get the best performance. I will try playing with the settings. But my guess is it is not the sampling rate but the phono stage itself (sounds just like any other cheap ones). I also tried a prozor phono just for the gigs and the WiiM’s phono is just a bit better than that $20 preamp and nothing phenomenal.

 

[SoundMagic]

You can use the Ultra's EQ to do a subsonic filter, and to compensate for imperfect loading - with the EQ preset tied to the input so it gets enabled and disabled automatically when switching input. It doesn't (yet) have the LF Crossfeed on the Spartan 15 and up, or the Parks Waxwing. See the phono measurement script thread for how to measure cartridge response for correction.

Thanks that is a great idea I will try on the ones that does not come with a subsonic filter.

 

[SoundMagic]

Is the bassy + no detail judgement based on measured riaa compliance or subjective commentary?

I have no problem believing it's not the most sophisticated unit but I'm still curious.

I have a strange measuring device with me, my ears. No, it was not any scientific measure.

I heard the Rotel to be superior in all frequency band and was extracting details from the records that was masked by another preamp. Some background voices are completely masked by WiiM whereas heard via the Rotel.

Anyways it’s not a apples to apples comparison the Rotel flagship costs 4.5k compared to WiiM at $300.

Just figuring what comes closer for not much dough.

 

[DVDdoug]

Too much bassy but not much detailed.

Amir's Review shows good frequency response within 1/2dB. Nothing to indicate that it's bassy or "lacks detail" (unless yours is defective). Or, maybe the one you're comparing it to has variations/inaccuracies that you happen like...?

I have a strange measuring device with me, my ears. No, it was not any scientific measure.

In casual or uncontrolled listening tests our ears are simply not reliable. But proper controlled listening tests CAN be useful:

What is a blind ABX test?
Controlled Audio Blind Listening Tests (video)

Measurements are even more reliable but we don't always know the thresholds of audibility. A measured difference doesn't always mean and audible difference. If you have the right equipment, you can measure small differences that we can't hear.

It's possible that the RIAA EQ in the preamp is off (which will make the frequency response wrong) and the capacitance load on the phono cartridge (which includes all of the wiring between the cartridge and preamp, plus the input capacitance of the preamp) makes a difference in the high-frequency response . And, different preamps can have different capacitance.

Anyways it’s not a apples to apples comparison the Rotel flagship costs 4.5k compared to WiiM at $300.

It's not super expensive to make a phono preamp that's better than analog records.

But the Parks Waxwing ($500 USD) might be worth considering. It's got noise reduction to reduce the vinyl clicks & pops.

The phono cartridge is another "weak-link" that usually makes a bigger difference than the preamp. Mostly, the cartridge affects frequency response which, like "bad" RIAA EQ, can be improved with EQ or tone controls.

the records that was masked by another preamp. Some background voices are completely masked by WiiM whereas heard via the Rotel.

I think you don't understand what masking is. The noise would have to be super-loud to mask (drown-out) the signal and you'd be complaining of noise rather than masking.

Audiophoolery is also worth reading. It explains the few REAL characteristics of "sound quality".

 

[SoundMagic]

Yes I have set it to 192KHz for the inputs as suggested in Amir’s review to get the best performance. I will try playing with the settings. But my guess is it is not the sampling rate but the phono stage itself (sounds just like any other cheap ones). I also tried a prozor phono just for the gigs and the WiiM’s phono is just a bit better than that $20 preamp and nothing phenomenal.

I tried changing the input sampling rates and the sound remained the same. Looks like the sample rates don’t affect anything atleast in audible range.

 

[SoundMagic]

Amir's Review shows good frequency response within 1/2dB. Nothing to indicate that it's bassy or "lacks detail" (unless yours is defective). Or, maybe the one you're comparing it to has variations/inaccuracies that you happen like...?


In casual or uncontrolled listening tests our ears are simply not reliable. But proper controlled listening tests CAN be useful:

What is a blind ABX test?
Controlled Audio Blind Listening Tests (video)

Measurements are even more reliable but we don't always know the thresholds of audibility. A measured difference doesn't always mean and audible difference. If you have the right equipment, you can measure small differences that we can't hear.

It's possible that the RIAA EQ in the preamp is off (which will make the frequency response wrong) and the capacitance load on the phono cartridge (which includes all of the wiring between the cartridge and preamp, plus the input capacitance of the preamp) makes a difference in the high-frequency response . And, different preamps can have different capacitance.


It's not super expensive to make a phono preamp that's better than analog records.

But the Parks Waxwing ($500 USD) might be worth considering. It's got noise reduction to reduce the vinyl clicks & pops.

The phono cartridge is another "weak-link" that usually makes a bigger difference than the preamp. Mostly, the cartridge affects frequency response which, like "bad" RIAA EQ, can be improved with EQ or tone controls.


I think you don't understand what masking is. The noise would have to be super-loud to mask (drown-out) the signal and you'd be complaining of noise rather than masking.

Audiophoolery is also worth reading. It explains the few REAL characteristics of "sound quality".

Right now I’m trying 3 phono preamps WiiM Ultra, Cambridge audio Alva solo, parasound 200 pre and the other two rejected Prozor phono and failed ifi phono air.

In each cases, only the phono stages changes.in the system. Amplifier, cabling, room remains the same and the listener too. Same track repeated over and over to get those detail clues. Sound matched with db meter.

So far Cambridge Audio Solo > Parasound 200 Pre > WiiM Ultra.

Like I said I don’t have multi thousand dollar scientific equipment, I only have a silly pair of ears to judge what to keep in my “room” .

I can try the Parx Waxwing you suggested but it’s a bit pricey for the few records I listen to.

 

[Chrispy]

Hi Folks, My first post. Grabbed a WiiM Ultra on Black Friday sale. I see the phono section on it is not that good sounding. Too much bassy but not much detailed. So exploring what external phono preamps can I supplement it with. I’m a casual record listener (MM only on an Fluance RT85 with Ortofon Blue cartridge) and it is not my main source so don’t need a thousand dollar preamp. Something around $100 to $300 will do.

I listen to KEF LS50 Meta with a B&W 608 subwoofer. Rotel 1582MKii amp and trying to use the WiiM Ultra as the main preamp.

I got the Rotel bug when I listened to their 60th anniversary flagship integrated amplifier that I had for a while but returned due to cost and plunged on a used rotel power amplifier with the same spec. I liked the preamp on the integrated very much, it brought details I never heard before with Yamahas, Denons and Onkyos on their integrated or AVRs.

Currently I’m trying the Cambridge Audio Alva Solo that seemed to be closer to the Rotels but not quite there. I returned an iFi phono air since only one channel had sound out of box so can’t say much about it.

What else can I try? Or is the high dollar Rotel preamp the answer? Anything better than it?

So you think the RIAA correction is off or something? Have you measured?

 

[SoundMagic]

So you think the RIAA correction is off or something? Have you measured?

Good point. How do I measure RIAA? Any readily available tools to do that?

 

[Chrispy]

Good point. How do I measure RIAA? Any readily available tools to do that?

You could look at reviews here on asr for that gear.....unlikely that's the issue IMO, tho. More likely your basic setup/gear.

 

[SoundMagic]

You could look at reviews here on asr for that gear.....unlikely that's the issue IMO, tho. More likely your basic setup/gear.

I did check the reviews. The numbers are just numbers. What sounds better in my setup especially replacing the inbuilt WiiM Ultra phono stage with a better sounding one is what I’m looking for.

I have run roomfit in WiiM and finetuned the subwoofer settings precisely. Whether I turn on roomfit or not, there is no perceivable difference in sound now. So the room is taken care off and almost the whole gear except the phone stage in WiiM.

 

[Chrispy]

I did check the reviews. The numbers are just numbers. What sounds better in my setup especially replacing the inbuilt WiiM Ultra phono stage with a better sounding one is what I’m looking for.

I have run roomfit in WiiM and finetuned the subwoofer settings precisely. Whether I turn on roomfit or not, there is no perceivable difference in sound now. So the room is taken care off and almost the whole gear except the phone stage in WiiM.

Vague comparisons yield vague results.

 

[SoundMagic]

Vague comparisons yield vague results.

You have an unvague suggestion of a phono preamp I can try?

 

[Chrispy]

You have an unvague suggestion of a phono preamp I can try?

Many are quite competent, depends on your specific needs to an extent. You've reviewed the ASR reviews of such?